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Posted
I like Pierre. I think he's a good pickup simply for the fact that Dusty will have someone he can put atop the order 160 times this year. No more Patterson, Perez, Enrique Wilson 1-2's.

 

I agree that part of Pierre's value is it means Dusty won't be able to bat some piece of trash in the leadoff spot. But it doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the 2 hole. Neifi will still get his shot there.

 

Just say no to Neifi!!!!

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Posted
I like Pierre. I think he's a good pickup simply for the fact that Dusty will have someone he can put atop the order 160 times this year. No more Patterson, Perez, Enrique Wilson 1-2's.

 

I agree that part of Pierre's value is it means Dusty won't be able to bat some piece of trash in the leadoff spot. But it doesn't mean a thing when it comes to the 2 hole. Neifi will still get his shot there.

 

It's a start though.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other.

 

Actually I think you misunderstood my intention. I am constantly calling for a balanced team that can all styles of baseball, depending on what game situation merits it. I didn't intend to infer that the Cubs are a small ball team (if that's what you got out of it). I was strictly referring to Pierre's game.

 

Often I find the proponents of OBP ball shun all forms of small ball, at all times, and I was making the point that with Pierre on the team, you simply can't take that stance.

Community Moderator
Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other.

 

Actually I think you misunderstood my intention. I am constantly calling for a balanced team that can all styles of baseball, depending on what game situation merits it. I didn't intend to infer that the Cubs are a small ball team (if that's what you got out of it). I was strictly referring to Pierre's game.

 

Often I find the proponents of OBP ball shun all forms of small ball, at all times, and I was making the point that with Pierre on the team, you simply can't take that stance.

 

No, we really do not shun small ball at all times. In a tie game in the 8th or 9th, I'm fine with Pierre stealing 2nd, Walker bunting him to 3rd and giving Lee and Ramirez the opportunity to sac fly him in. I'd prefer that Walker hit the ball to the right side and hopefully through the infield, but if he lays down the bunt to make a fairly deep fly ball an RBI and a lead in the game, I'm cool with that.

 

I don't want to see it in the 1st or the 4th, however, or whatever inning Pierre is coming up to hit. Every base running error (caught stealing, caught attempting an extra base, picked off) is one less RBI opportunity for the most productive hitters on the team.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

 

How are we slightly below to average offensively? I can think of 3 NL teams that have a better offense than us on paper. STL, PHI, and NY. And we might be better than New York. You might could throw the Dodgers in there too, but they have some pretty big health concerns. I think we'll easily be in the top half of the league in runs scored this season.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

 

How are we slightly below to average offensively? I can think of 3 NL teams that have a better offense than us on paper. STL, PHI, and NY. And we might be better than New York. You might could throw the Dodgers in there too, but they have some pretty big health concerns. I think we'll easily be in the top half of the league in runs scored this season.

 

The Cubs will likely not hit as many HRs as last year or the previous year. They haven't been in the top half of league in runs scored in quite some time and they haven't done much to improve their situation this offseason.

 

I guess I could ask you why you think they will easily be in the top half this year.

Posted
Often I find the proponents of OBP ball shun all forms of small ball, at all times, and I was making the point that with Pierre on the team, you simply can't take that stance.

 

You have to get on-base to be able to play small ball. Stealing bases isn't small-ball, stealing bases is aggressive & small ball isn't aggressive.

 

Bunting him over would be small ball, the Cubs don't have to automatically go for one run when Pierre is on 1B. You can steal 2B and still have Walker try and knock him in with a base hit thru the 4-3 gap, if it doesn't get thru, it becomes a SH.

 

I'd want Pierre to run as much as possible, I don't want Walker bunting him over.

 

With Pierre it's not an either or scenario as the 2nd hitter dictates whether they're playing for one run or the big inning. This is more important in the 1st when most big innings occur.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

 

How are we slightly below to average offensively? I can think of 3 NL teams that have a better offense than us on paper. STL, PHI, and NY. And we might be better than New York. You might could throw the Dodgers in there too, but they have some pretty big health concerns. I think we'll easily be in the top half of the league in runs scored this season.

 

The Cubs will likely not hit as many HRs as last year or the previous year. They haven't been in the top half of league in runs scored in quite some time and they haven't done much to improve their situation this offseason.

 

I guess I could ask you why you think they will easily be in the top half this year.

 

Why won't they hit as many HR's as last year? I think we'll easily be in the top half of runs scored this year because the 3 black hole positions as far as OBP last year(CF, SS, and LF) have been improved quite a bit.

Posted

Why won't they hit as many HR's as last year? I think we'll easily be in the top half of runs scored this year because the 3 black hole positions as far as OBP last year(CF, SS, and LF) have been improved quite a bit.

