Why is there a battle at 2nd?

[Monco]

Todd Walker is the best number 2 hitter on the team.Hes a lefty who had a .355 obp last year.He costs 2.5 mil a year and he has to fight for a job?Hes not a great fielder but hes not that bad.We have a rookie shortstop and leftfielder who have to prove they can hit consistently everyday.Their backups don't offer much hope.We sign JJ for all that money who hit .249 with 120k's in a small park and they hand him a job.But Walker has to prove himself?

[Abe Frohman]

The only reason that I think Walker is being doubted is because of the condition of his knee. I have heard rumors, and I am wondering if there is more to his injury than is being presented through the media.

 

You have to remember, a patients medical records are private and the new HIPAA act prohibits outside sources from knowledge unless patients allow it. Walker may not want his employer, the Cubs, to disclose anything that is not obvious.

 

There is no question that Todd Walker is the best overall 2nd Baseman of the three. None whatsoever.

[Soul]

1) They don't like his defense. That's well documented.

 

2) They don't like his mouth.

 

 

That's why there is a battle at 2nd. Not saying I agree with it, but that is why.

[WrigleyinEngland]

I have to be honest i like Jr a lot at 2nd. I like his grit and attitude , he's a no nonsense player with good D and speed. He played hurt last year and still didn't complain when put in the OF etc he might surprise many this year. If we had a quality #5 hitter playing RF i would have already nailed my colours to the J Hairston Jr fan club. However i still feel walker can be a quality role player on this team, his mouth however needs to stop opening IMO.......

[YearofDaCubs]

I have to be honest i like Jr a lot at 2nd. I like his grit and attitude , he's a no nonsense player with good D and speed. He played hurt last year and still didn't complain when put in the OF etc he might surprise many this year. If we had a quality #5 hitter playing RF i would have already nailed my colours to the J Hairston Jr fan club. However i still feel walker can be a quality role player on this team, his mouth however needs to stop opening IMO.......

As long as Neifi isn't starting at SS or 2B, I'll be happy.

[goonys evil twin]

Using spring training as a time for players with established track records to compete for a starting job is a poor way of determing the makeup of your roster.

[Magnetic Curses]

Using spring training as a time for players with established track records to compete for a starting job is a poor way of determing the makeup of your roster.

 

you're absolutely right. walker has shown in recent years that he's a productive hitter over 162 games. basing a decision on 30 days in early spring is ill-advised.

[craig]

Baker has talked frequently about concerns with Walker's knee. I hadn't expect that; his injury was early last year, and he played the majority of the season with that. I assumed it couldn't have been too bad or he wouldn't have been playing then, and that given an offseason of rest it should be a non-issue. But that appears to not be the case.

 

I know it's the norm on this board to figure that whatever the Cubs are doing, it must be idiotic.

 

But it seems to me that there are several reasons for the Cubs to remain unsettled re 2B:

*Is walker's knee and leg going to be good? It's hard enough for him to play a good defensive 2B on a good leg. On a bad one, even harder.

*Walker has had a couple of really good offensive seasons with the Cubs, and I expect him to hit well again. But at the same time, I think there is reason to be careful in assuming too much. He's been an .800+ OPS with the Cubs. But the previous two seasons, he was a .760/.780-OPS type guy (despite playing in great hitter's parks.) If Walker was to revert to a .775-OPS guy (or worse, which can sometimes happen to hitters who aren't healthy), suddenly his offense might not be stellar enough to justif his defense/baserunning. To guarantee Walker the faithful time, regardless of his health and actual performance, could be a mistake.

*With WrigleyinEngland, I'm interested in Hairston. I was very disappointed with the season he had last year, in almost every way (defense, brains, batting, base-stealing...). But I still think he has a chance to be a good option as a regular 2B. He supposedly wasn't that healthy last year, and the NL pitchers were new. I think there's a chance that being healthier and more familiar, that he might perhaps hit .280+ this year, in the .350-.380 OBP range that he showed the previous two seasons and during the first half last year, and be in the .740+ OPS range. I expect his defense to be a lot better than Walker, perhaps very good. If Hairston could hit .280+ and post a .740+ OPS, which I think is possible if not probable, I think he might be overall a better value at 2B than Walker if Walker isn't hitting in the .800+ OPS range.

 

I also think Hairston would have advantages in that he splits pretty evenly, you wouldn't really have much reason to platoon or do situational pinch-hitting. And he has the potential to field very well, so there'd be no need to consider making late-inning defensive switches or that sort of thing. I think there is defensive advantage in keeping the same middle-infield combo, and not having Cedeno need to process how Hairston likes the ball on Tuesday versus how Walker likes it on Wednesday and Thursday and how Neifi likes it in the 8th/9th innings of the Wednesday/Thursday games.

