Should McGwire be elected to the HOF next year?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

minor point here, but wasn't androstiene legal in 1998 when he got "caught" with it?

 

Yes, it was very much legal and he openly admitted using.

 

so people are basing their non-vote for McGwire on Canseco's book and the general increase in HR's during the 90's, coupled with his congressional statement, and through no basis of fact?

 

I think there was an FBI agent who also implicated McGwire...but his non-denial is what is mostly doing him in.

[K-Town]

You honestly think Ripken and Gwynn MAY have taken steroids? Gwynn looks like he may have taken on a couple of things, but steroids? Ripken, the man who didn't sit out a game and steroids which may cause muscle tears, pulls, etc.

 

Neither Ripken or Gwynn suddenly turned into a freak of nature like McGwire or Caminitti. Throw Sosa, Palmeiro, Pudge in this category as well. It doesn't matter to me if they play for the Cubs or Cards, they are still accused juicers.

 

Was it right that they only called certain members of MLB to testify? Probably not, but if you are investigating a murder in a city, do you question everyone in the city, or people who were "close" to the crime. Congress went after the people they believed to be "close" to the crime.

 

McGwire had his chance to tell them what happened, and he didn't do it for whatever reason. If you think Mac was playing the game with Congress and didn't want to answer their questions out of spite, then shame on him. He did nothing to help baseball with the problems they (Congress) were trying to get rid of. If not for Congress, baseball would be exactly where it was before the hearings.

 

Call me a tradionalist, call me old fashioned, call me an idiot, but anyone who "cheats" the game should not be allowed in the Hall. Pete Rose isn't in, but he never "admitted" to betting on the Reds. Shoeless Joe isn't in, and by looking at his numbers the only thing he was guilty of doing in the Series is taking money, but not "blowing" the game.

 

Mac had his opportunity to come out and say he didn't do steroids, and he didn't do it. He could have cleared his name from it, but chose not to. It is not just Mac either, the same could be said when Bonds or Sosa are up for the Hall. However, that won't be for at least 5 more years.

 

Mac set the bar it terms of power hitters when he played and I think he'll set the bar in terms of alleged steroid users and the Hall of Fame as well.

 

McGwire had NO chance to "clear his name". Sosa denied using. Nobody believes him. Nobody would have believed McGwire, either.

 

Did McGwire add muscle mass? Sure he did. He also admitted to using Andro, which wasn't "cheating". What do you want him to admit to?

 

The Congressional hearing wasn't a "fact-finding" mission. What facts did they find out from the players? None! It was nothing but political propoganda.

[K-Town]

minor point here, but wasn't androstiene legal in 1998 when he got "caught" with it?

 

Yes, it was very much legal and he openly admitted using.

 

so people are basing their non-vote for McGwire on Canseco's book and the general increase in HR's during the 90's, coupled with his congressional statement, and through no basis of fact?

 

I think there was an FBI agent who also implicated McGwire...but his non-denial is what is mostly doing him in.

 

I agree....... that's what's "doing him in". I also agree with those who say that the voters probably won't let him in.

 

My point is that it's bogus. When they want to judge EVERYBODY the same way that they judge McGwire, then it'll be justice. Until then, it's simply a witch-hunt.

 

What about amphetamines? What about cocaine? What about all of those years when players had an "unfair advantage", because the best blacks, hispanics, etc. weren't allowed to play? You think there weren't statistics "beefed up" because only the best white, American players were allowed in the game?

 

Singling out steroids, and then specifically only pointing the finger at certain players for it, is bogus and hypocritical.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I've heard some reporters say the biggest strike against McGwire is that he volunteered to assist in encouraging young people to stay off steroids at the hearing and has done nothing since.

 

To some, keeping him out of the hall might send the message.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Two observations:

 

1) There's no reason at all for Sosa's name to be brought up

 

2) If McGwire was traded to the Mets instead of the Cardinals, half of these posts about him wouldn't have been made.

 

I'll say it again. He was putting up HOF caliber numbers before he was traded to STL and the ensuing Andro/Steroid controversy. Take a look at his numbers, he was always good.

[K-Town]

I've heard some reporters say the biggest strike against McGwire is that he volunteered to assist in encouraging young people to stay off steroids at the hearing and has done nothing since.

 

To some, keeping him out of the hall might send the message.

 

I don't think he "volunteered". I think when he was asked if he would help, he said he would. Has anybody asked for his help? Has anybody asked him to speak anywhere?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I've heard some reporters say the biggest strike against McGwire is that he volunteered to assist in encouraging young people to stay off steroids at the hearing and has done nothing since.

 

To some, keeping him out of the hall might send the message.

