Rogers rips Cubs on Patterson's demise

[don_kessinger_was_good]

For once, a Phil Rogers column that makes a lot of sense. Nothing we haven't said on this site before of course, many many times, but nice to see someone in the media putting the blame not only on Patterson--who deserves a lot of it--but on Baker and Hendry and the Cubs organization as well.

 

A piece making nice about Don Baylor, who knew?

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-060109rogers,1,1354654.column?coll=cs-cubs-utility

[Balsa]

It appears he does have moments of sanity....amazing...

[SteveSarley]

Rogers says:

 

'That they were unable to break Patterson's slide, is an indictment of Baker and his two hitting coaches, Clines and Matthews.'

 

'Should Patterson somehow turn in a good season—25-30 homers isn't out of the question, it would be a huge indictment of Baker and his coaches.'

 

Which one was supposed to swing the bat for Corey, Dusty, Clines or Sarge?

 

If Patterson has the putrid season I would expect, based on past performance, is that a huge indictment of Phil Rogers?

[nolanwood]

Excellent article that tells it how it is.....the cubs ruined Patterson with their usual bad decision making. Granted, Patterson is somewhat of a lazy ballplayer, and there's no excuse for dropping out of winterball in '01 and refusing to play this offseason. BUT, I place 80% of his demise on the Cubs organization.

[gflore34]

Rogers says:

 

'That they were unable to break Patterson's slide, is an indictment of Baker and his two hitting coaches, Clines and Matthews.'

 

'Should Patterson somehow turn in a good season—25-30 homers isn't out of the question, it would be a huge indictment of Baker and his coaches.'

 

Which one was supposed to swing the bat for Corey, Dusty, Clines or Sarge?

 

If Patterson has the putrid season I would expect, based on past performance, is that a huge indictment of Phil Rogers?

 

 

I was thinking along the same lines, granted the Cubs coaches are barely competent if at all, but, do we really think they're that inept as to not work with Corey on pitch selection and working the count? Most especially the Sarge, think he knows about taking a pitch or two and working the count? Remember 1984? When is it the player’s responsibility? We like to blame every failure on Cubs management but, at some point the player has to be solely responsible for success or failure.

[nolanwood]

This is where the Cubs failed....

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

In 2002 he was the starter.

 

There is an obvious decline as he was moved up, and if that's not enough proof that he needed considerably more time in the minor's, then I don't know what is!

 

AND, I see so many similarities to the the same scenario happening with Pie....

[RynoRules]

I also liked Rogers' column, but not b/c it ripped the Cubs. I liked it b/c it was balanced. It assessed blame on both parties, and rightfully so.

 

Someone should edit the title of this thread to reflect that.

[RynoRules]

This is where the Cubs failed....

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

In 2002 he was the starter.

 

There is an obvious decline as he was moved up, and if that's not enough proof that he needed considerably more time in the minor's, then I don't know what is!

 

AND, I see so many similarities to the the same scenario happening with Pie....

 

Yeah, except Pie's fate is unknown at this point and he had a solid season in AA last year, ifmemory serves. So you are guessing, right?

[CUBZ99]

This is where the Cubs failed....

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

In 2002 he was the starter.

 

There is an obvious decline as he was moved up, and if that's not enough proof that he needed considerably more time in the minor's, then I don't know what is!

 

AND, I see so many similarities to the the same scenario happening with Pie....

 

Pie has put up good numbers at every stop so far, and is starting to hit with power without a huge sacrifice in OBP or BA. There is not much of a comparison of the two.

[nolanwood]

This is where the Cubs failed....

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

In 2002 he was the starter.

 

There is an obvious decline as he was moved up, and if that's not enough proof that he needed considerably more time in the minor's, then I don't know what is!

 

AND, I see so many similarities to the the same scenario happening with Pie....

 

Yeah, except Pie's fate is unknown at this point and he had a solid season in AA last year, ifmemory serves. So you are guessing, right?

 

Yes, solely a guess on my part....

 

AND, Pie has had ALOT more success in the minor's than Patterson ever did. The problem I'm afraid of is if Pie has an unsuccessful '06 season in the minor's the Cubs will bring him up too soon. If Pie has another great season, however, I would have no problem or complaints with him advancing to the major's.

