Big Ten Basketball

[illiniguy]

Am I losing my mind? Does anyone else see that this thread is not making sense?

 

no, welcome to the club.

 

i think the gist of what this thread has become is: illinois is underrated, perrenially.

I think all that needs to mentioned is in the last 5 years we have won the second most games in all of basketball. Not UNC, KU, Kentucky, MSU, Louisville, Syracuse, WF, Maryland, Gonzaga, etc. Yet we almost get treated as an also ran at every corner. I love how Duke's young players are talented, yet ours are unproven. Mostly because of a ranking some guy, who wasn't good enough at evaluating talent to be a coach somewhere, said so. The lack or respect is a joke, hell even last year when we were having a dream season everyone was trying to say it was because of the big ten being down, or that even though we were undefeated UNC should be the number 1. Even though UNC did end up winning the lack of respect was ridiculous. If Duke or one of the other "elite" 5 would have been doing that last year we would have had them being compared to the all time great teams. But, hey whatever, I think Bruce and our guys use the us against the world as motivation and it seems to be working.

[illiniguy]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

So why was Duke selected as preseason number one? They return a guard who has less talent than Dee Brown, and a center who has more than James Augustine. Demarcus Nelson is pretty much Brian Randle, a talent that really hasn't done much yet at all. Paulus and McRoberts were highly touted, but so was Shavlik Randolph, I think we all know how that turned out. Before the year how did they know what these guys would be? Thank god in college basketball the rankings don't mean a thinkg as we have a true champion.

Edited January 3, 2006 by illiniguy

[illiniguy]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

no not now, we beat them. :P

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

So why was Duke selected as preseason number one. They return a guard who has less talent than Dee Brown, and a center who has more than James Augustine. Demarcus Nelson is pretty much Brian Randle. Paulus and McRoberts were highly touted, but so was Shavlik. Before the year how did they know what these guys would be?

 

Who said Duke deserved to be number 1? But if you have to compare them to U of I, Redick is much better than Brown, and Williams is much better than Augustine. Their recruits are ranked higher than U of I, and most importantly, they are DUKE, who the media loves to pump up at every opportunity. And don't use that as an opportunity to use that as a platform to claim Illinois is underappreciated, because then that claim is made about every team in America.

[snoodmonger]

Can we split this into an official UI whining thread?

[soapy]

Am I losing my mind? Does anyone else see that this thread is not making sense?

 

You are not alone. This thread also seems bizarre to me but I'm not going "stick up" for IU in this thread because that would be "disrepecting" the Illini.

[Magnetic Curses]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

 

UNC didn't return the ACC POY, nor did may choose to come back. if felton and may decided to come back, they'd be the concensus pick to repeat.

 

i'm not exactly trying to compare the abilities of augustine and may, but you get the point.

[Magnetic Curses]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

So why was Duke selected as preseason number one. They return a guard who has less talent than Dee Brown, and a center who has more than James Augustine. Demarcus Nelson is pretty much Brian Randle. Paulus and McRoberts were highly touted, but so was Shavlik. Before the year how did they know what these guys would be?

 

Who said Duke deserved to be number 1? But if you have to compare them to U of I, Redick is much better than Brown, and Williams is much better than Augustine. Their recruits are ranked higher than U of I, and most importantly, they are DUKE, who the media loves to pump up at every opportunity. And don't use that as an opportunity to use that as a platform to claim Illinois is underappreciated, because then that claim is made about every team in America.

 

well, as far as proving my point is concerned: you certainly never pass up a chance to take a shot at an illini player.

 

dee's not the shooter that redick is, no doubt. but in addition to winning the POY, dee was B10 DPOY as well. unless you want to consider defense as not being half of the game.

 

i don't think many would compare the low-post abilities of williams and augustine, but augustine is the better perimeter player, runs the court better, and, as bilas pointed out, may be the best screen player in the country. williams may have the edge defensively, but augustine is no slouch, either. there IS most definitely a comparison there.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yes, they bring back Brown and Augustine, but don't forget they also lost some key guys (Williams, Head, Powell). Again, why do you care so much what Clark Kellog's opinion is? He didn't bash Illinois.

 

i would argue that not picking them #1 until they prove that they aren't is a knock on them.

 

one can't some out and say "illinois isn't good". that would be lunacy. what they say is "illinois is going to finsih third and they're going to have to like it."

 

as i've said, illinois has turned over their team a couple of times without finishing lower than second.

