Corey Patterson traded to Balt. (per Levine)

[JeffH]

their was no one on base

 

Shocking!

[RockTheIvy]

Also, despite Lee's monster season, he still didn't set a career high in walks, again showing our organizations love/hate relationship with the free pass (Hate- hitters who walk/Love- pichers who walk hitters).

:shock: (really, I hadn't noticed he didn't get his high, that's astonishing)

 

In '02 and '03 he walked 98 and 88 times respectively. Last year, only 85 walks. The Chubbs really do hate the walk.

 

I usually want a guy to try to work the count for walks. But if a guy is seeing the ball and hitting like Lee was last year, if he gets a pitch he can handle I want him to drive it. I guess I'm saying I'd rather see his OBP go up with a double than with a walk.

 

Bottom line is: its about OBP not walks, and his OBP was a carreer high.

It's still shocking that as well as he was hitting he wouldn't have enough PAs where the pitcher had no interest in throwing a strike to top his best

 

But that's still not evidence of the Cubs' hitting philosophy not valuing walks. (not that we need that peice of evidence for a conviction).

 

Its evidence that either the league continued to think Lee would slow down, or that since their was no one on base and often no threat behind him, that they weren't that worried if he gapped a double. I'm going with 2.

 

He did have a career high in IBBs. I agree with you Mr. Wood, that the bottom line is how high the OBP is. But I think walk rates tend to be more static from year to year. I was hoping Lee's would have jumped up so that we could see another .400+ OBP from him without him having to hit .330.

[Jon]

Mike Kiley[/url]"]Hendry doesn't buy criticism that Corey Patterson -- traded to the Orioles on Monday -- was rushed to the big leagues in 2001 or that the Cubs didn't give him enough off-field support for him to mature as a player.

 

''It's how people make the adjustments after getting here and having some success,'' Hendry said. ''I don't think any of us ever thought Corey would have a season like '05.

 

''To lay the onus on certain hitting coaches or what month he came up, that's counterproductive. And we're not going to lay it all on him. It's part of the game. It didn't work out for us like we thought it would.''

It's okay to look at your own organization to see where it needs improvements and examine what mistakes it has made in the past. Give it a try sometime, Jim.

[RynoRules]

But to go 0 for everybody in regards to position players? Since I have been watching the Cubs, about thirty years ago, I can think of only one top-notch position player drafted by the Cubs: Bill Madlock. Who was let go over money, of course.

 

If I've left anyone out, please list.

 

I know scouts aren't "expected to always be right", but for the love of God, the Cubs track record is abysmal. And just because scouts "are mostly wrong" excuses the Cubs ability to target everyday successful big leaguers?

 

I'd like to see just ONE guy in my lifetime. I guess I'll just wait to see the next "golden boy", Felix Pie. Given the Cubs success, I have my doubts.

 

Bill Madlock came up through the minor league system of the Washington Senators (Now the Rangers). He was part of the trade for Ferguson Jenkins after the 1973 season.

 

As Tim pointed out above, there was Grace and Palmeiro in the 80's. You could possibly add Shawon Dunston from that same time period, although many would question him.

 

Going back before that, you have Brock, Hubbs, Williams & Santo from the early 60's..... and that about sums it up for the last 45 years. [sigh]

 

And Joe Carter. Too bad we cut bait, but at least we got Sutt in that deal. I love The Red Baron.

[CubinNY]

Mike Kiley[/url]"]Hendry doesn't buy criticism that Corey Patterson -- traded to the Orioles on Monday -- was rushed to the big leagues in 2001 or that the Cubs didn't give him enough off-field support for him to mature as a player.

 

''It's how people make the adjustments after getting here and having some success,'' Hendry said. ''I don't think any of us ever thought Corey would have a season like '05.

 

''To lay the onus on certain hitting coaches or what month he came up, that's counterproductive. And we're not going to lay it all on him. It's part of the game. It didn't work out for us like we thought it would.''

It's okay to look at your own organization to see where it needs improvements and examine what mistakes it has made in the past. Give it a try sometime, Jim.

 

I know that part really got me. I was going to post something about scapegoating but I didn't want to get into another Patterson is stupid debate.

[BigbadB]

But to go 0 for everybody in regards to position players? Since I have been watching the Cubs, about thirty years ago, I can think of only one top-notch position player drafted by the Cubs: Bill Madlock. Who was let go over money, of course.

 

If I've left anyone out, please list.

 

I know scouts aren't "expected to always be right", but for the love of God, the Cubs track record is abysmal. And just because scouts "are mostly wrong" excuses the Cubs ability to target everyday successful big leaguers?