 

I also think that defense can be underrated. Suppose the primary 2B has about 500 AB's. If walker's limited range is costing you 10 hits over his season (relative to a rangier Hairston), and if Walker's turning-DP skills cost you 10 DP's (relative to Hairston), that's costing you 20 outs and allowing an extra 20 baserunners. In other words, comparable to 40 points in OBP! And at least 60-80 points in OPS.

 

I'm not sure how great the effective defensive difference is, but I'm not sure that 10 balls and 10 DP's is exaggerating? I don't know how to get the fancier defensive stats. I know range factor is not well respected, but that's the easy one to access. And over their careers Hairston's 2B range factor is 4.97 to Walker's 4.37. That's a huge difference, and Walker who's now aging and may have a bad knee is as likely to get worse as to get better.

 

I like Walker's bat.

 

All I'm saying is that the Cubs aren't necessarily total idiots to consider the possibilty that Hairston might be a better regular. He might not hit enough to justify either. But if at this stage in his career he's able to settle in as a .280+ hitter, you might have a guy who could be a competent fixture for a number of years. A superstud, no. But I'd be pretty happy with a guy who might play plus defense, be a plus baserunner, hit .270-.300 ever year with a plus .350+ OBP, bat 2nd, and not have to ask each day or each winter who's going to play 2B tomorrow or in the 8th inning, or who's going to play 2B next season.

[goonys evil twin]

The answer to the concerns with Walker is to play him as a regular 2B to start the season. If there are issues that keep him from being the same productive player he's shown he can be, then mix in Hairston to the job. But Jerry has done nothing to earn an everyday job over Walker, and spring training cannot change that fact.

 

Concerns about what his health might do to his productivity are not a legitimate reason to give the job to somebody else.

[craig]

The answer to the concerns with Walker is to play him as a regular 2B to start the season. If there are issues that keep him from being the same productive player he's shown he can be, then mix in Hairston to the job. But Jerry has done nothing to earn an everyday job over Walker, and spring training cannot change that fact.

 

Concerns about what his health might do to his productivity are not a legitimate reason to give the job to somebody else.

 

You don't think it might be possible to notice in spring training whether the guy's knee is seriously compromising his defensive range? Or whether or not his knee is compromising his already limited ability to turn the double play?

 

I think you are logical in suggesting that until his offense slips below the .800+ OPS level it would be silly to assume it will. But I think it's entirely reasonable to look at his knee and defense in spring training and see whether what was a weakness to start with is now even worse. And if it's bad enough, I don't see the illogic in considering a change.

 

Other thing, there are in betweens between all Hairston and all Walker. Walker had a good year versus LHP last year, but his career is pretty weak. If walker's the main guy, do you start him versus LHP, or platoon? If Walker's defense is looking worse than ever, you might also consider starting him when Wood/Prior/Rusch (non-GB guys) start, but resting him when GBers Z/madddux/Williams pitch? Or, maybe his knee is good for two days in a row but you don't want to start him three days straight? Another variable is the team offense/lineup as a whole; if the lineup is scoring consistently, Walker's bat may seem less essential than if Aram is hurt and Neifi is starting at 3B, for example.... There are plenty of mix-and-match ways to go. I don't see the illogic in trying to consider everything. It's not like it matters for the roster, both will be on it barring trade anyway.

 

If Walker's knee is fine and he doesn't get traded, I'd be surprised if he wasn't the primary starter early on.

[katway]

1) They don't like his defense. That's well documented.

 

.....

 

This has always been the knock on Walker and is definitely the biggest reason the position is open to competition. It's also the reason Walker was not invited to return to clubs (Reds, Redsox..) where he had success as a hitter and why his availability has drawn little interest. Second is one of those field first, hit second positions which managers prefer good fielders. The Cubs seem to be strugling to gauge whether Walker's offense is enough to make up for his defensive deficiencies.

 

I can understand the organizations struggle with this determination. If Walker gets in a hitting slump, he really has no value defensively. It's like having a low power DH at second. On the other hand, if Hairston gets in a slump, at least he may have value defensively.

[goonys evil twin]

If his knee proves to be a problem, then you make the change, you don't prepare to make the change before the knee becomes a problem. Edited March 13, 2006 by goony's evil twin

[cubbyvirus00]

Its just another dumb decision by the ballclub to make it a public feud.

 

Baker is a players manager so hes gonna give props to everybody, which is a problem.

[EricG]

I thought that it was widely known that Walker isn't starting when Zambrano is pitching. There will be some sort of platoon situation at 2B to get extra offense when Barrett or Ramirez are resting.

[CubinNY]

I thought that it was widely known that Walker isn't starting when Zambrano is pitching. There will be some sort of platoon situation at 2B to get extra offense when Barrett or Ramirez are resting.

 

Where did you read/hear this? It is news to me.

 

If the pitchers are whining about the defense at second base then maybe they should throw better pitches. IMO Walker's defense is not that bad. Certianly not bad enough to warrent a position battle with the likes of Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston Jr.

[EricG]

I thought that it was widely known that Walker isn't starting when Zambrano is pitching. There will be some sort of platoon situation at 2B to get extra offense when Barrett or Ramirez are resting.

