Michaels traded to Cleveland

[E.J.]

For Rhodes.

 

Philly Burbs

 

Convinced they couldn't land a No. 1 starter for All-Star right fielder Bobby Abreu, the Phillies opted to travel down different Rhodes.

 

The Phils and Cleveland Indians agreed to a deal on Monday that will bring veteran lefty reliever Arthur Rhodes to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels, team sources confirmed.

 

The Phillies plan to announce the trade today after the Indians finalize a deal that will bring them reliever Guillermo Mota from the Boston Red Sox for outfielder Coco Crisp. The only holdup appears to be Mota passing a physical today.

 

Rhodes' arrival means Ryan Madson will get his wish and move into the starting rotation after spending his first two big-league seasons in the bullpen. Madson is expected to be the No. 5 starter in a rotation that includes Jon Lieber, Brett Myers, Cory Lidle and Ryan Franklin.

 

[YearofDaCubs]

Wow for Arthur Rhodes? A steal for the Indians.

[fromthestretch]

For Rhodes.

 

Philly Burbs

 

Convinced they couldn't land a No. 1 starter for All-Star right fielder Bobby Abreu, the Phillies opted to travel down different Rhodes.

 

The Phils and Cleveland Indians agreed to a deal on Monday that will bring veteran lefty reliever Arthur Rhodes to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels, team sources confirmed.

 

The Phillies plan to announce the trade today after the Indians finalize a deal that will bring them reliever Guillermo Mota from the Boston Red Sox for outfielder Coco Crisp. The only holdup appears to be Mota passing a physical today.

 

Rhodes' arrival means Ryan Madson will get his wish and move into the starting rotation after spending his first two big-league seasons in the bullpen. Madson is expected to be the No. 5 starter in a rotation that includes Jon Lieber, Brett Myers, Cory Lidle and Ryan Franklin.

 

 

They better hope Madson can step it up as a starter. Outside of Myers, that is one mediocre rotation.

[Andy]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

[TheDude]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

[Sabermetrician]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

The fact that the Phillies are settling on Arthor Rhodes for Michaels, tells you the value Jason Michaels has around baseball. He couldn't beat out the likes of Glanville, Ledee, and Bryd, for goodness sakes.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

The fact that the Phillies are settling on Arthor Rhodes for Michaels, tells you the value Jason Michaels has around baseball. He couldn't beat out the likes of Glanville, Ledee, and Bryd, for goodness sakes.

 

And that decision making got the Phillies what? A new GM?

[TheDude]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

Not a chance.

[jjgman21]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

if he was all that great of a player, one would think he would manage to accumulate more than a year and a half's worth of big league ABs before he reached 30. we are talking about the guy who could't win a position over Doug Glanville and Marlon Byrd here.

[jjgman21]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

The fact that the Phillies are settling on Arthor Rhodes for Michaels, tells you the value Jason Michaels has around baseball. He couldn't beat out the likes of Glanville, Ledee, and Bryd, for goodness sakes.

 

And that decision making got the Phillies what?

 

the second best offense in the NL in 2005, the third best offense in the NL in 2004, and the fifth best offense in the NL in 2003.

[Drew Doughty]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

Not a chance.

 

If any lineup was full of .380+ OBP guys, it would probably be the best in baseball. If not the best, then really close.

[Roast]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

Not a chance.

 

If any lineup was full of .380+ OBP guys, it would probably be the best in baseball. If not the best, then really close.

 

 

No way. Thats impossible. This is an internet messae board and anything said on here is false we dont know anything espn is god obp is meaningless.

[cheapseats]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

if he was all that great of a player, one would think he would manage to accumulate more than a year and a half's worth of big league ABs before he reached 30. we are talking about the guy who could't win a position over Doug Glanville and Marlon Byrd here.

 

The reason he didn't play full-time last season: he was platooning with Kenny Lofton. In just over 400 plate appearances, Lofton had a VORP of 33, higher than the entire Cubs outfield for 2005. That's right, as a part-time player, Lofton himself provided more offense than did Burnitz, Patterson, Hollandsworth, Dubois, Lawton, Hairston, and Murton.

 

In only 343 plate appearances, Michaels had a VORP of 21.7, a higher number than any Cub outfielder. Burnitz had almost twice as many PA and failed to provide as much offense as Michaels.

 

The fact that Doug Glanville played at all in 2004 is an indictment of Philly's front office and coaching, not Michaels.

 

And Marlon Byrd was very good in 2003. Because of his good 2003, he got way too much playing time in 2004. See Hollandsworth, Todd.

 

I've been seeing this sort of argument on these boards a lot lately, and it just doesn't make sense.

 

Todd Hollandsworth started over Murton, so clearly Holly's a better player? :roll:

 

Neifi Perez started over Cedeno, so clearly Neifi's a better player? :roll:

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

The fact that the Phillies are settling on Arthor Rhodes for Michaels, tells you the value Jason Michaels has around baseball. He couldn't beat out the likes of Glanville, Ledee, and Bryd, for goodness sakes.

 

And that decision making got the Phillies what?

 

the second best offense in the NL in 2005, the third best offense in the NL in 2004, and the fifth best offense in the NL in 2003.