 

So, should UNC be #1 this year? By that logic it would seem they would be. They lost players as did U of I. It's not the same team that won it last year, that's why they aren't picked to win.

So why was Duke selected as preseason number one. They return a guard who has less talent than Dee Brown, and a center who has more than James Augustine. Demarcus Nelson is pretty much Brian Randle. Paulus and McRoberts were highly touted, but so was Shavlik. Before the year how did they know what these guys would be?

 

Who said Duke deserved to be number 1? But if you have to compare them to U of I, Redick is much better than Brown, and Williams is much better than Augustine. Their recruits are ranked higher than U of I, and most importantly, they are DUKE, who the media loves to pump up at every opportunity. And don't use that as an opportunity to use that as a platform to claim Illinois is underappreciated, because then that claim is made about every team in America.

 

well, as far as proving my point is concerned: you certainly never pass up a chance to take a shot at an illini player.

 

dee's not the shooter that redick is, no doubt. but in addition to winning the POY, dee was B10 DPOY as well. unless you want to consider defense as not being half of the game.

 

i don't think many would compare the low-post abilities of williams and augustine, but augustine is the better perimeter player, runs the court better, and, as bilas pointed out, may be the best screen player in the country. williams may have the edge defensively, but augustine is no slouch, either. there IS most definitely a comparison there.

 

He's the one that started the ridiculous comparisons, and I hardly see what I said as "taking a shot". If claiming Brown isn't as good as (arguably) the best player in the country, and that Augustine isn't as good as one of the best inside presences around, then I guess I'm taking a pot shot at them. And yes, Brown is a better defender, but not so much more that he's on the same plane as Redick. Williams is better than Augustine, and (BIAS ALERT)Augustine sets some of the most laughably illegal screens in the country.

 

I'll ask it again, is it possible to discuss B10 basketball without having several Illini fans jump off the deep end with an inferiority complex?

[Magnetic Curses]

He's the one that started the ridiculous comparisons, and I hardly see what I said as "taking a shot". If claiming Brown isn't as good as (arguably) the best player in the country, and that Augustine isn't as good as one of the best inside presences around, then I guess I'm taking a pot shot at them. And yes, Brown is a better defender, but not so much more that he's on the same plane as Redick. Williams is better than Augustine, and (BIAS ALERT)Augustine sets some of the most laughably illegal screens in the country.

 

I'll ask it again, is it possible to discuss B10 basketball without having several Illini fans jump off the deep end with an inferiority complex?

 

if you want me to stop, simply quit proving my point. with every word you write, it becomes more and more evident that you simply can't stand looking up at illinois in the standings.

 

1. redick is nowhere near the best player in the country, unless, by player, you mean best outside shooter--i wouldn't dispute that. he scores, but not much else, can't defend, can't pass, and can't run. his a/to ratio is significantly worse than dee's, anyone who drafts him is drafting a nice little steve kerr in the first round. watching him play in the NBA will be something to behold. your boy ager is a much better player than redick--but ager isn't the returning B10 POY, is he?

 

2. so augustine sets "laughably illegal screens", does he? so what? the best players in the country cheat-jj "the chosen one" redick is the biggest criminal in the nation in terms of pushing off. shelden williams routinely travels when he gets the ball. if you can get away with it, why not? he must be very adept in disguising his cheating, which is the mark of a great player. i'm not sure of your point on this one.

 

so, we've decided that: redick is a great shooter, but otherwise can't run, pass, or defend in the league of dee brown, but not many in the country can, that's a fact; and augustine is a cheater, but gets away with it.

 

i'm not sure why you keep bringing up redick, has this turned into a "my dad can't beat up your dad, but i know this guy down the street who can" argument?

[fibro]

Clark Kellog:

The Illini have gotten excellent leadership and production from seniors James Augustine and Dee Brown. Augustine is playing with confidence and poise while averaging close to a double-double. Brown's speed and timely scoring keep opponents worried. Brian Randle is a solid and versatile defender and Jamar Smith anchors a productive bench.

 

Illinois is a very good defensive team that does a good job rebounding, too. It is second to Iowa in field-goal defense and No. 1 in three-point defense. It leads the Big Ten in rebounding margin and offensive rebounds. Offensively, the Illini present a balanced attack with eight players averaging between five and 15 points per game – and they take good care of the ball.

 

But it's on defense that the Illini really excel. They just don't allow teams to get a lot of good or easy shots, and because of this, Illinois has a chance to win the conference title. But to actually do that, the free-throw shooting must improve and Randle has to become the other double-figure scorer in the starting lineup.