 

I don't think he "volunteered". I think when he was asked if he would help, he said he would. Has anybody asked for his help? Has anybody asked him to speak anywhere?

 

I didn't say that had any effect on me, but in numerous articles on the subject, I've seen it mentioned.

 

My biggest issue, is his repeated statements that he doesn't want to talk about the past. If that's the case, why should we consider any of his "past" in electing him to the HOF?

[K-Town]

I've heard some reporters say the biggest strike against McGwire is that he volunteered to assist in encouraging young people to stay off steroids at the hearing and has done nothing since.

 

To some, keeping him out of the hall might send the message.

 

I don't think he "volunteered". I think when he was asked if he would help, he said he would. Has anybody asked for his help? Has anybody asked him to speak anywhere?

 

I didn't say that had any effect on me, but in numerous articles on the subject, I've seen it mentioned.

 

My biggest issue, is his repeated statements that he doesn't want to talk about the past. If that's the case, why should we consider any of his "past" in electing him to the HOF?

 

He never said that he didn't want to talk about the past, did he?

 

He said (paraphrasing) "I'm not HERE to talk about the past", meaning that he wasn't going to be a player in Congress' little circus.

 

My interpretation - there's an appropriate time and a place to talk about certain things. A HOF ceremony would certainly be an appropriate time and place to talk about his baseball accomplishments.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I've heard some reporters say the biggest strike against McGwire is that he volunteered to assist in encouraging young people to stay off steroids at the hearing and has done nothing since.

 

To some, keeping him out of the hall might send the message.

 

I don't think he "volunteered". I think when he was asked if he would help, he said he would. Has anybody asked for his help? Has anybody asked him to speak anywhere?

 

I didn't say that had any effect on me, but in numerous articles on the subject, I've seen it mentioned.

 

My biggest issue, is his repeated statements that he doesn't want to talk about the past. If that's the case, why should we consider any of his "past" in electing him to the HOF?

 

He never said that he didn't want to talk about the past, did he?

 

He said (paraphrasing) "I'm not HERE to talk about the past", meaning that he wasn't going to be a player in Congress' little circus.

 

My interpretation - there's an appropriate time and a place to talk about certain things. A HOF ceremony would certainly be an appropriate time and place to talk about his baseball accomplishments.

 

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

[DesMoinesCub]

You are right, it was nothing more then propoganda. However, I don't believe baseball would have changed anything if not pressured by Congress. It was a chance for some big named politician to make a bigger name for themselves, but it helped clean up the game.

 

I also understand that Andro was legal during this time. Mac openly admitted to using it. Then why wouldn't he come out and say that he didn't take steroids and that the muscle was gained from Andro.

 

I think Mac deserves to be in the HOF. Depending on if he used steroids would determine if he is a first ballet or not. I just wish that he would end any speculation by coming out and saying I didn't do it. Unfortunately, many people (sportswriters/fans/baseball people) are looking at Mac as a steroid user by his testimony at the Congressional hearings and won't change their opinion until something is said or done to prove otherwise.

 

The reason Sosa's name gets mentioned is because Sosa and Mac are in the same boat. Sosa said he never took steroids, Mac didn't say anything. Nobody believes Sosa, nobody believes Mac. I personally feel if Mac doesn't make the Hall, the Sosa will have a hard time as well. Really sad since Sosa and Mac brought a lot of fans back to baseball.

[K-Town]

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

 

He may not get the opportunity........... you're right.

 

My guess is that the sun will still shine on he and his family at their California home, even if he doesn't get into the HOF. He'll be fine.

 

Why would anybody ask him that, at a HOF ceremony? Unless it's going to be standard for them to ask ALL inductees, then it wouldn't be appropriate, and I think he'd be wise to tell them to kiss his .......".

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think there's almost no chance that McGwire will go in next year. With Ripken and Gwynn, there's just too many writers that will withhold the vote. I think his chances rise significantly in the years that follow.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

 

He may not get the opportunity........... you're right.

 

My guess is that the sun will still shine on he and his family at their California home, even if he doesn't get into the HOF. He'll be fine.

 

Why would anybody ask him that, at a HOF ceremony? Unless it's going to be standard for them to ask ALL inductees, then it wouldn't be appropriate, and I think he'd be wise to tell them to kiss his .......".

 

I gurantee that if he goes in, someone (and probably more than one) will ask.

[K-Town]

You are right, it was nothing more then propoganda. However, I don't believe baseball would have changed anything if not pressured by Congress. It was a chance for some big named politician to make a bigger name for themselves, but it helped clean up the game.