 

Yes, Abreu, Thome, and Burrell are good hitters. That's not the point. Your logic to devalue a player is based on accepting the decision making of an organization that hasn't been very successful, and just fired said decision maker.

[katway]

Looks like a good trade for both sides. Philly gets a decent relief pitcher and Clevland gets someone with the potential to be a decent outfielder. Neither player is spectacular.

[cheapseats]

our logic to devalue a player is based on accepting the decision making of an organization that hasn't been very successful, and just fired said decision maker.

 

Even ignoring that, Philly had the most productive outfield in baseball last year.

 

Just because Jeter isn't the best shortstop on the Yankees doesn't mean he's not a good shortstop.

[cheapseats]

Looks like a good trade for both sides. Philly gets a decent relief pitcher and Clevland gets someone with the potential to be a decent outfielder. Neither player is spectacular.

 

I guess you can look at it that way.

 

I really don't like the Aaron Rowand/Jim Thome trade for the Indians. Yes, Ryan Howard needs to play. But Rowand would have been the fifth-best OF on the Philly roster last season. He might bounce back to his 2004 form and put up better numbers in 06, but the Phillies didn't need him.

 

So they trade Michaels, who had a better year than Rowand last year, for Rhodes. ehh.

 

They probably could have found an AL team to take Thome in exchange for pitching - probably getting them something better than Rhodes.

[Blueheart05]

Pretty awful deal for Philly if Michaels is as good as promised.

 

As who promised? Some NSBB folks? Rhodes is a respectable arm that Philly needs. Michaels is a spare bench player.

 

Rhodes, like all relievers, is inconsistant.

 

Michaels is a spare bench player with a .380 career OBP. If the Cubs had a lineup full of "spare bench players," they'd have one of the better offenses in the league.

 

if he was all that great of a player, one would think he would manage to accumulate more than a year and a half's worth of big league ABs before he reached 30. we are talking about the guy who could't win a position over Doug Glanville and Marlon Byrd here.

 

The reason he didn't play full-time last season: he was platooning with Kenny Lofton. In just over 400 plate appearances, Lofton had a VORP of 33, higher than the entire Cubs outfield for 2005. That's right, as a part-time player, Lofton himself provided more offense than did Burnitz, Patterson, Hollandsworth, Dubois, Lawton, Hairston, and Murton.

 

In only 343 plate appearances, Michaels had a VORP of 21.7, a higher number than any Cub outfielder. Burnitz had almost twice as many PA and failed to provide as much offense as Michaels.

 

There are much better ways of making a point about Michaels' offensive abilities. Unfortunately, this is not a reasonable argument. The nature of a platoon is to allow a guy to play to his strengths so pointing out that Michaels' and Lofton's platoon numbers were higher than the entire Cubs outfield doesn't necessarily mean that, given fulltime play, the same results will exist. You might want to point out that Michaels' splits are more than respectable (even though he batted 34 points higher against LHP). By comparison, when Murton batted only against LHP his numbers were exceptional however, the more he was exposed to RHP the more his overall numbers declined.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Blueheart05

[Transmogrified Tiger]

There are much better ways of making a point about Michaels' offensive abilities. Unfortunately, this is not a reasonable argument. The nature of a platoon is to allow a guy to play to his strengths so pointing out that Michaels' and Lofton's platoon numbers were higher than the entire Cubs outfield doesn't necessarily mean that, given fulltime play, the same results will exist. You might want to point out that Michaels' splits are more than respectable (even though he batted 34 points higher against LHP). By comparison, when Murton batted only against LHP his numbers were exceptional however, the more he was exposed to RHP the more his overall numbers declined.

 

Michaels' 3 year numbers against RHP are plenty good for a CF. Add in that he'll face some LHP in full time duty to raise those, and it's still a perfectly fine argument.

[Blueheart05]

There are much better ways of making a point about Michaels' offensive abilities. Unfortunately, this is not a reasonable argument. The nature of a platoon is to allow a guy to play to his strengths so pointing out that Michaels' and Lofton's platoon numbers were higher than the entire Cubs outfield doesn't necessarily mean that, given fulltime play, the same results will exist. You might want to point out that Michaels' splits are more than respectable (even though he batted 34 points higher against LHP). By comparison, when Murton batted only against LHP his numbers were exceptional however, the more he was exposed to RHP the more his overall numbers declined.

 

Michaels' 3 year numbers against RHP are plenty good for a CF. Add in that he'll face some LHP in full time duty to raise those, and it's still a perfectly fine argument.

 

I didn't say his numbers weren't good against RHP. My point has to do with using an extreme example of a platoon and saying that the results should be used to support an argument for fulltime play.

[Neuby]

Jason Dubois is star in the making and so is Micheals remember we are all smarter than everyone working in MLB. Once everyone understands these rules we will all get along better.

[Blueheart05]

This trade is on hold pending the reliever the Indians get from Boston. Mota failed his physical.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Jason Dubois is star in the making and so is Micheals remember we are all smarter than everyone working in MLB. Once everyone understands these rules we will all get along better.

 

Yes, that's exactly what people are saying.

[Mizzou]

Re: Pierre vs. Michaels...

 

There's got to be a reason why Pierre has been an everyday player every year, and why Michaels has never been an everyday player.