Wish I could get disrespected like that.

[CuseCubFan69]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

[CuseCubFan69]

Clark Kellog:

The Illini have gotten excellent leadership and production from seniors James Augustine and Dee Brown. Augustine is playing with confidence and poise while averaging close to a double-double. Brown's speed and timely scoring keep opponents worried. Brian Randle is a solid and versatile defender and Jamar Smith anchors a productive bench.

 

Illinois is a very good defensive team that does a good job rebounding, too. It is second to Iowa in field-goal defense and No. 1 in three-point defense. It leads the Big Ten in rebounding margin and offensive rebounds. Offensively, the Illini present a balanced attack with eight players averaging between five and 15 points per game – and they take good care of the ball.

 

But it's on defense that the Illini really excel. They just don't allow teams to get a lot of good or easy shots, and because of this, Illinois has a chance to win the conference title. But to actually do that, the free-throw shooting must improve and Randle has to become the other double-figure scorer in the starting lineup.

Wish I could get disrespected like that.

 

I think Clark is a pretty good analyst.

[Magnetic Curses]

Clark Kellog:

The Illini have gotten excellent leadership and production from seniors James Augustine and Dee Brown. Augustine is playing with confidence and poise while averaging close to a double-double. Brown's speed and timely scoring keep opponents worried. Brian Randle is a solid and versatile defender and Jamar Smith anchors a productive bench.

 

Illinois is a very good defensive team that does a good job rebounding, too. It is second to Iowa in field-goal defense and No. 1 in three-point defense. It leads the Big Ten in rebounding margin and offensive rebounds. Offensively, the Illini present a balanced attack with eight players averaging between five and 15 points per game – and they take good care of the ball.

 

But it's on defense that the Illini really excel. They just don't allow teams to get a lot of good or easy shots, and because of this, Illinois has a chance to win the conference title. But to actually do that, the free-throw shooting must improve and Randle has to become the other double-figure scorer in the starting lineup.

Wish I could get disrespected like that.

 

as has been stated before, anything short of projecting the illini to finish first is a slap in the face.

 

saying that a "3rd place finish is admirable in this conference this season" is total BS. the illini haven't finished lower than second since 99-00. anything less than a conference championship is disappointing.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

He's the one that started the ridiculous comparisons, and I hardly see what I said as "taking a shot". If claiming Brown isn't as good as (arguably) the best player in the country, and that Augustine isn't as good as one of the best inside presences around, then I guess I'm taking a pot shot at them. And yes, Brown is a better defender, but not so much more that he's on the same plane as Redick. Williams is better than Augustine, and (BIAS ALERT)Augustine sets some of the most laughably illegal screens in the country.

 

I'll ask it again, is it possible to discuss B10 basketball without having several Illini fans jump off the deep end with an inferiority complex?

 

if you want me to stop, simply quit proving my point. with every word you write, it becomes more and more evident that you simply can't stand looking up at illinois in the standings.

 

1. redick is nowhere near the best player in the country, unless, by player, you mean best outside shooter--i wouldn't dispute that. he scores, but not much else, can't defend, can't pass, and can't run. his a/to ratio is significantly worse than dee's, anyone who drafts him is drafting a nice little steve kerr in the first round. watching him play in the NBA will be something to behold. your boy ager is a much better player than redick--but ager isn't the returning B10 POY, is he?

 

2. so augustine sets "laughably illegal screens", does he? so what? the best players in the country cheat-jj "the chosen one" redick is the biggest criminal in the nation in terms of pushing off. shelden williams routinely travels when he gets the ball. if you can get away with it, why not? he must be very adept in disguising his cheating, which is the mark of a great player. i'm not sure of your point on this one.

 

so, we've decided that: redick is a great shooter, but otherwise can't run, pass, or defend in the league of dee brown, but not many in the country can, that's a fact; and augustine is a cheater, but gets away with it.

 

i'm not sure why you keep bringing up redick, has this turned into a "my dad can't beat up your dad, but i know this guy down the street who can" argument?

 

You disputed the Duke comparisons, and I replied. That's "keep bringing up Redick"? I never said anything about Redick being a great pro, and I can't stand him so I'll just leave it at you're selling the rest of his game short. I also never said that no one else cheats, but your rationale behind Augustine being a great screener was independent of the rest of the comparisons. I really don't want to get into whether I think Ager is better than Redick or Brown, since I can guarantee it will get twisted into something entirely different. And why do you keep throwing around Brown as the returning B10 POY? Will you acknowledge he hasn't been near the player he was last year yet? I'm done with this discussion, but I can already see that my last comment is yet another attempt to bash Illinois at every opportunity, despite it being factual and provoked, and despite the fact that I, Raw, and other non-Illinois supporters have already said that Illinois is very good, may or probably will win the B10, etc.

