Corey Patterson traded to Balt. (per Levine)

[Blueheart05]

The general tone of your comments is about how others let Corey down. When does Corey take responsibility for his wildness at the plate? Coaches can talk until they're blue in the face (and I think that's exactly what they did) but if the player is unable or unwilling to make adjustments no real change will occur. Let's not fool ourselves. Corey Patterson has never been a disciplined hitter. In his one 'good' year (2003) he had a .329 OBP with .839 OPS which is not impressive. Corey was far too content being a hacker and quite frankly, he was misguided; He fashioned himself as a middle of the lineup run producer but he has yet to make the kind of concerted effort needed to be a real offensive threat. That is no one's fault but his own.

 

I also disagree that the Cubs haven't learned from rushing Corey to the Major Leagues. Pie will be spending an additional year (or more) in the minors for just this reason.

But he did make adjustments. That was the problem. They were completely the wrong ones to make. He fashioned himself a middle of the lineup run producer because that's the kind of player he is, yet the Cubs decided to ignore what his talents with the bat actually were. If or when he progresses to a point nearing his ceiling, the middle of the lineup is exactly where he was going to be. He led the Lugnuts in 2Bs, 3Bs, and HRs and the Diamond Jaxx in 2Bs and HRs right before making his big league debut at the age of 20. That's a middle of the order hitter.

 

Corey had a ways to go before getting there. Contact and strike recognition were his main problems and he had to really work on that. Everyone knew it wasn't going to be easy for him and yet they decided to pile it on by trying to change his whole game. It ruined his season.

 

And Pie was going to be up last season at the age of 20 if not for his ankle injury. Hendry already confirmed that.

 

 

Patterson's Minor League numbers are not necessarily representative of the type of player he can become in the MLs. One thing is for sure, he has never shown the kind of discipline necessary to be considered a contact hitter. Major League pitchers make adjustments on hitters. Corey was not able to tailor his swing to counterbalance the changes others were making against him. Were the Cubs suppose to allow him to continue swinging wildly in the middle of the lineup when more effective options were available? Absolutely not!

 

Yes, Pie would have been called up last year. The Cubs season was already over so there was no reason not to give him a look. That doesn't necessarily mean they would have considered him to start CF in 2006. Pie, like Patterson has some strikeout issues to overcome.

[cjbucks]

I haven't read the 8 pages of this thread. I just want to exress my disappointment in the Cubs once again settling on making a deal with no leverage whatsoever. There is just no sense in the manner in which this management team negotiates, evaluates or makes transactions in general.

 

Leverage, what leverage? As Bruce Miles stated on this forum just a few days ago Corey was not a hot name at all throughout the baseball world.

 

Well, you've made the point for me. He had no leverage. At all. Thus, it makes more sense to gamble into creating some leverage through 1) better play at the ML level; 2) better play at AAA; or 3) need created though injury in ST or the first part of the season.

 

Negotiating is all about leverage. Trading players without any is just stupid when you know a player has talent (e.g. Corey). If it were some clown like Macias, when you are unlikely to get anything more than you've seen over his stay with the Cubs, then the likelihood of gaining leverage is low if not non-existent. But, that isn't the case with Corey.

 

It is bad negotiating, pure and simple.

 

It is always easier to make comments like this after the fact.

 

Why, pray tell, is that the case? I have been anticipating this lackluster move (as have many) since October. Hendry moved Sammy at his lowest value (and, in fact, contributed to lowering his value). Hendry is more interested in a clean clubhouse rather than addressing messes that he had his hand in manufacturing.

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

When would you have moved Sosa? After the 2003 season?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

 

The guy was awful in 2005, awful. In '03 and '04 he was an average to good offensive CF while providing great defense. He has done something as a major leaguer. There shouldn't be a great urgency to trade Patterson. His value can't get lower, and there's not a huge roster crunch to get him off the roster, so why not wait until his value inevitably rises?

[JC]

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

 

If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million.

[Mark_R]

I haven't read the 8 pages of this thread. I just want to exress my disappointment in the Cubs once again settling on making a deal with no leverage whatsoever. There is just no sense in the manner in which this management team negotiates, evaluates or makes transactions in general.

 

Leverage, what leverage? As Bruce Miles stated on this forum just a few days ago Corey was not a hot name at all throughout the baseball world.

 

Well, you've made the point for me. He had no leverage. At all. Thus, it makes more sense to gamble into creating some leverage through 1) better play at the ML level; 2) better play at AAA; or 3) need created though injury in ST or the first part of the season.