 

I'd like to see just ONE guy in my lifetime. I guess I'll just wait to see the next "golden boy", Felix Pie. Given the Cubs success, I have my doubts.

 

Bill Madlock came up through the minor league system of the Washington Senators (Now the Rangers). He was part of the trade for Ferguson Jenkins after the 1973 season.

 

As Tim pointed out above, there was Grace and Palmeiro in the 80's. You could possibly add Shawon Dunston from that same time period, although many would question him.

 

Going back before that, you have Brock, Hubbs, Williams & Santo from the early 60's..... and that about sums it up for the last 45 years. [sigh]

 

And Joe Carter. Too bad we cut bait, but at least we got Sutt in that deal. I love The Red Baron.

 

Yeah, can't really complain about that trade. Without Sutcliffe on that team, they don't make the playoffs.

[Jon]

Mike Kiley[/url]"]Hendry doesn't buy criticism that Corey Patterson -- traded to the Orioles on Monday -- was rushed to the big leagues in 2001 or that the Cubs didn't give him enough off-field support for him to mature as a player.

 

''It's how people make the adjustments after getting here and having some success,'' Hendry said. ''I don't think any of us ever thought Corey would have a season like '05.

 

''To lay the onus on certain hitting coaches or what month he came up, that's counterproductive. And we're not going to lay it all on him. It's part of the game. It didn't work out for us like we thought it would.''

It's okay to look at your own organization to see where it needs improvements and examine what mistakes it has made in the past. Give it a try sometime, Jim.

 

I know that part really got me. I was going to post something about scapegoating but I didn't want to get into another Patterson is stupid debate.

The only adjustments Hendry seems to make are pretty superficial. Going from whatever the heck his philosophy was last year to catching the ball this year doesn't do a whole lot. The only coach that has been let go in the past few years was Wendell Kim and there was a huge push by everyone to get him out. He took away Sarge's title as batting instructor, but in name only. It's about time they start looking at the basics of their organization, from international scouting and minor league promotions to major league instruction and offensive philosophy (and change it to one that doesn't focus on rewarding old guys for being able to cash paychecks).

[Illini Iceman]

Mike Kiley[/url]"]Hendry doesn't buy criticism that Corey Patterson -- traded to the Orioles on Monday -- was rushed to the big leagues in 2001 or that the Cubs didn't give him enough off-field support for him to mature as a player.

 

''It's how people make the adjustments after getting here and having some success,'' Hendry said. ''I don't think any of us ever thought Corey would have a season like '05.

 

''To lay the onus on certain hitting coaches or what month he came up, that's counterproductive. And we're not going to lay it all on him. It's part of the game. It didn't work out for us like we thought it would.''

It's okay to look at your own organization to see where it needs improvements and examine what mistakes it has made in the past. Give it a try sometime, Jim.

 

I know that part really got me. I was going to post something about scapegoating but I didn't want to get into another Patterson is stupid debate.

The only adjustments Hendry seems to make are pretty superficial. Going from whatever the heck his philosophy was last year to catching the ball this year doesn't do a whole lot. The only coach that has been let go in the past few years was Wendell Kim and there was a huge push by everyone to get him out. He took away Sarge's title as batting instructor, but in name only. It's about time they start looking at the basics of their organization, from international scouting and minor league promotions to major league instruction and offensive philosophy (and change it to one that doesn't focus on rewarding old guys for being able to cash paychecks).

 

What do you mean by that?

[Guest]

I posted on the wrong forum when I asked this question but am only one who is upset or think this trade is crap???(I have not read through the 800 posts on this so far)

 

I would have still rather of kept Patterson than aquire these two **** prospects who will never do anything in Chicago.

 

Patterson at least has a chance to live up to his potential and if he doesn't, you lose him to FA and maybe, just maybe get a draft pick.

 

Its a lose lose situation for Chicago, you gave up someone of great talent who might by some miracle display the talent we thought we were drafting in 1998. But the Cubs traded him and get nothing in return. Might as well just of kept him and maybe the Cubs would get lucky. He still has something that never slumps and thats speed. He could of at the very least be a late inning pinch runner.

[CubinNY]

Mike Kiley[/url]"]Hendry doesn't buy criticism that Corey Patterson -- traded to the Orioles on Monday -- was rushed to the big leagues in 2001 or that the Cubs didn't give him enough off-field support for him to mature as a player.

 

''It's how people make the adjustments after getting here and having some success,'' Hendry said. ''I don't think any of us ever thought Corey would have a season like '05.