 

The main "similarites" I was referring to is if the Cubs brought him up when he wasnt ready.....however, I think he's a whole lot closer to being ready than Patterson ever was.

[TheDude]

Hogwash. The Cubs didn't ruin Patterson. Corey did it to himself.

[nolanwood]

Hogwash. The Cubs didn't ruin Patterson. Corey did it to himself.

 

I agree Corey's laziness played a role in his demise, but would you bring a player up to start CF for your 100mil team with this kind of advancement:

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

He very clearly struggled at every level he was advanced to, and the jump to the majors is not a small one....

Edited January 10, 2006 by nolanwood

[brfahey]

I think Rogers is just upset that the Cubs didn't trade Zambrano and now he doesn't know what to write about.

 

On Patterson, maybe he was rushed. And maybe he just wasn't that good. Mediocre numbers in the minors could be a product of being rushed or a product of not being good.

[Soul]

There's enough blame to go around.

 

I don't disagree with Rogers. I just supplement what he said with the fact that Corey also is to blame.

 

Now that CPatt is a newcomer with Baltimore, I'll bet he makes more of an effort to improve. He can no longer fall back on the "I'm a veteran with this ballclub" excuse, either with his coaches or in his own mind. He's low man on the totem-pole now.

[TheDude]

Hogwash. The Cubs didn't ruin Patterson. Corey did it to himself.

 

I agree Corey's laziness played a role in his demise, but would you bring a player up to start CF for your 100mil team with this kind of advancement:

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

He very clearly struggled at every level he was advanced to, and the jump to the majors is not a small one....

 

Maybe he was rushed, but I get tired of the no-win scenarios fans place on management. If he doesn't get the playing time at the ML level then it's because the manager hates kids and won't give them a chance.

 

For some reason people expect all kids to have a formulaic culturing process through the minors. If they get there before age 23 they're rushed, and if they don't hit MLB at the specific age of 25, then they suddenly become to old to ever make it.

 

It simply doesn't work that way. The Cubs took a chance on Patterson and it didn't work. End of story.

[nolanwood]

Hogwash. The Cubs didn't ruin Patterson. Corey did it to himself.

 

I agree Corey's laziness played a role in his demise, but would you bring a player up to start CF for your 100mil team with this kind of advancement:

 

low-A Lansing: 320 with 20 homers and 33 stolen bases

 

Skip high A: (which is very understandable)

 

AA: .261

 

AAA: .253

 

MLB thru 59 games: .221

 

He very clearly struggled at every level he was advanced to, and the jump to the majors is not a small one....

 

Maybe he was rushed, but I get tired of the no-win scenarios fans place on management. If he doesn't get the playing time at the ML level then it's because the manager hates kids and won't give them a chance.

 

For some reason people expect all kids to have a formulaic culturing process through the minors. If they get there before age 23 they're rushed, and if they don't hit MLB at the specific age of 25, then they suddenly become to old to ever make it.

 

It simply doesn't work that way. The Cubs took a chance on Patterson and it didn't work. End of story.

 

His age had absolutely no bearing on my opinion as to him being rushed. He was rushed because he declined significantly at every level he was promoted to. Teams take chances on every single player drafted, nothing is a given. Patterson's ridiculous success at the high school level reduced that amount of chance by a large sum. The Cubs rushed him through the system and blatantly ignored that he was not improving when advanced to a higher level. End of story.

[RynoRules]

There's enough blame to go around.

 

[Wheelimus]

To me, all of the blame lays with the Cubs organization, because we'll never know what he could have been with proper progression.

 

Sorry, when the kid hit .261 at AA and was fast becoming the human strikeout machine, he should have had to repeat AA the next season, maybe with a promotion to AAA later on if he figured things out. But you damn well bet in 2001 he should have stayed in the minors. 2002? You would have thought the team would have seen his .284 on base percentage as something he should work out in the minors.

 

But instead of working out his problems in small towns riding a bus to games (aka, being humbled), he was supposed to work those out in the bright lights of the big city. Sorry, but just about any 22 year old rushed from the minors and brought to the Chi is going to flop.

 

Corey certainly shares some of the blame for never getting what his coaches were trying to tell him, but what is he supposed to do? Every year from 2000 keep repeating "i'm not ready, please demote me"?

