Changing the Culture of Baseball in Chicago

[FergieJ31]

I think it would take quite a bit of sustained success to overcome the Cubs' advantages with respect to ballpark, TV rights, and previous popularity. I don't see the White Sox as currently constructed having that success.

 

I agree, but it can be done. Did you know the Sox outdrew the Cubs thru the 1950-1970 and was pretty close attendence wise until this decade? TV was a big hurdle but WGN carries Sox games now. Chicago was more of a Sox town before and it can be that again.

 

The Sox did outdraw the Cubs in the 50's / 60's and as recently as 1992. Taken out of context one might conclude the Sox were the more popular Chicago team at these times. In addition to the excellent points made by Voice of Reason, a few more reasons why the Sox drew at these times: (1) night games (2) the novelty of the new CF scoreboard (installed in 1950) (3) fireworks (installed in 1960) and (4) US Cellular (opened in 1991).

 

As soon as these novelties and gimmicks wore off, the better place to watch baseball in Chicago rose to the top again. History shows it doesn't take more than a few years, maybe 3-4, for novelties to wear off.

 

Meanwhile, especially in recent years, Wrigley is one of the few ballparks that has excess demand for most games. If Wrigley held 60,000 it'd still easily sell out for some of the Cubs-Cards and Cubs-Sox series in 04 (then again, Wrigley wouldn't be Wrigley if it held 60k).

 

I fully expect Sox attendence to mean revert to the 1.5M-1.6M range as the novelty of winning the WS dies down, unless they put a perennial playoff contending team together. If that happens and the Cubs continue to flounder in 3rd or 4th, out of playoff contention by September, I think we'll see the Sox outdraw the Cubs within 4 years. Even if that happens it will not make the Sox "Chicago's baseball team" for the simple reason that casual fans will pay up to go watch a winning team, but true baseball fans enjoy the sport for deeper reasons. And there are many more casual fans in any city than true fans.

 

I estimate (based on nothing but a hunch) that Cub fans outnumber Sox fans nationwide by a factor of 5-1 or more. True Sox fans are zealots for their team -- like Blackhawks fans -- there just aren't a lot of them.

 

And by the way, we're seeing good old-fashioned bandwagoners walking around town in Sox hats and t-shirts. I don't care how many people are wearing Sox gear -- it's irrelevant to the question Serena posed. How many people do you see walking around town in Bulls gear these days?

[SouthSideRyan]

That said, in the Suburbs, a lot of kids wearing Cubs hats last year are wearing Sox hats this year. A sustained run by the Sox will make a dent into the Cubs fans base.

 

And as I tell my Sox fan friends, "They're your problem now. I don't have to deal with them anymore."

[Andy]

The Sox even got hosed on the SI cover.

The Sox were not hosed. They put Podsednik on the cover the previous week and the series ended the night most people got that issue. The same thing happened to the Pistons when they beat the Lakers in 2004: SI put them on the cover when they went up 3-1, the series ended right after that, and SI did not put them on the next week's cover. It's called avoiding overkill.

[J.R.]

Those SOBs need to realize that it's a lost cause.

 

The Sox may establish a winning tradition, they may build a bigger season ticket base, they may sell a ton of fugly hats - but they'll never generate a nationwide fan base on the level of that enjoyed by the Cubs.

 

"Cubdom" is the result of a confluence of factors - a beautiful ballpark, storied history, beloved announcers, charasmatic ballplayers, landmark postseasons and national reach - that never happened before, and may never be seen again.

 

There is very little interest in the Sox outside of Chicagoland, a fact that has allowed me to happily pretend that the WS never happened. The national media hasn't jumped on the South Side bandwagon because there are about 500 other sports entities to talk about which garner more interest.

 

All this talk of "changing the baseball culture" is a bunch of bull. The Sox should concentrate on winning and making their fans happy, but as is usual, the bastards just can't get over the Cubs.

[South Side]

I've spent a lot of time at both ballparks over the years, although admittedly lots more at USCF (and old Comiskey before that). But, I still hit around 10 Cubs games a year, so I think I have a little feel for the fan bases and the crowds that surround me.

 

Wrigley Field's attendance can be broken down into three components-die hard Cub fans, tourists/Out of towners, and trendies. And I think the split is currently 1/3 of each.

 

Because of over two decades of national exposure on WGN and the fact that Wrigley is one of the only classic ballparks still in use, Chicago tourists will still flock to Wrigley. And never underestimate just how many people at each game are really in the category (including business travelers, conventioneers, vacationers, transplanted Chicagoans). The brokers get rich off these people. This fan base will never switch, but it is a national, not Chicago fan base. The White Sox would have to get "Yankee-like" to ever have a chance of taking a dent in this group.

 

The "trendies" have already begun the switch, annoying the hell out of die hard Sox fans. While lots of Cub fans like to brag about their annual attendance title, the truth is that die hard Sox fans never wanted Chad and Muffy at USCF, nor the associated hassles with ticket brokers, obnoxious fans blocking the game, etc. However, lots of these fans have discovered that USCF is really not all that bad- easier to get to, better food, more comfortable, enjoy tailgating as much as bar hopping, and, most importantly, they can get drunk there too! The casual fans may be converted to whichever team they can get tickets to, instead of just hanging at Wrigley.