 

Negotiating is all about leverage. Trading players without any is just stupid when you know a player has talent (e.g. Corey). If it were some clown like Macias, when you are unlikely to get anything more than you've seen over his stay with the Cubs, then the likelihood of gaining leverage is low if not non-existent. But, that isn't the case with Corey.

 

It is bad negotiating, pure and simple.

 

It is always easier to make comments like this after the fact.

 

Why, pray tell, is that the case? I have been anticipating this lackluster move (as have many) since October. Hendry moved Sammy at his lowest value (and, in fact, contributed to lowering his value). Hendry is more interested in a clean clubhouse rather than addressing messes that he had his hand in manufacturing.

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

When should we have moved Corey then? On the flipside, how long do you give a guy before you finally decide, this is enough, lets go in a new direction? I'm not gonna disagree that management's handling of Corey has been pretty bad, but at some point, he has got to start taking responsibility himself as well for his porous play. The options for 06 were to either Non-tender him, deal him for nothing, or have a very expensive bench player who isn't going to get any better on the bench.

 

Hendry was between a rock and a hard place here. Now if I hear we're paying some of his salary for next season, I'll be miffed.

[JC]

 

When would you have moved Sosa? After the 2003 season?

 

I wouldn't have been looking to move him in the first place. Paying $16M for him to play elsewhere was silly to me. If I had to move him, I sure as hell wouldn't have devalued him the way the Cubs systematically did.

 

The only thing we know is that last year's formula didn't work to get the Cubs in the playoffs. So, I don't want to hear that Sosa would have made the season any worse.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

If I were an O's fan I'd be pretty mad about this deal right now...

[JeffH]

...why not wait until his value inevitably rises?

 

It's inevitable?

[Tim]

If I were an O's fan I'd be pretty mad about this deal right now...

Neither prospect we received is likely to be more than a backup or a bottom of the bullpen guy. What have they to be disappointed about? At this point, what were their other OF choices to go after?

[CUBZ99]

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

 

If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million.

 

So you would rather have a career sub .298 OBP guy in CF than a career .350+ OBP guy? It may be possible that you over value Patterson.

[Blueheart05]

If I were an O's fan I'd be pretty mad about this deal right now...

 

 

FWIW, there are a number of disgruntled O's fans posting on the Baltimore Sun's website.

[JC]

I haven't read the 8 pages of this thread. I just want to exress my disappointment in the Cubs once again settling on making a deal with no leverage whatsoever. There is just no sense in the manner in which this management team negotiates' date=' evaluates or makes transactions in general.[/quote']

 

Leverage, what leverage? As Bruce Miles stated on this forum just a few days ago Corey was not a hot name at all throughout the baseball world.

 

Well, you've made the point for me. He had no leverage. At all. Thus, it makes more sense to gamble into creating some leverage through 1) better play at the ML level; 2) better play at AAA; or 3) need created though injury in ST or the first part of the season.

 

Negotiating is all about leverage. Trading players without any is just stupid when you know a player has talent (e.g. Corey). If it were some clown like Macias, when you are unlikely to get anything more than you've seen over his stay with the Cubs, then the likelihood of gaining leverage is low if not non-existent. But, that isn't the case with Corey.

 

It is bad negotiating, pure and simple.

 

It is always easier to make comments like this after the fact.

 

Why, pray tell, is that the case? I have been anticipating this lackluster move (as have many) since October. Hendry moved Sammy at his lowest value (and, in fact, contributed to lowering his value). Hendry is more interested in a clean clubhouse rather than addressing messes that he had his hand in manufacturing.

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

When should we have moved Corey then?

 

Didn't I already address this?

 

Hendry was between a rock and a hard place here. Now if I hear we're paying some of his salary for next season, I'll be miffed.

 

No, he wasn't. He made a poor trade because he is shortsighted.

[CheeseHead Cubs Fan]

It is popular belief that transactions are "gambles" ... yet we give no credit to Jim Hendry for taking a player who downright stunk last year. Who was demoted to AAA and never has found his swing since the knee injury.

 

Patterson’s value is truly at the lowest point possible, or is it? Say he comes out in ST and struggles to find his swing. Looks lost and begins the year at AAA or worse, buried as a bench player only played to eat innings or pinch run. Then what "leverage" does Hendry have...??? Corey has just proven again to the whole baseball world that his stock indeed sunk further, possibly forcing Hendry to designate him for assignment.