[Bull]

I agree Wheelimus. Not an excuse, but in what other big city is "the team" so important? New York and LA have much bigger celebrities, and boston isn't quite the city Chicago is.

[CubbieRich]

But CPatt must bear the majority of it. He refused to change his batting style-learn the strike zone, choke up, learn to bunt to use his speed, etc... He refused to go to winter ball to make any changes to his game. He had an opinion of the type of player he was and he was wrong. His attitude was terrible and it showed. The sight of him strolling back to the dugout after failing for the 100th time and looking out towards the bleachers with a lost look on his face, is something I will not miss.

 

But Hendry is losing ground fast. His fabled minor league system has failed to produce an everyday player in years. They draft college pitchers with history of injuries(Brownlie), small players with average talent(Greenburg), catchers who can't catch and the list goes on.. From Nic Jackson, Bobby Hill, Brooks Kieshnick, Corey Patterson, Gene Clines, Hee Seop Choi, Luis Montanez to an endless list of losers.

[Brendan]

i'm just curious, why is it such a common opinion that corey is/was lazy?

[Gunned]

To me, all of the blame lays with the Cubs organization, because we'll never know what he could have been with proper progression.

 

Sorry, when the kid hit .261 at AA and was fast becoming the human strikeout machine, he should have had to repeat AA the next season, maybe with a promotion to AAA later on if he figured things out. But you damn well bet in 2001 he should have stayed in the minors. 2002? You would have thought the team would have seen his .284 on base percentage as something he should work out in the minors.

 

But instead of working out his problems in small towns riding a bus to games (aka, being humbled), he was supposed to work those out in the bright lights of the big city. Sorry, but just about any 22 year old rushed from the minors and brought to the Chi is going to flop.

 

Corey certainly shares some of the blame for never getting what his coaches were trying to tell him, but what is he supposed to do? Every year from 2000 keep repeating "i'm not ready, please demote me"?

 

ALL of the blame? I think Corey was handled improperly, but it's become pretty clear that while Corey is a talented athlete, he's not a talented baseball player.

[RockTheIvy]

CPatt's gone, one more round, Cpatt's gone.

 

He was never going to do anything here, and whether that's his fault or the organization's fault, it doesn't really matter. And Rogers is still stoooopid.

[Tim]

He was never going to do anything here, and whether that's his fault or the organization's fault, it doesn't really matter. And Rogers is still stoooopid.

The most similar situation I can think of to Corey's in recent times is Pat Burrell in 2003. He was a former blue-chip prospect who had had some success in the bigs, but had a simply dreadful year, looked awful doing it and the fans booed him mercilessly (it is Philly, afterall). At that time, Philly could have dumped him for next to nothing (his contract was much worse than Corey's) and used all the same excuses that the Cubs just have used. Time to move on, change of scenery, trying to compete this year, blah, blah, blah. Pat the Bat has come back pretty well and I think Philly is pretty happy they showed the patience in him at this point.

 

I just don't understand why people insist that it is absolutely impossible that Corey could ever come back and do well in Chicago. It is impossible to know.

[RockTheIvy]

He was never going to do anything here, and whether that's his fault or the organization's fault, it doesn't really matter. And Rogers is still stoooopid.

The most similar situation I can think of to Corey's in recent times is Pat Burrell in 2003. He was a former blue-chip prospect who had had some success in the bigs, but had a simply dreadful year, looked awful doing it and the fans booed him mercilessly (it is Philly, afterall). At that time, Philly could have dumped him for next to nothing (his contract was much worse than Corey's) and used all the same excuses that the Cubs just have used. Time to move on, change of scenery, trying to compete this year, blah, blah, blah. Pat the Bat has come back pretty well and I think Philly is pretty happy they showed the patience in him at this point.

 

I just don't understand why people insist that it is absolutely impossible that Corey could ever come back and do well in Chicago. It is impossible to know.

 

I wish Corey could have done well here. He had so much potential. The Pat Burrell situation is a pretty good analogy, IMO, except that Burrell still hit 20+ homers that year and walked over 70 times. You would think though, that if a player could recover from a .209/.309/.404 season in BooSantaLand, that Corey could recover here.

 

I would have liked to platoon Corey in right with a Restovich or even Grissom (yikes), and see what he could do hitting 6th or 7th for a prolonged period of time. I imagine he has a higher upside than Jock?