 

Finally the die hards, obviously the group involved in this board, will never switch. The White Sox have the same group, the 9 or 10,000 that was at USCF in the late 90's or 2002-3-4, but never had support from tourists and trendies that the Cubs have held for years.

 

BTW, you'll never be able to measure the "Chicago popularity" of the two teams by attendance. When the Cubs dump tickets on ticket brokers, including the one they own themselves, it counts as a "ticket sold" regardless of whether or not a fan ever buys the tickets. I've been to plenty of "sold out" Cubs games (particularly in Sept) when brokers had hundreds of unsold tickets before game time they were getting rid of for a couple of dollars, and sections virtually empty during the game. While the White Sox don't pander to ticket brokers in the same manner, they do discount heavily on certain dates. You can't compare the two, they choose to play the game differently.

[J.R.]

I must say I agree with your assessment. Nice work.

 

I would, however, add a fourth and fifth group - the regional crowd and the out-of-town diehards.

 

IMHO, the Cubs' local base extends deep into Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Nebraska, much like Cincinnati's (less potent but historically strong) ties into Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia. I think there are many people in those areas whose ties to the club are just as strong as those seen in Chicago proper. I'd use the Cubs' radio network map as a loose definition of the "regional" crowd.

 

There are also many Cub diehards throughout the country who travel to Wrigley and road parks with the express purpose of seeing the Cubs. These people are not random tourists or conventioneers, they're deadly serious Cub fans.

[ManEatingTarp]

Hey folks, as a Cardinals fan living in Chicago take this for what it's worth.

 

Reasons the Cubs should feel safe as the #1 baseball team in town:

-Location. Being on the North side offers several things the Sox can't. Point blank, it's fun to go to Cub games.

-Media. The Cubs can influence the public because 2 of the major outlets here share ownership with the Cubs.

-Diehard Fans. It takes a lot to be a Cubs fan. People like my Dad will never root for another team.

Wrigley- It's a shrine.

 

 

Reasons the Cubs should feel threatened:

Product on the field. Despite a 100 million dollar payroll, the continue to be a middle of the pack team. The casual fan will tire of this. The Sox are building to win and win for several years.

Region. The Sox aren't the only team around Chicago. The Brewers are on the upswing too. Fans that are between the two towns may start choosing to go north.

Race. The Sox are VERY popular with the Latino population of Chicago. You may roll your eyes, but Chicago's latino population is HUGE.

Cable/Sat TV and the Internet. 20 years ago millions of people became Cub fans because of the national reach of WGN. Much like the Cards and KMOX. With the internet and the ability to watch pretty much any team you want on TV it's easy to pick whatever team you want.

 

I'm not railing on the Cubs, I just believe that for the casual fan it may be easier to root for other teams.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I must say I agree with your assessment. Nice work.

 

I would, however, add a fourth and fifth group - the regional crowd and the out-of-town diehards.

 

IMHO, the Cubs' local base extends deep into Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Nebraska, much like Cincinnati's (less potent but historically strong) ties into Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia. I think there are many people in those areas whose ties to the club are just as strong as those seen in Chicago proper. I'd use the Cubs' radio network map as a loose definition of the "regional" crowd.

 

There are also many Cub diehards throughout the country who travel to Wrigley and road parks with the express purpose of seeing the Cubs. These people are not random tourists or conventioneers, they're deadly serious Cub fans.

 

Most became Cubs fans because of WGN which the Sox are on now.

 

 

Yeah, I know it's trendy to like the Sox right now however some of those bandwangon fans will become hardcore fans. I doubt Chicago will ever become a Sox town however it's possible.

[J.R.]

Most became Cubs fans because of WGN which the Sox are on now.

 

The Cubs have a commanding lead when it comes to games televised nationally on WGN, and, as ManEatingTarp said, the benefits of being on WGN have been blunted by near-universal access to all teams. The Sox really needed to have been on there 30 years ago if they were to set up any kind of lasting connect to distant lands.

 

In any case, I don't think the Sox product as currently set up is the kind of thing that would reach out to faraway fans. The stars aren't all that "starry," and the broadcasts themselves are pretty freaking annoying.

[sandberg23]

In any case, I don't think the Sox product as currently set up is the kind of thing that would reach out to faraway fans. The stars aren't all that "starry," and the broadcasts themselves are pretty freaking annoying.

 

Amen. =D>

[Derwood]

While I won't argue against the lopsidedness of the Cubs appeal nationally and locally, I refuse to use game attendance as a determining factor in the comparison. Sadly, many games at Wrigley have no more "fans" attending than at USCF....but the park is filled by casual-bordering-on-not-at-all fans who are there to be there

[1908]

Sadly, many games at Wrigley have no more "fans" attending than at USCF....but the park is filled by casual-bordering-on-not-at-all fans who are there to be there

I've attended 40+ games a season since the 2000 season and the only place in the park where I've gotten this feeling is the CF bleachers. I have no idea how you'd even measure a person's "fan-ness", but Wrigley crowds are almost always loud and they react to the game. I think you're perpetuating a tired and inaccurate stereotype.

