Prior delayed again

[Soul]

To bring back the ticket discussion from earlier...

 

With Dugout Box and Bullpen Box seats going on sale tomorrow, you'd think that the Cubs would wait til after those sold like crazy to announce the injury news, not the night before... IF ticket sales and Prior's health were ever in the same conversation.

 

No, I think it's more about the absence of credibility of this franchise more than ticket sales. Ticket sales are basically on auto-pilot.

 

The Hendry era will be remembered as the era of lies, and lost potential.

[Jon]

Just because we cannot pinpoint the motivation for the Cubs organization to hide and lie about Prior's injury, doesn't mean the organization didn't hide and lie this injury.

 

Recent data appears to show that the Cubs lied and hid Prior's injury. Here is what I believe is the most telling data to support this claim:

 

1. Prior had a different throwing program than every other healthy pitcher in camp this year and in years' past.

As was pointed out, he was already going to be on a different throwing program and he wasn't in shape because of his illness (and I think a couple of pictures would back that up). And the important thing is that it was a throwing program. He was pitching. Pitchers don't do that if they're injured

 

2. Will Carroll trusted his source enough to publish Prior's injury before confirmation from the Cubs camp. His credibility is good and he received his injury news from a previously accurate source.

He also had this to say:

The Cubs deny this and point to Prior's work on the mound. Prior was doing towel drills on Saturday, but this is the same type of work he was doing last year when there was a problem. According to our best sources in Mesa, Prior looks "weak and sick." Until he throws, we just won't know, though I'd like to believe Larry Rothschild.

Prior always does the towel drill. You can see him do it at Wrigley before he pitches. And the "weak and sick" comment just backs up the idea that he was out of shape and still not 100%, thus a different program.

 

Maybe the motivation for not reporting this injury earlier was because Hendry couldn't retain honesty as a GM if the day pitchers and catchers report, it's announced that Prior is injured after being shopped all offseason.

 

That's just speculation though, and whether true or false, doesn't change the fact that the Cubs lied and hid Mark Prior's injury.

To suggest that they knew about this injury over three weeks ago means that they're complete (and I do mean complete) idiots in regards to this whole injury situation. You do not have a pitcher throw and throw off the mound for weeks if you know he has a shoulder injury. That would be nothing short of idiotic (just shy of eating worms during recess). Is that an allegation that you'd really make?

[frostwyrm]

Why would he be unnerved if it's not true?

 

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving.

 

Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him.

 

The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

 

It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies.

 

BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :?

 

Yeah, that's how I see it. ST is not even real baseball. If healthy the Cubs could have let Prior face a few batters with a relaxed fastball. So he gives up a few runs. Who cares? It's not a real game.

[YearofDaCubs]

Just because we cannot pinpoint the motivation for the Cubs organization to hide and lie about Prior's injury, doesn't mean the organization didn't hide and lie this injury.

 

Recent data appears to show that the Cubs lied and hid Prior's injury. Here is what I believe is the most telling data to support this claim:

 

1. Prior had a different throwing program than every other healthy pitcher in camp this year and in years' past.

As was pointed out, he was already going to be on a different throwing program and he wasn't in shape because of his illness (and I think a couple of pictures would back that up). And the important thing is that it was a throwing program. He was pitching. Pitchers don't do that if they're injured

 

2. Will Carroll trusted his source enough to publish Prior's injury before confirmation from the Cubs camp. His credibility is good and he received his injury news from a previously accurate source.

He also had this to say:

The Cubs deny this and point to Prior's work on the mound. Prior was doing towel drills on Saturday, but this is the same type of work he was doing last year when there was a problem. According to our best sources in Mesa, Prior looks "weak and sick." Until he throws, we just won't know, though I'd like to believe Larry Rothschild.

Prior always does the towel drill. You can see him do it at Wrigley before he pitches. And the "weak and sick" comment just backs up the idea that he was out of shape and still not 100%, thus a different program.

 

Maybe the motivation for not reporting this injury earlier was because Hendry couldn't retain honesty as a GM if the day pitchers and catchers report, it's announced that Prior is injured after being shopped all offseason.

 

That's just speculation though, and whether true or false, doesn't change the fact that the Cubs lied and hid Mark Prior's injury.

To suggest that they knew about this injury over three weeks ago means that they're complete (and I do mean complete) idiots in regards to this whole injury situation. You do not have a pitcher throw and throw off the mound for weeks if you know he has a shoulder injury. That would be nothing short of idiotic (just shy of eating worms during recess). Is that an allegation that you'd really make?

They had NO problem allowing Wood to go out there and pitch when they knew he had shoulder issues and should be shut down immediately. This organization is about as incompetent as it gets. Here's hoping that Hendry and Baker are goners after this upcoming season. This is ridiculous.