 

Where did you read/hear this? It is news to me.

 

If the pitchers are whining about the defense at second base then maybe they should throw better pitches. IMO Walker's defense is not that bad. Certianly not bad enough to warrent a position battle with the likes of Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston Jr.

I don't remember where I heard it, but craig seems to say the same thing.

[oldcubsfan]

It sure seems to me that Walker is the one whining. He really isn't that good of a ballplayer for all the love shown on this board. Starting to remind me of last year with DuBois and other years with Choi, Hill, Cruz,Kelton,Harris, Grieve etc...

As I look over all the rosters, I don't see any of the above playing much and none playing as starters.

[Mizzou]

It sure seems to me that Walker is the one whining. He really isn't that good of a ballplayer for all the love shown on this board. Starting to remind me of last year with DuBois and other years with Choi, Hill, Cruz,Kelton,Harris, Grieve etc...

As I look over all the rosters, I don't see any of the above playing much and none playing as starters.

I don't see how Walker relates to those other players at all. Walker has proven himself to be a real good hitter, whereas those other guys never did anything. I am getting a little tired of him running his mouth, even though he's exactly right and should be upset. If anything, his comments are only going to piss Cubs players and management off.

[BigbadB]

It sure seems to me that Walker is the one whining. He really isn't that good of a ballplayer for all the love shown on this board. Starting to remind me of last year with DuBois and other years with Choi, Hill, Cruz,Kelton,Harris, Grieve etc...

As I look over all the rosters, I don't see any of the above playing much and none playing as starters.

I don't see how Walker relates to those other players at all. Walker has proven himself to be a real good hitter, whereas those other guys never did anything. I am getting a little tired of him running his mouth, even though he's exactly right and should be upset. If anything, his comments are only going to piss Cubs players and management off.

 

Pay no mind, Mizzou. oldcubsfan just likes to throw our failed minor league players in our faces every chance he gets. Walker definitely doesn't apply since he didn't play on any Cub minor league teams.

[oldcubsfan]

It's got nothing to do with minor league players, it has everything to do with the misguided love for players that are basically inadequate as complete players. Are you suggesting this board didn't go a little overboard in "evaluating" the above list?

[frostwyrm]

It's got nothing to do with minor league players, it has everything to do with the misguided love for players that are basically inadequate as complete players. Are you suggesting this board didn't go a little overboard in "evaluating" the above list?

 

This is about as transparent an attempt to hijack a thread as I can recall seeing here. If you want to contribute something relevant to the discussion try to convince us that Neifi Perez or Jerry Hairston should start over Walker.

[BigbadB]

It's got nothing to do with minor league players, it has everything to do with the misguided love for players that are basically inadequate as complete players. Are you suggesting this board didn't go a little overboard in "evaluating" the above list?

 

I'm not suggesting anything. I'm pointing out that you like to take every opportunity to belittle anyone who hoped Hee Seop Choi, Brendon Harris, Juan Cruz, Jason Dubois, etc... would become good major league baseball players.

 

You've pointed out to us how wrong we were that it has grown tiring to read it again and again. You sound like a broken record. What kind of Cub fan comes to a Cub fan message board and belittles other fans for hoping that our minor league system produces many a major league player?

 

And if it has nothing to do with the minor league players, is it really that coincidental that every player you listed outside of Walker (who this thread is about) just happens to be a failure from our system?

 

From where I sit, it gives the appearance you want Cub fan favorites to fail just so you can come here to gloat. I'm sorry if that's an inaccurate picture, but every time I see Choi on the field now, I think to myself "oh, maybe if he strikes out on national tv, oldcubsfan will have another moment of glory on NSBB."

 

It's really pretty sad.

[BigbadB]

Are you suggesting this board didn't go a little overboard in "evaluating" the above list?

 

And if I might add another $.02, you will notice that this forum has an extensive forum for minor leaguers only. The main NSBB web site has thorough examinations of the minor league teams. Every single player at the major league level on down through the minors gets "evaluated" extensively.

 

No, not every minor league player is going to make it. However, there really is nothing wrong with hoping that all of these players become impact players.

 

Yes, I'm one of those who had Choi penciled in to be the everyday 1b for the Cubs for the next 10 or so years. I was wrong. I'm glad we have Derrek Lee. Do I or anyone else that hoped Hee Seop Choi would be as successful at the major league level as he was in the minors need our noses rubbed in it at each conceivable moment because he didn't gain that success? No.

[frostwyrm]

Hey oldcubsfan, if you want to talk about brain-damaged talent evaluations we could talk about your buddy Dusty, the genius who actually asked Hendry to re-sign Randall Simon and Eric Karros. Those guys sure had some awesome success after leaving the Cubs. Then there was that thing about Todd Hollandsworth being a starting left fielder.

[Omar]

I really dont see him on the bench all year without complaining enough about it to get traded.