[Magnetic Curses]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

 

they should, they have virtually every team in division I.

[fibro]

as has been stated before, anything short of projecting the illini to finish first is a slap in the face.

 

saying that a "3rd place finish is admirable in this conference this season" is total BS. the illini haven't finished lower than second since 99-00. anything less than a conference championship is disappointing.

So do you think U of I will finish worse then second ever again? Or so you believe that from now until the end of time the finish first or second in the Big Ten?

[Magnetic Curses]

And why do you keep throwing around Brown as the returning B10 POY? Will you acknowledge he hasn't been near the player he was last year yet?

 

he hasn't been shooting as well, but he's taking 3 more shots per game and is burdened with more of the load. he's also averaging more assists and rebounds while staying put defensively. he's the best player in the B10.

[Magnetic Curses]

as has been stated before, anything short of projecting the illini to finish first is a slap in the face.

 

saying that a "3rd place finish is admirable in this conference this season" is total BS. the illini haven't finished lower than second since 99-00. anything less than a conference championship is disappointing.

So do you think U of I will finish worse then second ever again? Or so you believe that from now until the end of time the finish first or second in the Big Ten?

 

nope, that's ridiculous, your attempts to frame this argument are faulty.

 

if illinois returned a few marginal players and tunred over their starting lineup, then go ahead and write them off.

[bukie]

Here's a Big Ten prediction that I fully support: http://bigtenwonk.blogspot.com/

 

No clear favorite, as any of 3 teams have a legitimate argument to being the best team in the conference this year.

 

And, as an Illini fan, anything lower than first or second might be disappointing after several years in a row of being at the top, but it's not altogether unprecedented. The first game they lose this year will be highly disappointing, especially if it's not at Michigan State or at Indiana.

[CuseCubFan69]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

 

they should, they have virtually every team in division I.

 

Hey a third and they are the old guard. The new guys are trying to sneak in there but the original ones are still the best! :D

 

And let me add that in football the BE only has 8 teams when most have 12.

[Magnetic Curses]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

 

they should, they have virtually every team in division I.

 

Hey a third and they are the old guard. The new guys are trying to sneak in there but the original ones are still the best! :D

 

And let me add that in football the BE only has 8 teams when most have 12.

 

just kiddin ya. :lol:

[CuseCubFan69]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

 

they should, they have virtually every team in division I.

 

Hey a third and they are the old guard. The new guys are trying to sneak in there but the original ones are still the best! :D

 

And let me add that in football the BE only has 8 teams when most have 12.

 

just kiddin ya. :lol:

 

Actually what percent is 16 of X amount of teams?

 

I think the Big 10 ought to be pretty interesting this year. I always like Michigan St but Illinois seems like they never lose. I would also be curious to see how good Indiana would be without Davis. Wisconsin is one of those teams you never want to play while Ohio St still hasn't lost yet and seems to get no respect. You kids ought to have a fun season. The Big 10 has a Conference Playoff Championship now, right?

[rawaction]

Speaking of looking up, what league has 2 of the top 3 teams? :scratch:

 

they should, they have virtually every team in division I.

 

Hey a third and they are the old guard. The new guys are trying to sneak in there but the original ones are still the best! :D

 

And let me add that in football the BE only has 8 teams when most have 12.

 

just kiddin ya. :lol:

 

Actually what percent is 16 of X amount of teams?

 

I think the Big 10 ought to be pretty interesting this year. I always like Michigan St but Illinois seems like they never lose. I would also be curious to see how good Indiana would be without Davis. Wisconsin is one of those teams you never want to play while Ohio St still hasn't lost yet and seems to get no respect. You kids ought to have a fun season. The Big 10 has a Conference Playoff Championship now, right?

 

Really sucks that Davis can't coach, because he's recruited well, at least out of state. He's angering me not getting the top IN recruits outside of Vaden and Ratliff. Oden should be a Hoosier.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Really sucks that Davis can't coach, because he's recruited well, at least out of state. He's angering me not getting the top IN recruits outside of Vaden and Ratliff. Oden should be a Hoosier.

 

You want Alford back? He can't coach or recruit. At least we have wrestling, I guess.