[Soul]

Why would he be unnerved if it's not true?

 

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving.

 

Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him.

 

The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

 

It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies.

 

BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :?

 

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength.

 

If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future.

 

Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out.

 

Because the media caught wind of this weeks ago, and the Cubs deliberately squelched it. Hendry deliberately squelched it, if you remember. That's why Prior is not the source of the lie.

 

And on the Towel: you are right, but I've never seen "healthy" pitchers use the towel drill in spring training to build strength while other healthy pitchers are throwing in games. Only rehabbing, injured pitchers do this.

[Jon]

Push Prior? They have done nothing but hold him back all ST.

 

Perhaps they were hoping this injury would heal in the 6 weeks before the season so they wouldn't have to go public with it. Once it became worse than they had expected and hoped, they had to send Prior to a specialist and make that info public.

On February 20th (the day Carroll's article came out), he hadn't thrown off the mound either in a bullpen session or in a simulated game.

 

Before today, he had done both and was in the middle of preparing for another session when it happened. He was also on pace to start in a Cactus League game in about a week.

 

That's not holding him back.

[Laura]

Updated Trib article

 

Dr. Lewis Yocum is to examine Prior on Wednesday in Los Angeles. Prior likely will have an MRI taken to determine whether there are any tears in the back of his right shoulder.

 

The 25-year-old right-hander has been on the disabled list five times in his four-year career, and his health has been an issue throughout training camp. An Internet report in February suggested he was hiding a shoulder injury. Prior repeatedly denied having any problems when the report surfaced.

 

Rothschild said Prior started to feel discomfort while playing long toss Tuesday morning at HoHoKam Park before a scheduled bullpen session....

 

Discussing the simulated game Monday in a brief session with reporters, Prior said he felt "a little uncomfortable at first, but I thought I finished strong." Rothschild said Prior's reaction Tuesday indicated it wasn't just usual spring soreness.

 

"It seems like it's a little more than that," he said. "If that were the case, we'd probably just see how it is [Wednesday]. We're not going to know until he's checked out."

 

If Prior's shoulder problem is determined to be less serious than feared, would he have to start his throwing program all over again?

 

"I hope not—that's not something I want to do," Rothschild said."We'll do what we have to do to make sure he's OK and whatever they tell us is the way it's going to go."

 

If Prior is unable to start the season in the rotation, left-hander Rich Hill and Angel Guzman likely will vie for his spot.

 

"With Carlos [Zambrano] not being here and Mark not making his starts, that's probably a natural progression with some guys," Rothschild said. "We'll see where they get to and hope somebody steps up."

[Jon]

They had NO problem allowing Wood to go out there and pitch when they knew he had shoulder issues and should be shut down immediately. This organization is about as incompetent as it gets. Here's hoping that Hendry and Baker are goners after this upcoming season. This is ridiculous.

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race.

 

With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury.

[Jon]

And on the Towel: you are right, but I've never seen "healthy" pitchers use the towel drill in spring training to build strength while other healthy pitchers are throwing in games. Only rehabbing, injured pitchers do this.

I don't think there's any point when Prior doesn't do the towel drill. Other pitchers may not do it, but he does it all the time, whether in spring training or right before regular season starts.

[Soul]

Come on. This is like the bazillionth time guys. How many more until we face up to the fact that the Cubs habitually lie about player injuries?

[bc2k]

Why would he be unnerved if it's not true?

 

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving.

 

Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him.

 

The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

 

It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies.

 

BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :?

 

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength.

 

If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future.

 

Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out.

 

Or perhaps Prior and the Cubs thought his injury was something that wasn't serious enough to warrant a specialist's opinion, and that it would not stop him from starting the season.

 

Prior's motivation for going along with the organization could have been because he doesn't want to promote the injury prone title that's he's already been called.

 

Basically, they took a wait-and-see approach and didn't want to make public Prior's injury until necessary.

 

Three weeks later, it became necessary.

Edited March 15, 2006 by bc2k

[Mizzou]

Dr. Lewis Yocum is to examine Prior on Wednesday in Los Angeles. Prior likely will have an MRI taken to determine whether there are any tears in the back of his right shoulder.

Is there really any doubt? I mean, who here doesn't expect there to be a tear, or something that causes him to miss significant time.

 

*sigh* I can remember when I used to be an optimistic Cubs fan.

[Blueheart05]

Why would he be unnerved if it's not true?

 

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving.

 

Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him.

 

The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

 

It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies.

 

BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :?

 

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength.

 

If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future.

 

Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out.

 

Because the media caught wind of this weeks ago, and the Cubs deliberately squelched it. Hendry deliberately squelched it, if you remember. That's why Prior is not the source of the lie.