 

''To lay the onus on certain hitting coaches or what month he came up, that's counterproductive. And we're not going to lay it all on him. It's part of the game. It didn't work out for us like we thought it would.''

It's okay to look at your own organization to see where it needs improvements and examine what mistakes it has made in the past. Give it a try sometime, Jim.

 

I know that part really got me. I was going to post something about scapegoating but I didn't want to get into another Patterson is stupid debate.

The only adjustments Hendry seems to make are pretty superficial. Going from whatever the heck his philosophy was last year to catching the ball this year doesn't do a whole lot. The only coach that has been let go in the past few years was Wendell Kim and there was a huge push by everyone to get him out. He took away Sarge's title as batting instructor, but in name only. It's about time they start looking at the basics of their organization, from international scouting and minor league promotions to major league instruction and offensive philosophy (and change it to one that doesn't focus on rewarding old guys for being able to cash paychecks).

 

What do you mean by that?

 

I cannont speak for Jon but I think he may be talking about Perez.

[CubinNY]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

[CUBZ99]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

[CubinNY]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

 

No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe.

[CUBZ99]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

 

No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe.

 

Patterson's career numbers are worse than Neifi Perez's. I would say that qualifies as being pretty bad.

 

Having seen Jones play at the Metrodome and being familiar with his attitude, I think he will suprise many on this board.

[CubinNY]

Jones has a career OPS of 787

Patterson has a career OPS of 707.

[Tim]

Jones has a career OPS of 787

Patterson has a career OPS of 707.

Jones' numbers include his prime years, which he is past.

Patterson's numbers don't include his prime years, which he is nearing.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if your bet works out.

[RynoRules]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

 

No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe.

 

Patterson's career numbers are worse than Neifi Perez's. I would say that qualifies as being pretty bad.

 

Having seen Jones play at the Metrodome and being familiar with his attitude, I think he will suprise many on this board.

 

Hope you are right.

[BigbadB]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

 

No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe.

 

Patterson's career numbers are worse than Neifi Perez's. I would say that qualifies as being pretty bad.

 

Having seen Jones play at the Metrodome and being familiar with his attitude, I think he will suprise many on this board.

 

Jones is definitely moving to a more friendly hitter's division. He could show a surge offensively. But, he seems to be more of a ground ball hitter than a line drive hitter. That isn't going to help him a whole lot.

[Tim]

Five cyber dollars says Patterson has a better OPS than Jones in 2006.

 

Any want to take that bet?

 

Do you really believe that Jones is going to digress that badly?

 

No I believe Patterson isn't nearly as bad as some believe.

 

Patterson's career numbers are worse than Neifi Perez's. I would say that qualifies as being pretty bad.

 

Having seen Jones play at the Metrodome and being familiar with his attitude, I think he will suprise many on this board.

 

Jones is definitely moving to a more friendly hitter's division. He could show a surge offensively. But, he seems to be more of a ground ball hitter than a line drive hitter. That isn't going to help him a whole lot.

The NL Central has many more hitter's parks, but compare the pitching in the NL central to what he faced from KC & Detroit.

[BigbadB]

The NL Central has many more hitter's parks, but compare the pitching in the NL central to what he faced from KC & Detroit.

 

Would it count for something if I said that Cincinnati is twice as bad as Detroit and KC combined? :D

[frostwyrm]

The NL Central has many more hitter's parks, but compare the pitching in the NL central to what he faced from KC & Detroit.

I bet most of the members of this message board have a better chance of getting a hit off Andy Pettite than Jacque Jones does.

[Guancous]

Sorry, but I have to change the subject real quick. Frostwyrm, what play is your signature from? I've been following it for months.

[RockTheIvy]

Sorry, but I have to change the subject real quick. Frostwyrm, what play is your signature from? I've been following it for months.

 

While I enjoy the NKorean stuff, I long for the days of the Waffle House and the creepy shocked geriatric.

[Illini Iceman]

Sorry, but I have to change the subject real quick. Frostwyrm, what play is your signature from? I've been following it for months.

 

While I enjoy the NKorean stuff, I long for the days of the Waffle House and the creepy shocked geriatric.

 

Please no more of Macias's head coming out of the toilet.

[RockTheIvy]

Sorry, but I have to change the subject real quick. Frostwyrm, what play is your signature from? I've been following it for months.

 

While I enjoy the NKorean stuff, I long for the days of the Waffle House and the creepy shocked geriatric.

 

Please no more of Macias's head coming out of the toilet.

 

Hahah. Good call!