[Burtonbell]

Sadly, many games at Wrigley have no more "fans" attending than at USCF....but the park is filled by casual-bordering-on-not-at-all fans who are there to be there

I've attended 40+ games a season since the 2000 season and the only place in the park where I've gotten this feeling is the CF bleachers. I have no idea how you'd even measure a person's "fan-ness", but Wrigley crowds are almost always loud and they react to the game. I think you're perpetuating a tired and inaccurate stereotype.

 

I have to agree with 1908 on this one. As someone who averages 20 plus home games a year for the past 5 years, plus 4-5 road games a year (St Louis, Milwaukee, Cincy, etc.) I have to say the fan base is strong everywhere I go. I even went to Fenway to see a Red Sox/D-Rays game in 04 and I wasnt the only one wearing Cubs gear.

I think the trendy fans are plentiful, but I ignore them. Its easy when I am talking with serious fans all around me who knew that Leon Durham pulled a Buckner, we traded for Sandberg, Ty Griffin was our Frank Thomas, and so on. Those fans are in the majority, no matter where I sit; and I have sat everywhere. Box seats, bleachers, upper deck, skybox, bullpen, behind the pole, under the scoredboard, etc.

I can honestly say that the only place where "un-intelligent" conversation takes place is on the rooftops.

[bc2k]

I must say I agree with your assessment. Nice work.

 

I would, however, add a fourth and fifth group - the regional crowd and the out-of-town diehards.

 

IMHO, the Cubs' local base extends deep into Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Nebraska, much like Cincinnati's (less potent but historically strong) ties into Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia. I think there are many people in those areas whose ties to the club are just as strong as those seen in Chicago proper. I'd use the Cubs' radio network map as a loose definition of the "regional" crowd.

 

There are also many Cub diehards throughout the country who travel to Wrigley and road parks with the express purpose of seeing the Cubs. These people are not random tourists or conventioneers, they're deadly serious Cub fans.

 

Most became Cubs fans because of WGN which the Sox are on now.

 

I didn't know the Sox are shown on so many WGN games, but I'd like to point out that some/many/all? Sox WGN games are not nationally televised.

 

While visiting friends around rural Illinois, I noticed that more than one Sox WGN game wasn't broadcasted on WGN outside of the Chicagoland area.

 

Therefore, the Sox can't grow that national fanbase that the Cubs have earned from nationally televised WGN games. Also, day baseball played a part in winning over national fans, something else the Sox cannot offer.

[stitchface]

I must say I agree with your assessment. Nice work.

 

I would, however, add a fourth and fifth group - the regional crowd and the out-of-town diehards.

 

IMHO, the Cubs' local base extends deep into Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Nebraska, much like Cincinnati's (less potent but historically strong) ties into Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia. I think there are many people in those areas whose ties to the club are just as strong as those seen in Chicago proper. I'd use the Cubs' radio network map as a loose definition of the "regional" crowd.

 

There are also many Cub diehards throughout the country who travel to Wrigley and road parks with the express purpose of seeing the Cubs. These people are not random tourists or conventioneers, they're deadly serious Cub fans.

 

Most became Cubs fans because of WGN which the Sox are on now.

 

 

Yeah, I know it's trendy to like the Sox right now however some of those bandwangon fans will become hardcore fans. I doubt Chicago will ever become a Sox town however it's possible.

 

WGN now doesn't have nearly the pull it did 20 years ago though when the cubs and braves were your only options. I don't think the limited sox games on WGN will win over too many fans.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I must say I agree with your assessment. Nice work.

 

I would, however, add a fourth and fifth group - the regional crowd and the out-of-town diehards.

 

IMHO, the Cubs' local base extends deep into Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa and Nebraska, much like Cincinnati's (less potent but historically strong) ties into Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia. I think there are many people in those areas whose ties to the club are just as strong as those seen in Chicago proper. I'd use the Cubs' radio network map as a loose definition of the "regional" crowd.

 

There are also many Cub diehards throughout the country who travel to Wrigley and road parks with the express purpose of seeing the Cubs. These people are not random tourists or conventioneers, they're deadly serious Cub fans.

 

Most became Cubs fans because of WGN which the Sox are on now.

 

I didn't know the Sox are shown on so many WGN games, but I'd like to point out that some/many/all? Sox WGN games are not nationally televised.

 

While visiting friends around rural Illinois, I noticed that more than one Sox WGN game wasn't broadcasted on WGN outside of the Chicagoland area.

 

Therefore, the Sox can't grow that national fanbase that the Cubs have earned from nationally televised WGN games. Also, day baseball played a part in winning over national fans, something else the Sox cannot offer.

 

 

Hm, I thought the games were shown nationally.

 

I don't understand the day baseball comment. Lee Elia certainly had a low opinion of day baseball fans. :lol: