Iowa St. hires McDermott and other coaching changes

[snoodmonger]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

[SouthSideRyan]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

[snoodmonger]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

 

No more ignorant than saying Self can't coach.

 

Ask most people who the top all-time programs in CBB are, you'll hear Duke, UK, UNC, IU, UCLA, KU. Rarely will you hear UI. That's what makes them a 2nd tier program.

[SouthSideRyan]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

 

No more ignorant than saying Self can't coach.

 

Ask most people who the top all-time programs in CBB are, you'll hear Duke, UK, UNC, IU, UCLA, KU. Rarely will you hear UI. That's what makes them a 2nd tier program.

 

One of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things is just not the same.

[snoodmonger]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

 

No more ignorant than saying Self can't coach.

 

Ask most people who the top all-time programs in CBB are, you'll hear Duke, UK, UNC, IU, UCLA, KU. Rarely will you hear UI. That's what makes them a 2nd tier program.

 

One of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things is just not the same.

 

Smack-talk from the fan of a team whose best season is a runner-up finish. You can pretend all day KU isn't one of the premier CBB programs. Doesn't make it true.

[SouthSideRyan]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

 

No more ignorant than saying Self can't coach.

 

Ask most people who the top all-time programs in CBB are, you'll hear Duke, UK, UNC, IU, UCLA, KU. Rarely will you hear UI. That's what makes them a 2nd tier program.

 

One of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things is just not the same.

 

Smack-talk from the fan of a team whose best season is a runner-up finish. You can pretend all day KU isn't one of the premier CBB programs. Doesn't make it true.

 

Your definition of 1st tier programs seems to be based on history, and I can't think of a single non-Kansas fan who would put Kansas in the same class as UCLA, IU, UK, Duke, or or UNC. Nevermind that making a tier of programs based on what they've done over the past 100 years or so rather than what htey're doing now is pretty lame. If we're talking present tense, yes, KU is on the 1st tier, as is Illinois.

[snoodmonger]

Calling U of I a 2nd tier program is just plain ignorant.

 

No more ignorant than saying Self can't coach.

 

Ask most people who the top all-time programs in CBB are, you'll hear Duke, UK, UNC, IU, UCLA, KU. Rarely will you hear UI. That's what makes them a 2nd tier program.

 

One of these things just doesn't belong here, one of these things is just not the same.

 

Smack-talk from the fan of a team whose best season is a runner-up finish. You can pretend all day KU isn't one of the premier CBB programs. Doesn't make it true.

 

Your definition of 1st tier programs seems to be based on history, and I can't think of a single non-Kansas fan who would put Kansas in the same class as UCLA, IU, UK, Duke, or or UNC. Nevermind that making a tier of programs based on what they've done over the past 100 years or so rather than what htey're doing now is pretty lame. If we're talking present tense, yes, KU is on the 1st tier, as is Illinois.

 

Then your friends don't know much about college hoops. KU is one of CBB's premier programs. Most sportswriters will say it, and most fans will say it (with the exception of MU, KSU, and UI fans.) Illinois is a good program. KU is a blue-blood. And yes, history does play a part in that, whether it's fair or not.

 

That's why Self left UI for KU. It's a better program, a more premier program. UNC fans can say the same thing about KU. It's a top 3 program. KU is a top 5.

[hawkeyecub]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

[illiniguy]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

[Chocolate Milk]

U of I is second tier.

[illiniguy]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

Right because last year we had Dee a top 20 player, Deron a top 75, Roger and James top 150, and Luther according to some sites a top 300. Meanwhile Bruce has Gordon a top 5, Carlwee a top 35, Semrau a top 50 a one point, Pruitt a top 70, Cole and Tisdale top 100's. I would say if he lands Rose, Tucker, or Freeman he has outrecruited old B3 hile they were both at Illinois. But, yeah you are right we will never be as good as last year with all those McDonalds All Americans we had. :roll:

[hawkeyecub]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

[XZero771679666304]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

 

Rush is gone as soon as he can be. If the age limit hadn't been put in place, he would have bypassed college altogether. Thinking that Rush and Wright will stick around for the program is a fool's hope.

 

As for Self, he can coach, but not nearly as well as he can recruit. IMO, the success he has had has been more a product of riding the talent more than brilliant coaching. And let's not forget that as good a recruiter as Self is, it's not like he has a long history of it like Coach K or Roy Williams. And if I am not mistaken, Gordon his a more highly rated recruit than any that Self brought to Champaign. Sure, that may be a product of Weber parlaying the success of Self's recruits into his own, but no more than Self building off Roy Williams' success.

 

And UI will get back to or near 2005 level in 2008 or 2009, IMO. Especially if Weber can land Rose. Illinois has gotten a lot more press than usual in the past few years, and that is definately going to be a boon to Weber's recruiting efforts.