 

Why does everybody forget RF when talking about blackholes last year? Cubs RF ranked 13th in the NL in OBP, 15th in OPS. LF was 14th and 12th in those two categories.

 

Furthermore, while we can hope for improvement from LF and SS, there is nothing close to a guarantee on that. Cubs SS had an OBP of .307 (10th in the NL). Will Ronny beat that? Hopefully, probably. But will Ronny play 162 games? No way. Neifi will have a chance to drag whatever Ronny does down, not to mention, Ronny could struggle to a .315-.320 OBP, which wouldn't help much. Then you have LF, where the Cubs had a .319 OBP last year. Again, Murton should do better, but by how much? And what about the guy Dusty inevitably plays in his place? Not to mention the Cubs could easily see their 1B OBP drop significantly, even if Lee has a great year. Plus, we could see serious decline from 2B (.346 last year) if Walker isn't playing. Of course you always have to worry about Barrett, if he is unable to match his career year, the C OBP could decline as well.

 

You can't just say LF, SS, and CF have been solved, all is well. There were positions that overachieved last year that could decline this year. And some of the replacements won't necessariliy light the world on fire. Of course, Dusty could ruin any chances of improvement himself by overplaying undeserving veterans, his specialty.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

 

How are we slightly below to average offensively? I can think of 3 NL teams that have a better offense than us on paper. STL, PHI, and NY. And we might be better than New York. You might could throw the Dodgers in there too, but they have some pretty big health concerns. I think we'll easily be in the top half of the league in runs scored this season.

 

The Cubs will likely not hit as many HRs as last year or the previous year. They haven't been in the top half of league in runs scored in quite some time and they haven't done much to improve their situation this offseason.

 

I guess I could ask you why you think they will easily be in the top half this year.

 

Why won't they hit as many HR's as last year? I think we'll easily be in the top half of runs scored this year because the 3 black hole positions as far as OBP last year(CF, SS, and LF) have been improved quite a bit.

 

Becuase the people in LF, CF, RF, and SS will likely hit less HRs then the people in those positions last year. In addition, Lee, Walker, and Barrett will probably hit less HRs this year. Both Barrett and Lee had or tied career highs in HRs and walker is another year older.

 

I am not saying the offesnse is terrible but it is not good either. Last year they were middle of the pack. I expect the same thing this year.

Posted
wow he's third in the league in hits the last few year behind Pujols and Ichiro. Thats some nice company.

 

That's meaningless. I remember once Dante Bichette hit 20 HRs and 15 SBs and went to arbitration and argued that only he Rickey Henderson and Barry Bonds achieved this combination and thus deserved his figure in arbitration.

 

Why don't we see where Pierre ranks in lack of power and out-making ability.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other.

 

Actually I think you misunderstood my intention. I am constantly calling for a balanced team that can all styles of baseball, depending on what game situation merits it. I didn't intend to infer that the Cubs are a small ball team (if that's what you got out of it). I was strictly referring to Pierre's game.

 

Often I find the proponents of OBP ball shun all forms of small ball, at all times, and I was making the point that with Pierre on the team, you simply can't take that stance.

 

To reiterate/clarify my point, since I'm the one who originally brought it up, I'm not talking about Pierre never bunting or stealing or trying not to strike out ever again. His mindset has been pretty much stated that he always likes to make something happen, and since he doesn't draw a ton of walks, that means he slaps the ball around in all counts. What I'm advocating he do is be more selective in earlier counts, and try to hit the ball with more authority. Instead of flicking groundouts, singles and foul balls, some more hard hit outs, gappers, and swings and misses. The only real downside is that he'll probably find himself in a 2 strike count more, but since he originally keeps the same "contact at all costs" mindset in most all counts, there's not really a sacrifice there.

Posted
Often I find the proponents of OBP ball shun all forms of small ball, at all times, and I was making the point that with Pierre on the team, you simply can't take that stance.

 

You have to get on-base to be able to play small ball. Stealing bases isn't small-ball, stealing bases is aggressive & small ball isn't aggressive.

 

Bunting him over would be small ball, the Cubs don't have to automatically go for one run when Pierre is on 1B. You can steal 2B and still have Walker try and knock him in with a base hit thru the 4-3 gap, if it doesn't get thru, it becomes a SH.

 

I'd want Pierre to run as much as possible, I don't want Walker bunting him over.

 

With Pierre it's not an either or scenario as the 2nd hitter dictates whether they're playing for one run or the big inning. This is more important in the 1st when most big innings occur.

 

I'm sorry, but based upon this post, it looks like you don't understand small ball. You are indicating that small ball = bunting, which is a gross simplification and is simply incorrect.