 

And on the Towel: you are right, but I've never seen "healthy" pitchers use the towel drill in spring training to build strength while other healthy pitchers are throwing in games. Only rehabbing, injured pitchers do this.

 

I don't buy the idea that "Hendry squelched" the rumors. Prior has been asked repeatedly about his health and he has always answered in the affirmative. BTW, I'm not saying Prior lied either (I was playing devil's advocate before). I think Prior assumed that his earlier discomfort was normal. Today he decided that the pain was too much to go unchecked.

 

Healthy pitchers do use towel drills. Prior uses one before every game.

[frostwyrm]

He was also on pace to start in a Cactus League game in about a week.

 

Says who? The Cubs? Anyone can say they will start a game in a week. Actually doing it is another matter. For example, I myself will make a Cactus League start in a week. I swear it's true. Do you believe me?

[Jon]

He was also on pace to start in a Cactus League game in about a week.

 

Says who? The Cubs? Anyone can say they will start a game in a week. Actually doing it is another matter. For example, I myself will make a Cactus League start in a week. I swear it's true. Do you believe me?

He would have thrown enough in simulated games to make a Cactus League start if this didn't happen. He would have thrown enough off the mound. His stamina would have where he needed to be to start a Cactus League game. What else would the next step be, then?

[Soul]

I don't buy the idea that "Hendry squelched" the rumors. Prior has been asked repeatedly about his health and he has always answered in the affirmative. BTW, I'm not saying Prior lied either (I was playing devil's advocate before). I think Prior assumed that his earlier discomfort was normal. Today he decided that the pain was too much to go unchecked.

 

Healthy pitchers do use towel drills. Prior uses one before every game.

 

Cutting out quotes to spare scrollbars :)

 

I look to management first though, Blue. I wouldn't expect a player to contradict management----which also leads me to placing the blame on management instead of the player.

 

Certain members of the media learned of this a long time ago, and it very likely wasn't directly from Prior. I'm sorry, but this seriously does not sound like a case of a player keeping everyone else in the dark. Others knew......which tells me management knew.

 

I agree we're speculating, but the track record is too severe to overcome. Too many times this has happened. The deception has become policy, IMO.

[Blueheart05]

Why would he be unnerved if it's not true?

 

A friend spreading false injury rumors would be pretty unnerving.

 

Either way, your case is pretty speculative. It seems more plausible that the team was less than forthcoming, especially in light of the very slow pace the Cubs took with him.

 

The team would have more reason to shut him down. I don't know how people can continue to blame the team when the player is echoing their sentiments (if not defending them). BTW,everyone here is speculating.

 

It might be speculation, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt type speculation given the track record of lies.

 

BTW, they did shut Prior down. That's why he was throwing simulated-simulated games with a towel. Sorry, I don't know what else to call a "simulated" game that takes place among other simulated spring training games. Sub-simulated games? Penultimate simu-games? :?

 

Towel drills are a common arm strength building technique. The Cubs had not shut him down before now. He was always pitching to build strength.

 

If we're to believe that there were lies why aren't we willing to believe that Prior is at the center? Afterall, he had been saying all along that he was fine. If we are to believe that the team has a hidden agenda (ticket sales for instance) for not making this issue public earlier then I'd like to know what Prior's motivation is for going along with the ruse? He would be jeopardizing his future.

 

Like I said, he probably had some level of discomfort initially but ignored it figuring it was all apart of the normal rigors of ST. I think today's revelation was Prior feeling like the pain was bad enough to have a doctor checkit out.

 

Or perhaps Prior and the Cubs thought his injury was something that wasn't serious enough to warrant a specialist's opinion, and that it would not stop him from starting the season.

 

Prior's motivation for going along with the organization could have been because he doesn't want to promote the injury prone title that's he's already been called.

 

Basically, they took a wait-and-see approach and didn't want to make public Prior's injury until necessary.

 

That is very possible and I don't blame them if that's the case.

[bc2k]

Just because we cannot pinpoint the motivation for the Cubs organization to hide and lie about Prior's injury, doesn't mean the organization didn't hide and lie this injury.

 

Recent data appears to show that the Cubs lied and hid Prior's injury. Here is what I believe is the most telling data to support this claim:

 

1. Prior had a different throwing program than every other healthy pitcher in camp this year and in years' past.

As was pointed out, he was already going to be on a different throwing program and he wasn't in shape because of his illness (and I think a couple of pictures would back that up). And the important thing is that it was a throwing program. He was pitching. Pitchers don't do that if they're injured

 

I would accept your reasoning for a different throwing program if Prior's program was just a scaled back version of what healthy pitchers do. But Prior was not allowed to even pitch one inning against live hitting, and only advanced to simulated games and took forever to get to that point.