[Mark_R]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

 

Rush is gone as soon as he can be. If the age limit hadn't been put in place, he would have bypassed college altogether. Thinking that Rush and Wright will stick around for the program is a fool's hope.

 

As for Self, he can coach, but not nearly as well as he can recruit. IMO, the success he has had has been more a product of riding the talent more than brilliant coaching. And let's not forget that as good a recruiter as Self is, it's not like he has a long history of it like Coach K or Roy Williams. And if I am not mistaken, Gordon his a more highly rated recruit than any that Self brought to Champaign. Sure, that may be a product of Weber parlaying the success of Self's recruits into his own, but no more than Self building off Roy Williams' success.

 

And UI will get back to or near 2005 level in 2008 or 2009, IMO. Especially if Weber can land Rose. Illinois has gotten a lot more press than usual in the past few years, and that is definately going to be a boon to Weber's recruiting efforts.

 

If Gordon or Rose are as good as advertised, what makes you think they won't turn pro after one season? If you're so confident about Wright and Rush turning pro, Gordon and Rose (especially Rose since he plays a more 'in demand' position) should be just as likely to make that jump, imo.

[SouthSideRyan]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

 

Championship appearances in 64, 78, and 86 as well while Kansas had a drought from the last 50s til 88.

[illiniguy]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

Kansas has never had an extended run like Duke has. Hell I can think of more programs you could argue to be at the level KU is. UCONN, Mich St., Arizona, Ohio State, etc. It kills me how kansas fans think that Kansas is responsible for college basketball. Get over yourselves. You have two national championships. Hell Lew Alcindor has more history than that.

[illiniguy]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

 

Rush is gone as soon as he can be. If the age limit hadn't been put in place, he would have bypassed college altogether. Thinking that Rush and Wright will stick around for the program is a fool's hope.

 

As for Self, he can coach, but not nearly as well as he can recruit. IMO, the success he has had has been more a product of riding the talent more than brilliant coaching. And let's not forget that as good a recruiter as Self is, it's not like he has a long history of it like Coach K or Roy Williams. And if I am not mistaken, Gordon his a more highly rated recruit than any that Self brought to Champaign. Sure, that may be a product of Weber parlaying the success of Self's recruits into his own, but no more than Self building off Roy Williams' success.

 

And UI will get back to or near 2005 level in 2008 or 2009, IMO. Especially if Weber can land Rose. Illinois has gotten a lot more press than usual in the past few years, and that is definately going to be a boon to Weber's recruiting efforts.

 

If Gordon or Rose are as good as advertised, what makes you think they won't turn pro after one season? If you're so confident about Wright and Rush turning pro, Gordon and Rose (especially Rose since he plays a more 'in demand' position) should be just as likely to make that jump, imo.

Could happen, but they are guards. Usually guards stick around longer, but good point none the less.

[XZero771679666304]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

 

There is a real ebb and flow to these things, IMO. A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, but Kansas hasn't looked like a top 5 in a while. I really don't buy the notion of evaluating programs based on overall history. UCLA is a good example. Historically, they have been the best, but they are not one of the top 5 or even 10 programs right now.

 

These recruits are 16, 17 and 18 year old kids, and I am fairly certain that they are more concerned with what they know from current coaches and the media rather than what the likes of John Wooden, Adolph Rupp or Phog Allen did when their parents or grandparents were children. And it is the recruits that dictate the future of a program.

 

To me, the bottom line is whar programs have done recently.

[XZero771679666304]

There's little chance Rush and Wright both go pro.

 

Collins is "on track" to qualify, whatever that means.

 

I won't have the Self can't coach argument because it's pointless. You think he can't. You're wrong. He has 3 elite eights. He's got a great career winning %. He's got multiple conference titles. He took a team of FR and SO to the Big XII championship. He coached the hell out of that team.

 

If you really though he couldn't coach, you wouldn't be so bitter about him leaving. But deep down, you know UI can't get back to the 2005 level with Weber because he won't bring in the quality of players, Gordon notwithstanding.

 

Rush is gone as soon as he can be. If the age limit hadn't been put in place, he would have bypassed college altogether. Thinking that Rush and Wright will stick around for the program is a fool's hope.

 

As for Self, he can coach, but not nearly as well as he can recruit. IMO, the success he has had has been more a product of riding the talent more than brilliant coaching. And let's not forget that as good a recruiter as Self is, it's not like he has a long history of it like Coach K or Roy Williams. And if I am not mistaken, Gordon his a more highly rated recruit than any that Self brought to Champaign. Sure, that may be a product of Weber parlaying the success of Self's recruits into his own, but no more than Self building off Roy Williams' success.

 

And UI will get back to or near 2005 level in 2008 or 2009, IMO. Especially if Weber can land Rose. Illinois has gotten a lot more press than usual in the past few years, and that is definately going to be a boon to Weber's recruiting efforts.