 

Moving a runner over in any form is small ball. You can't limit it to just a bunt. In your example, asking Walker to bunt is silly, because that's not his game or his strength. All Walker has to do is pull the ball to the right on the ground, or fly it deep to RF, and Pierre is on third. Obviously he is looking for a basehit in that situation. You don't have to ask him to give up the at bat (another misconception of small ball). All you want Walker to do is pull the ball and not pop it up and he's done his job.

 

Also, small ball is aggressive. You're proactively going after runs (by taking extra risk usually) in a situation where Beane-ball would sit and wait for the big hit. That's the whole point. It's a far more aggressive style of baseball than Beane-ball.

Posted (edited)

I understand smallball completely. If trying to move the runner over is a worst case scenario, then it's not small-ball.

 

Every team tries that, even Oakland, their #2 hitter isn't trying to hit a HR, he's trying to either drive him or if he fails to accomplish that, try and move him along. That's fundamentals not small-ball.

 

And like I said, you can steal bases and not have it be small-ball.

 

(Edit: if the Oak. hitter hits a HR it would be from trying to make solid contact as most teams like to have from each hitter.)

Edited by UK
Posted

 

There's a big difference there. Maddux in his prime struck out a decent amount of hitters, and his hallmark was exceptional control. Pierre essentially ignores one of the most important parts of hitting, hitting for extra bases, in lieu of not striking out, which isn't nearly as important. When Pierre sacrifices power for contact, it lessens his offensive value.

 

Offensive value and power are not mutually exclusive. His offensive value lies in his ability in getting basehits, not striking out, stealing bases and scoring runs

 

Yes, but in his quest to not strike out, he loses power. The power is much more valuable than the ability to not strike out. By taking a "contact at all costs" approach, he limits the player he could be.

 

he loses power, which he probably wouldn't have much anyway, and gains obp. in this case, I think the increase in OBP is worth the loss of power. its not like he'd be adam dunn if he struck out more.

 

I can't see his OBP dropping much if at all by just trying to make more solid contact all the time. First of all, I'm not talking about just hacking away with two strikes, I'm talking about getting his pitch and driving it, not just trying to put the ball in play and run. Furthermore, with the amount of weak contact he makes in all counts because of his approach, He's not losing a bunch of singles to gain the doubles and triples. Of course he's not going to become Adam Dunn, but he'd be better, and that's better for us.

 

Why is it ok for you to ignore the fact that his obp would drop if he struck out more?

 

Maybe because that's not a fact?

 

absolutely its a fact. the more balls put in play, the higher his BA, the higher his OBP. that's undeniable.

Old-Timey Member
Posted

absolutely its a fact. the more balls put in play, the higher his BA, the higher his OBP. that's undeniable.

 

It's really not.

Posted

Why won't they hit as many HR's as last year? I think we'll easily be in the top half of runs scored this year because the 3 black hole positions as far as OBP last year(CF, SS, and LF) have been improved quite a bit.

 

Why does everybody forget RF when talking about blackholes last year? Cubs RF ranked 13th in the NL in OBP, 15th in OPS. LF was 14th and 12th in those two categories.

 

Furthermore, while we can hope for improvement from LF and SS, there is nothing close to a guarantee on that. Cubs SS had an OBP of .307 (10th in the NL). Will Ronny beat that? Hopefully, probably. But will Ronny play 162 games? No way. Neifi will have a chance to drag whatever Ronny does down, not to mention, Ronny could struggle to a .315-.320 OBP, which wouldn't help much. Then you have LF, where the Cubs had a .319 OBP last year. Again, Murton should do better, but by how much? And what about the guy Dusty inevitably plays in his place? Not to mention the Cubs could easily see their 1B OBP drop significantly, even if Lee has a great year. Plus, we could see serious decline from 2B (.346 last year) if Walker isn't playing. Of course you always have to worry about Barrett, if he is unable to match his career year, the C OBP could decline as well.

 

You can't just say LF, SS, and CF have been solved, all is well. There were positions that overachieved last year that could decline this year. And some of the replacements won't necessariliy light the world on fire. Of course, Dusty could ruin any chances of improvement himself by overplaying undeserving veterans, his specialty.

 

Well, if I took a worst case possible scenario then yeah our offense could be pretty bad. Our main problem last year was lack of OBP. We've upgraded OBP at three positions. Two of those three positions could be a significant upgrade(CF and LF). The offense in my opinion is upgraded.

Posted
absolutely its a fact. the more balls put in play, the higher his BA, the higher his OBP. that's undeniable.

 

Not if it is at the expense of drawing BBs.

 

Pierre doesn't draw walks. Yes, I would like to see him draw walks but I think the idea of him trying to hit for power would be fruitless and would make him a worse offensive player. davhern is taking the statement out of context - in Pierre's case, it certainly is true. to me the argument TT is making is akin to simply wishing Pierre was a better hitter.