 

In my opinion, you "gamble" get a couple of prospects and have the potential of creating something out of nothing.

[CUBZ99]

If I were an O's fan I'd be pretty mad about this deal right now...

Neither prospect we received is likely to be more than a backup or a bottom of the bullpen guy. What have they to be disappointed about? At this point, what were their other OF choices to go after?

 

The prospect of having to watch him play everyday? :lol:

[CardsFanInChiTown]

If I were an O's fan I'd be pretty mad about this deal right now...

Neither prospect we received is likely to be more than a backup or a bottom of the bullpen guy. What have they to be disappointed about? At this point, what were their other OF choices to go after?

 

They gave up some servicable prospects for a 3m player who put up .215/.254/.348 last year and is .252/.293/.414 for his career. Surely they could put that money and talent to better use.

[JC]

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

 

If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million.

 

So you would rather have a career sub .298 OBP guy in CF than a career .350+ OBP guy? It may be possible that you over value Patterson.

 

Yeah, that is exactly my point.

 

Are you trying to oversimplify (thereby mischaracterize) my arguments? They are plain to see, but you pick and choose the portions that support your argument, seemingly just to be obstinant.

[USSoccer]

But the point is this: Why not wait until ST, and then, at worst, you can make this same trade then? If an injury happens or Corey's performance turns around, then maybe you can get more for him than a "maybe" and a filler lefty.

 

I understand moving him, and knew it would happen. I even called it happening like this, but that doesn't mean I think Hendry couldn't have played his cards better than he did. You can't keep selling low like he does.

 

I think you are way overstating the market for CPatt. He's a 3m player who put up a .215/.254/.348 last year and is .252/.293/.414 for his career. How do you know the market for him wouldn't have dried up once ST rolled around? It was time for Corey to move on with his life. I think the fact that Hendry got anything for him is a testament to his trading skills.

 

You don't know if the market dries up, but even if it does, what did you lose? A "maybe" IF prospect that will be lucky to be a utility IF in the bigs, and yet another lefty hard thrower with erratic command?

 

I'll take the chance that Corey shows enough to tempt a desperate GM into taking a gamble. It's risk/reward. It's low risk waiting, because it's not like we would lose out on anything notable. He's also what, 26? That's still real young.

[Mark_R]

How long do we have to give Corey to "raise" his trade value then?

 

If we don't have upgrade the OF, then people complain (and rightfully so) that adjustments weren't made to better the miserable oh five team. I don't see the improvements coming while he's in Chicago, so he's a semi expensive unproductive everyday player, or he's an expensive bench player who can't raise his value anyway. And if Corey has a bad April and the fans are just riding his ass, what do you do?

[USSoccer]

How long do we have to give Corey to "raise" his trade value then?

 

If we don't have upgrade the OF, then people complain (and rightfully so) that adjustments weren't made to better the miserable oh five team. I don't see the improvements coming while he's in Chicago, so he's a semi expensive unproductive everyday player, or he's an expensive bench player who can't raise his value anyway. And if Corey has a bad April and the fans are just riding his ass, what do you do?

 

There's no upgrade to the OF coming. I'm not so much worried about that anymore. It is what it is. And if there's no interest in him during ST, then cut him loose for the best available deal, or option him to AAA, or DFA him.

 

But again, if the worst case is we lose out on part of his salary and the 2 prospects we got, I'll gamble that anytime.

[Tim]

It is popular belief that transactions are "gambles" ... yet we give no credit to Jim Hendry for taking a player who downright stunk last year. Who was demoted to AAA and never has found his swing since the knee injury.

 

Patterson’s value is truly at the lowest point possible, or is it? Say he comes out in ST and struggles to find his swing. Looks lost and begins the year at AAA or worse, buried as a bench player only played to eat innings or pinch run. Then what "leverage" does Hendry have...??? Corey has just proven again to the whole baseball world that his stock indeed sunk further, possibly forcing Hendry to designate him for assignment.

 

In my opinion, you "gamble" get a couple of prospects and have the potential of creating something out of nothing.

I thought it was great when Hendry targeted Jody Gerut in a trade (though I hated giving up on Dubois so quickly). :D

 

Then I hated it when he traded Gerut away so quickly. :(

[CardsFanInChiTown]

But the point is this: Why not wait until ST, and then, at worst, you can make this same trade then? If an injury happens or Corey's performance turns around, then maybe you can get more for him than a "maybe" and a filler lefty.