 

Prior's lack of pitching wasn't to gradually build up his strength; it was because he was nursing an injury.

[Andy]

Dr. Lewis Yocum is to examine Prior on Wednesday in Los Angeles. Prior likely will have an MRI taken to determine whether there are any tears in the back of his right shoulder.

Is there really any doubt? I mean, who here doesn't expect there to be a tear, or something that causes him to miss significant time.

 

*sigh* I can remember when I used to be an optimistic Cubs fan.

When was that? My Cubs optimism lasted about from Game 4 of the 2003 NLCS to the 8th inning of Game 6 and never came back.

 

Anyone want to start a pool on when Angel Guzman completes the trifecta?

He started the trifecta back in 2005 when he suffered his eight millionth setback causing him to not have a full minor league season yet again.

[bc2k]

Push Prior? They have done nothing but hold him back all ST.

 

Perhaps they were hoping this injury would heal in the 6 weeks before the season so they wouldn't have to go public with it. Once it became worse than they had expected and hoped, they had to send Prior to a specialist and make that info public.

On February 20th (the day Carroll's article came out), he hadn't thrown off the mound either in a bullpen session or in a simulated game.

 

Before today, he had done both and was in the middle of preparing for another session when it happened. He was also on pace to start in a Cactus League game in about a week.

 

That's not holding him back.

 

Clearly, Prior was held back. He was doing less pitching than every other pitcher in camp.

[frostwyrm]

He was also on pace to start in a Cactus League game in about a week.

 

Says who? The Cubs? Anyone can say they will start a game in a week. Actually doing it is another matter. For example, I myself will make a Cactus League start in a week. I swear it's true. Do you believe me?

He would have thrown enough in simulated games to make a Cactus League start if this didn't happen. He would have thrown enough off the mound. His stamina would have where he needed to be to start a Cactus League game. What else would the next step be, then?

 

His simulated game on Sunday was only 35 pitches, down from 52 a week earlier. Why the decrease? If he was building strength shouldn't he be able to at least match what he did a week ago? Also, I'm skeptical about how rigorous these simulated games were. "Real" ST games are fake baseball too. It's normal for veteran pitchers to use ST games to build arm strength and stamina. If a pitcher is too weak to pitch in an ST game something is wrong.

[bc2k]

They had NO problem allowing Wood to go out there and pitch when they knew he had shoulder issues and should be shut down immediately. This organization is about as incompetent as it gets. Here's hoping that Hendry and Baker are goners after this upcoming season. This is ridiculous.

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race.

 

With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury.

 

But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving.

 

This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw."

[Blueheart05]

They had NO problem allowing Wood to go out there and pitch when they knew he had shoulder issues and should be shut down immediately. This organization is about as incompetent as it gets. Here's hoping that Hendry and Baker are goners after this upcoming season. This is ridiculous.

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race.

 

With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury.

 

But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving.

 

This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw."

 

To me, this suggests that they didn't feel his discomfort was anything out of the ordinary. Again, Prior has complained of pain in the past only to have multiple tests (and doctors) unable to find a problem. I'm very curious to find out what Dr. Yocum has to say...

[bc2k]

They had NO problem allowing Wood to go out there and pitch when they knew he had shoulder issues and should be shut down immediately. This organization is about as incompetent as it gets. Here's hoping that Hendry and Baker are goners after this upcoming season. This is ridiculous.

Stupid? I think so. But not that stupid. As I've already said, it was a very different situation. They believed that Kerry wasn't going to injure his shoulder any further by pitching. They also kept him in there because they believed he could help them in the wild card race.

 

With Prior, making him pitch when they know he's injured would not help their playoff chances. Quite the opposite. And pitching while injured would most definitely risk further and more serious injury.

 

But note the difference in the two situations: Kerry pitched live regular season games that mattered; Prior didn't even face one spring training opposing hitter. So for you to say that they both "pitched while injured" is deceiving.

 

This spring's handling of Prior does suggest that the Cubs held him back in attempts to see if he could make progress with his injury through pitching and treatments from trainer Mark O'Neal: "We've been treating him for basically normal symptoms that everybody has when they throw."

 

To me, this suggests that they didn't feel his discomfort was anything out of the ordinary. Again, Prior has complained of pain in the past only to have multiple tests (and doctors) unable to find a problem. I'm very curious to find out what Dr. Yocum has to say...

 

Agreed, I also thought of that when posting.

[CheeseHead Cubs Fan]

My concern is this... he has "normal" pain in the shoulder and is held back... then he stops his long-toss session and within hours is sitting in LA waiting to see the Dr.

 

To me this screams something is seriously wrong.