 

If Gordon or Rose are as good as advertised, what makes you think they won't turn pro after one season? If you're so confident about Wright and Rush turning pro, Gordon and Rose (especially Rose since he plays a more 'in demand' position) should be just as likely to make that jump, imo.

Could happen, but they are guards. Usually guards stick around longer, but good point none the less.

 

And I don't expect Gordon to stay for four seasons. I would be satisfied with 2 years, and pleased with 3.

[Mark_R]

What makes me think Gordon will be around for more than one year is that he doesn't have the NBA 2 body. If he were 2-3 inches taller, I'd think he'd be gone after one, maybe two years.

 

Rose at 6' 4" is a one and done no matter where he goes. Teams will be foaming at the mouth for a point guard with his size, strength, athleticism.

[hawkeyecub]

I agree, it's debatable. I also make distinctions between top 5-10 of all time, top programs in the last whatever number of years and top programs right now.

[snoodmonger]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

 

There is a real ebb and flow to these things, IMO. A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, but Kansas hasn't looked like a top 5 in a while.

 

Yeah, no FF since '02 and '03. What a drought.

 

KU Since 1988-- five final fours, 3 title game appearances, one title.

 

That's plenty to keep them in top program contention. UCONN is quickly becoming part of the discussion, too. It's their lack of history that hurts them.

 

I realize it's all subjective, but I think it's silly to discount history and coaching trees just because you think they don't matter in the discussion. When people talk about UNC, they talk about Dean and MJ. When people talk UCLA they talk Wooden, Alcindor, etc. When people talk about KU, they talk Naismith, Chamberlain, the coaching tree. All of those are elements of what makes those programs great, and you don't get to discount them simply because it weakens the pro-KU argument to do so.

 

 

And, and for the record, if UI lands Rose, they'll be damn good that year they have him. Instant title contender.

[snoodmonger]

By the way, I apologize to the KSU, ISU, and MU fans for hijacking the crap out of this thread. Not my goal.

 

Mizzou/TT/dabears--any news on the coaching front?

[da bears]

By the way, I apologize to the KSU, ISU, and MU fans for hijacking the crap out of this thread. Not my goal.

 

Mizzou/TT/dabears--any news on the coaching front?

 

I really haven't heard anything. Just more complaining on Tigerboard. I bet that Mizzou doesn't hire anyone until after the tournament (I could be totally wrong though).

 

On a side note, I just can't understand how these kids, like OJ Mayo, would want to go to Manhattan, Kansas, even to follow Huggins. Even before I knew anything about KSU or MU, I still kinda knew that KSU was not in a bustling metropolis. Oh well, congradulations on getting Huggins, and if they can land Mayo and Walker, impressive job.

[XZero771679666304]

snoodmonger is right. Kansas is definitely up with those other first-tier programs, and many agree that they are probably top 5 all-time.

Make a good argument putting them in front of either UCLA, Indiana, UNC, Duke, or Kentucky. The top 5 go ahead I will wait for it. KU is a top 10 program or second tier. Hey Bill, that Sommerville kid can shoot might want to guard him.

 

I think they're in front of Duke.

 

They had a few Final Four appearances in the 60's, but other than that they were pretty much irrelevant until the late 80's. Yeah they've quite possibly been the best program since 1989, but that's not all that matters.

It's close and they're right there, but I would give them the nod.

 

There is a real ebb and flow to these things, IMO. A few years ago, I would have agreed with you, but Kansas hasn't looked like a top 5 in a while.

 

Yeah, no FF since '02 and '03. What a drought.

 

KU Since 1988-- five final fours, 3 title game appearances, one title.

 

That's plenty to keep them in top program contention. UCONN is quickly becoming part of the discussion, too. It's their lack of history that hurts them.

 

I realize it's all subjective, but I think it's silly to discount history and coaching trees just because you think they don't matter in the discussion. When people talk about UNC, they talk about Dean and MJ. When people talk UCLA they talk Wooden, Alcindor, etc. When people talk about KU, they talk Naismith, Chamberlain, the coaching tree. All of those are elements of what makes those programs great, and you don't get to discount them simply because it weakens the pro-KU argument to do so.

 

 

And, and for the record, if UI lands Rose, they'll be damn good that year they have him. Instant title contender.

 

I sincerely doubt recruits give a damn about any of that, and that matters more than what you or I think.

 

And in terms of program health I would put UConn ahead of KU right now, along with Duke, UNC, MSU and maybe a couple others. And I don't think Self is a good enough coach to win a NC, and certainly not half the Coach Roy Williams is. In Self's 3 years at KU, he has had 3 very talented teams, and managed an Elite 8 and two first round exits.

 

You can disagree all you want, but his winning to talent ratio isn't where it should be, and would be shocked if KU has the kind of success under him that you did under Williams.