 

I understand moving him, and knew it would happen. I even called it happening like this, but that doesn't mean I think Hendry couldn't have played his cards better than he did. You can't keep selling low like he does.

 

I think you are way overstating the market for CPatt. He's a 3m player who put up a .215/.254/.348 last year and is .252/.293/.414 for his career. How do you know the market for him wouldn't have dried up once ST rolled around? It was time for Corey to move on with his life. I think the fact that Hendry got anything for him is a testament to his trading skills.

 

You don't know if the market dries up, but even if it does, what did you lose? A "maybe" IF prospect that will be lucky to be a utility IF in the bigs, and yet another lefty hard thrower with erratic command?

 

I'll take the chance that Corey shows enough to tempt a desperate GM into taking a gamble. It's risk/reward. It's low risk waiting, because it's not like we would lose out on anything notable. He's also what, 26? That's still real young.

 

I suppose he could have gotten more, but I highly doubt it. It's time for Corey to move on with his life. 26 isn't really that young for a position player, he should in\near his prime.

Edited January 10, 2006 by CardsFanInChiTown

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How long do we have to give Corey to "raise" his trade value then?

 

If we don't have upgrade the OF, then people complain (and rightfully so) that adjustments weren't made to better the miserable oh five team. I don't see the improvements coming while he's in Chicago, so he's a semi expensive unproductive everyday player, or he's an expensive bench player who can't raise his value anyway. And if Corey has a bad April and the fans are just riding his ass, what do you do?

 

Let him be a backup OF. He's security if Pierre gets hurt, then if he gets hot you can spin him at the deadline. Like USS brought up, we hardly got anything for him, so it's not a huge deal if that deal isn't there next offseason, and there's a decent likelihood it will be.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

How long do we have to give Corey to "raise" his trade value then?

 

If we don't have upgrade the OF, then people complain (and rightfully so) that adjustments weren't made to better the miserable oh five team. I don't see the improvements coming while he's in Chicago, so he's a semi expensive unproductive everyday player, or he's an expensive bench player who can't raise his value anyway. And if Corey has a bad April and the fans are just riding his ass, what do you do?

 

Let him be a backup OF. He's security if Pierre gets hurt, then if he gets hot you can spin him at the deadline. Like USS brought up, we hardly got anything for him, so it's not a huge deal if that deal isn't there next offseason, and there's a decent likelihood it will be.

 

Keeping Corey would have been an inhuman, not to mention a media fiasco.

[Bgbird68]

I think I'm more upset about the Cubs organization completely missing on their evaluation of Corey. Wasn't he another untouchable "five-tool player"? Their development, or lack thereof, of position players is scary.

 

I'm happy the Cubs got anything for Patterson. And if he succeeds in Baltimore, more power to him, cause it sure wasn't going to happen with the Cubs.

[CUBZ99]

 

Don't try to diminish my point by making me appear as if I am only preying on hindsight. It doesn't take a clariavoyant or baseball executive to derive the opinion that this was a trade in which Hendry would be hard pressed to get less value at a later date. I am 100% certain that Hendry at some level decided to move Patterson prior to the Convention so as not to repeat the 05 Sosa debacle. His moves regularly have a tinge of panic to them as of late.

 

It is possible that Hendry would have gotten zero in return for Patterson. Corey has shown absolutely nothing as major leaguer and it is doubtful that he ever would as a Cub. It is difficult to see why you would get so excited over losing a guy with worse career numbers than Neifi Perez.

 

If that is sincerely your opinion, we have nothing to talk about. Transactions are about gambles. I think its a far better gamble to hold on to Patterson (as I set forth clearly earlier wherein I suggested he start the season in center rather than trade for Pierre) rather than unload him for non-factor players who Hendry will likely clog the roster with and save a couple of million.

 

So you would rather have a career sub .298 OBP guy in CF than a career .350+ OBP guy? It may be possible that you over value Patterson.

 

Yeah, that is exactly my point.

 

Are you trying to oversimplify (thereby mischaracterize) my arguments? They are plain to see, but you pick and choose the portions that support your argument, seemingly just to be obstinant.

 

I think the word you were trying to say was "obstinate" and you have still competely failed to back up your contention that Patterson would have somehow gotten better over night, or after 6 seasons in the Major Leagues would have improved his trade value. You seem to be unwilling to deal with the facts or the reality of the situation. Sure Patterson could have a career year next year, but judging by his past performance, it was not likely to happen.