 

I also understand that Andro was legal during this time. Mac openly admitted to using it. Then why wouldn't he come out and say that he didn't take steroids and that the muscle was gained from Andro.

 

 

Baseball didn't need to embarrass ex-baseball players in order to help. They could have helped without hand-picking big-name players, and dragging them through the mud. If they needed names, then why wasn't Clemens there? Why wasn't Bonds? Why wasn't Bagwell? Why wasn't Pujols?

 

They had an easy target for their mud-slinging mission. McGwire fit into their agenda, so they used him. It was a farce.

 

As for Andro........ he wasn't asked about it. And, he wasn't there to play Congress' little games. And he didn't.

[DesMoinesCub]

I would hope that IF Mac makes the HOF, that the people covering it would have the class to not say anything. Unfortunately, you know that someone will try to make a name for themself and ask. Let him have his day where his baseball moments are treasured, and the off field problems left behind.

[K-Town]

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

 

He may not get the opportunity........... you're right.

 

My guess is that the sun will still shine on he and his family at their California home, even if he doesn't get into the HOF. He'll be fine.

 

Why would anybody ask him that, at a HOF ceremony? Unless it's going to be standard for them to ask ALL inductees, then it wouldn't be appropriate, and I think he'd be wise to tell them to kiss his .......".

 

I gurantee that if he goes in, someone (and probably more than one) will ask.

 

And I guarantee you that he'll politely tell them to go pester someone else, because he's not interested in making them famous by giving them something to print in their paper.

 

They're wasting their time, if they ask him.

[DesMoinesCub]

I know Mac wasn't asked about it at the hearings, but he did admit to taking it, correct?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I would hope that IF Mac makes the HOF, that the people covering it would have the class to not say anything. Unfortunately, you know that someone will try to make a name for themself and ask. Let him have his day where his baseball moments are treasured, and the off field problems left behind.

 

I think the difference is that to many, this isn't "off the field problems." When looking at his record, and the records of many others, people want to know did substances contribute and if so, try to determine the effects.

 

This isn't the same as Wade Boggs extra-martial affairs which weren't and shouldn't have been mentioned during or around the time of his induction. Those had nothing to do with what he was being recognized for.

 

If a player took steroids while playing baseball and putting up HOF numbers, then it would be relevant to the other factors of his induction.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

 

He may not get the opportunity........... you're right.

 

My guess is that the sun will still shine on he and his family at their California home, even if he doesn't get into the HOF. He'll be fine.

 

Why would anybody ask him that, at a HOF ceremony? Unless it's going to be standard for them to ask ALL inductees, then it wouldn't be appropriate, and I think he'd be wise to tell them to kiss his .......".

 

I gurantee that if he goes in, someone (and probably more than one) will ask.

 

And I guarantee you that he'll politely tell them to go pester someone else, because he's not interested in making them famous by giving them something to print in their paper.

 

They're wasting their time, if they ask him.

 

And I think many voters will withhold a vote until he answers them. So, my guess is before he's elected, we'll have the answers.

[DesMoinesCub]

Your right it wasn't off the field problems, but like K-Town has mentioned, where do you stop?

[K-Town]

I would hope that IF Mac makes the HOF, that the people covering it would have the class to not say anything. Unfortunately, you know that someone will try to make a name for themself and ask. Let him have his day where his baseball moments are treasured, and the off field problems left behind.

 

I think the difference is that to many, this isn't "off the field problems." When looking at his record, and the records of many others, people want to know did substances contribute and if so, try to determine the effects.

 

This isn't the same as Wade Boggs extra-martial affairs which weren't and shouldn't have been mentioned during or around the time of his induction. Those had nothing to do with what he was being recognized for.

 

If a player took steroids while playing baseball and putting up HOF numbers, then it would be relevant to the other factors of his induction.

 

Fine. The fact that blacks weren't allowed to play is also relevant. The fact that Babe Ruth didn't have to face the best players in the world, like today's players do, is relevant. Players who used cocaine and amphetamines surely had their game altered by those drugs.

 

Until you're prepared to interrogate EVERY player about EVERYTHING, then leave McGwire alone.

[K-Town]

According to polls of the voters, it looks as if he may not get to do so on that opportunity.

 

And what if at the HOF press conference, someone asks him if he took steroids, would that be a time for him to come clean?

 

He may not get the opportunity........... you're right.

 

My guess is that the sun will still shine on he and his family at their California home, even if he doesn't get into the HOF. He'll be fine.

 

Why would anybody ask him that, at a HOF ceremony? Unless it's going to be standard for them to ask ALL inductees, then it wouldn't be appropriate, and I think he'd be wise to tell them to kiss his .......".