Posted

 

Becuase the people in LF, CF, RF, and SS will likely hit less HRs then the people in those positions last year.

 

 

the Cubs had a total of 65 HRs out of those positions last year. I don't think it is a stretch to think that Murton, Jones (and hopefully a right handed platoon), Cedeno, and Pierre will hit around 60. the additional OBP more than makes up for those 5 HRs.

 

 

In addition, Lee, Walker, and Barrett will probably hit less HRs this year. Both Barrett and Lee had or tied career highs in HRs and walker is another year older.

 

Lee, you're right, probably down

 

Walker - the Cubs had 17 HRs out of secondbase last year, with Walker on the DL for a month and a half (he had 12). equalling that total shouldn't be a stretch.

 

Barrett - yes, he did tie his career high (16), but his AB per HR the past four seasons is 31.1/22.6/28.5/26.5. there's no reason to think that the Cubs will lose more than a HR or two out of Barrett, even if he reverts to his HR rate of 2002.

 

furthermore, if you are going to use Wlaker's age as a factor in prediction, you should consider that Barrett and Aram are just entering their primes. using the same rationale, their HR production should go up.

 

in sum, the HRs will probably be down, but not significantly.

Posted
If you are more a fan of Oakland/Toronto style baseball, but are a true blue Cubs fans, you're going to have to suck it up and root for small ball this year, because that is what Pierre brings to the table.

 

Root for small ball? This isn't going to be a small ball team. Juan Pierre will slap some singles and steal some bases, but other than that this is not a small ball team. It's a baseball team. Why do people insist on trying to pretend it's one or the other. Everybody wanted to call the White Sox a small ball team despite the fact that they relied so heavily on homeruns to win games. The Cubs have been for years among the league leaders in sacrifice hits and bunts yet people said they never tried small ball stuff. We shouldn't pretend this offense is going to be immensely different than it has been in years. Pierre isn't going to change everything on his own.

 

 

Anyway, of course Cubs fans are going to root for Pierre. I personally wouldn't have gone so hard for him to be on the team, and I think many people grossly overvalue him. But I like him and think he can help the team and will be pulling hard for him, and all the rest of the team.

Just to piggy back here. In addition, the Cubs are lacking at least one run producer in the middle. Right now I would say their offense is slightly below average to average. If DLee or Aramis regresses significantly to the mean or below the mean of the career performance the Cubs will have a hard time scoring runs.

 

I think Slap Nasty is an upgrade from the previous years but the Cubs are still lacking consistent run producing people, at least as it stands right now.

 

How are we slightly below to average offensively? I can think of 3 NL teams that have a better offense than us on paper. STL, PHI, and NY. And we might be better than New York. You might could throw the Dodgers in there too, but they have some pretty big health concerns. I think we'll easily be in the top half of the league in runs scored this season.

 

The Cubs will likely not hit as many HRs as last year or the previous year. They haven't been in the top half of league in runs scored in quite some time and they haven't done much to improve their situation this offseason.

 

I guess I could ask you why you think they will easily be in the top half this year.

 

Why won't they hit as many HR's as last year? I think we'll easily be in the top half of runs scored this year because the 3 black hole positions as far as OBP last year(CF, SS, and LF) have been improved quite a bit.

 

Becuase the people in LF, CF, RF, and SS will likely hit less HRs then the people in those positions last year. In addition, Lee, Walker, and Barrett will probably hit less HRs this year. Both Barrett and Lee had or tied career highs in HRs and walker is another year older.

 

I am not saying the offesnse is terrible but it is not good either. Last year they were middle of the pack. I expect the same thing this year.

 

I disagree with the HR thing. Hollandsworth hit 5 HR's last year in 100 games. Murton hit 7 in 50 games. Burnitz hit 24, Jones hit 23. Neifi hit 9 while slugging .383, Cedeno can come close to that. Corey hit 13 homers last year and while Pierre wont hit more than 1 or 2, the upgrade in left should make up that difference. Who knows what Walker, Lee, and Barrett will do. Hopefully there won't be a dropoff there. HR's will once again not be a problem this year, it's going to come down to can we get on base consistently. I feel with the upgrades we've made the answer is going to be yes we can.

Posted

 

I disagree with the HR thing. Hollandsworth hit 5 HR's last year in 100 games. Murton hit 7 in 50 games. Burnitz hit 24, Jones hit 23. Neifi hit 9 while slugging .383, Cedeno can come close to that. Corey hit 13 homers last year and while Pierre wont hit more than 1 or 2, the upgrade in left should make up that difference. Who knows what Walker, Lee, and Barrett will do. Hopefully there won't be a dropoff there. HR's will once again not be a problem this year, it's going to come down to can we get on base consistently. I feel with the upgrades we've made the answer is going to be yes we can.

 

We shall see. I hope you're correct

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