 

I gurantee that if he goes in, someone (and probably more than one) will ask.

 

And I guarantee you that he'll politely tell them to go pester someone else, because he's not interested in making them famous by giving them something to print in their paper.

 

They're wasting their time, if they ask him.

 

And I think many voters will withhold a vote until he answers them. So, my guess is before he's elected, we'll have the answers.

 

And my guess is that, at some point, Mark McGwire won't give two hoots what the voters think about him. If they're going to be THAT hypocritical, then I don't think he wants their vote, anyway. If that means not being in the HOF, then life goes on for him.

 

Like I said, the sun will still shine on he and his family in California. That's what matters to him. The HOF? If it means that he has to be somebody's "scoop" in the newspaper, then I think he'll pass.

[Andy]

I know Mac wasn't asked about it at the hearings, but he did admit to taking it, correct?

Other than andro, I do not believe Mac has admitted to taking anything that is currently disallowed by baseball.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Fine. The fact that blacks weren't allowed to play is also relevant. The fact that Babe Ruth didn't have to face the best players in the world, like today's players do, is relevant. Players who used cocaine and amphetamines surely had their game altered by those drugs.

 

Until you're prepared to interrogate EVERY player about EVERYTHING, then leave McGwire alone.

 

You're right. All those things could be relevant. Some even believe that the drug scandal is what has kept Dave Parker out of the Hall. Albert Belle seems to have been penalized for being a total jackass, while Ralph Kiner gets in with a shorter career and similar numbers. The voters have never been consistent. That's a proven fact.

 

What does seem clear is that most, if not all, voters seem to take their task as keeper of the gates to baseball's Valhalla serious business. They would rather err on the side of caution in not letting someone in than be too generous with admission. (The old vet committee was a different animal, however.)

 

I think they believe, or many do, that since a player is on the ballot for 15 years, there isn't the urgency to make sure everyone who may be deserving gets in on their first try. They also have seemed to use the HOF to make statements as well.

 

What seems abundantly clear is that today's voters want to make a statement about the "steroid era." This is especially true of older voters who have watched the records of Maris and others fall to chemically enhanced athletes.

 

You can say, "unless you're prepared to interogate every athlete, leave McGwire alone," but my guess is that such rhetoric would fall upon deaf ears with the HOF voters. As I've mentioned earlier, they set their own standards and are accountable to no one. My guess is that they don't see the black issue or the amphetamine issue or the cocaine issue in the same light as they do the steroid issue. Is that fair? I guess each individual will have to answer for themselves. And, yes, though, I think they will end up leaving McGwire alone. Which means he won't be sharing that podium with Gwynn and Ripken in 2007. Will he be there in 2008 and beyond? I don't know. That may depend more on McGwire than anything else.

[K-Town]

 

Fine. The fact that blacks weren't allowed to play is also relevant. The fact that Babe Ruth didn't have to face the best players in the world, like today's players do, is relevant. Players who used cocaine and amphetamines surely had their game altered by those drugs.

 

Until you're prepared to interrogate EVERY player about EVERYTHING, then leave McGwire alone.

 

You're right. All those things could be relevant. Some even believe that the drug scandal is what has kept Dave Parker out of the Hall. Albert Belle seems to have been penalized for being a total jackass, while Ralph Kiner gets in with a shorter career and similar numbers. The voters have never been consistent. That's a proven fact.

 

What does seem clear is that most, if not all, voters seem to take their task as keeper of the gates to baseball's Valhalla serious business. They would rather err on the side of caution in not letting someone in than be too generous with admission. (The old vet committee was a different animal, however.)

 

I think they believe, or many do, that since a player is on the ballot for 15 years, there isn't the urgency to make sure everyone who may be deserving gets in on their first try. They also have seemed to use the HOF to make statements as well.

 

What seems abundantly clear is that today's voters want to make a statement about the "steroid era." This is especially true of older voters who have watched the records of Maris and others fall to chemically enhanced athletes.

 

You can say, "unless you're prepared to interogate every athlete, leave McGwire alone," but my guess is that such rhetoric would fall upon deaf ears with the HOF voters. As I've mentioned earlier, they set their own standards and are accountable to no one. My guess is that they don't see the black issue or the amphetamine issue or the cocaine issue in the same light as they do the steroid issue. Is that fair? I guess each individual will have to answer for themselves. And, yes, though, I think they will end up leaving McGwire alone. Which means he won't be sharing that podium with Gwynn and Ripken in 2007. Will he be there in 2008 and beyond? I don't know. That may depend more on McGwire than anything else.

 

 

Oh, I agree that they'll "make a statement" (they do, every chance they get).

 

I just disagree with it.