Is Prior's motion flawed?

[The Voice of Reason]

From Paul Ladewski and the Daily Southtown:

 

On Monday, the rumor got hotter yet. The latest version was a three-team deal that had Prior and pitcher Barry Zito headed to Crabtown, pitcher Erik Bedard bound for the Oakland A's and Miguel Tejada en route to the North Side.

 

If I'm the Cubs, I say, "Where do we sign?"

 

"Prior has what I call a 'loop' in his motion," said Marshall, who had a career 3.14 earned-run average even though he rarely reached 90 mph on the speed gun. "He brings his right hand up close to his ear. When his elbow starts forward, his hand goes back and flies laterally away from his body. That's an incredible amount of stress on the front of his shoulder."

 

As for Dusty Baker, his former Dodgers teammate, Marshall said, "Dusty openly admits that he knows nothing about pitching except how to hit it."

 

 

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/Acurrent/ladewski.htm

[E.J.]

From Paul Ladewski and the Daily Southtown:

 

On Monday, the rumor got hotter yet. The latest version was a three-team deal that had Prior and pitcher Barry Zito headed to Crabtown, pitcher Erik Bedard bound for the Oakland A's and Miguel Tejada en route to the North Side.

 

If I'm the Cubs, I say, "Where do we sign?"

 

 

So if that trade goes down our starting rotation would be:

 

Z, Maddux, Maybe Wood (if healthy), Williams, Rusch/Hill

 

That's awful. No way Hendry pulls off a deal without having another starting pitcher coming to the Cubs.

[wade]

So, that loop in Prior's delivery is what caused him to get hit by a linedrive?

[RynoRules]

As for Dusty Baker, his former Dodgers teammate, Marshall said, "Dusty openly admits that he knows nothing about pitching except how to hit it."

 

From the mouths of babes...

[UK1679666180]

I'll take the risk of Prior of getting injured. Of course...

 

"Dusty openly admits that he knows nothing about pitching except how to hit it."

 

He also knows nothing about a pitcher's fatigue level, like to when to pull when he's drained.

[wade]

I'll take the risk of Prior of getting injured. Of course...

 

"Dusty openly admits that he knows nothing about pitching except how to hit it."

 

He also knows nothing about a pitcher's fatigue level, like to when to pull when he's drained.

 

U.K., what do you think of Marshall's assesment of Prior's mechanics?

 

Didn't Will Carroll spotlight Prior as a pitcher with an ideal motion?

[ThePenguin11]

So, that loop in Prior's delivery is what caused him to get hit by a linedrive?

 

Prior was healthy for the rest of the season when his pitching was very mediocre. MLB is prehistoric sometimes when it comes to change. I read a lot about the numerous ways you can repair a pitchers arm without a scapel in Mike Lupica's book "Wild Pitch". Guys like Dr. James Andrews make a killing off of these surgeries because players never investigate other means of treatment.

 

(The book was a work of fiction however the treatments and techniques used in it were very much real.)

[UK1679666180]

It depends...

 

It could be a matter of short-arming the ball.

 

Or...

 

As long as his elbow stays above his shoulder in a "T" formation with his lead shoulder, as well as him having dynamic balance throughout it's fine. It could be natural for him to move the arm laterally away from his head to generate arm speed. You can't shot-put it out there w/any velocity.

[ThePenguin11]

"If I were him and had two huge talents like Prior and Kerry Wood, I would search high and low for answers. I would go to Tibet. I would go anywhere in the world to make sure that two talented young men didn't destroy their careers."

 

...God forbid the Cubs ever decided to be proactive rather than their usual reactive selves.

[UK1679666180]

FTR, I find Dr. Marshall's work fascinating, but it so extreme, I think it would be better off using a test model on an Indy League team rather than trying it with teams in the minors, or even worse a ML staff.

 

It is so far away from the norm, that there would need a test model.

[Tim]

FTR, I find Dr. Marshall's work fascinating, but it so extreme, I think it would be better off using a test model on an Indy League team rather than trying it with teams in the minors, or even worse a ML staff.

 

It is so far away from the norm, that there would need a test model.

Know anyone involved in the Indy leagues with an open mind about this kind of thing? ;)

[UK1679666180]

FTR, I find Dr. Marshall's work fascinating, but it so extreme, I think it would be better off using a test model on an Indy League team rather than trying it with teams in the minors, or even worse a ML staff.

 

It is so far away from the norm, that there would need a test model.

Know anyone involved in the Indy leagues with an open mind about this kind of thing? ;)

 

No, it would require two things. Money and a manager with a very open mind. Those things are rare in the Indy Leagues. :)

[jtownie]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

[UK1679666180]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

[jtownie]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

 

I've been meaning to read that. Is Will Carroll "blackballed" as much as Marshall is claimed to be? Not having either one hired, at the very least, as a consultant to a ML ballclub just seems shortsighted and somewhat arrogant. You'd think that trying to be proactive with a ballclubs players would actually cost a team less in the long-run due to medical expenses.

[Bull]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

 

I've been meaning to read that. Is Will Carroll "blackballed" as much as Marshall is claimed to be? Not having either one hired, at the very least, as a consultant to a ML ballclub just seems shortsighted and somewhat arrogant. You'd think that trying to be proactive with a ballclubs players would actually cost a team less in the long-run due to medical expenses.

 

As strong and revolutionary as their opinions are, I doubt they would work well as a "consultant" unless they were the types of consultants that have the power to come in and change everything top to bottom. Not gonna happen.

[jtownie]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

 

I've been meaning to read that. Is Will Carroll "blackballed" as much as Marshall is claimed to be? Not having either one hired, at the very least, as a consultant to a ML ballclub just seems shortsighted and somewhat arrogant. You'd think that trying to be proactive with a ballclubs players would actually cost a team less in the long-run due to medical expenses.

 

As strong and revolutionary as their opinions are, I doubt they would work well as a "consultant" unless they were the types of consultants that have the power to come in and change everything top to bottom. Not gonna happen.

 

I definitely think an owner who has radical ideas and will do whatever it takes to maximize the return on his/her investment while putting out a quality product. A guy like Cuban appears to me to be the type of owner that would come in and try to bring these types of experts in. But that's taking the discussion a bit off-topic.

 

Marshall and Carroll may not need to have the power to completely change everything, they just need an audience that respects and desires to apply whatever knowledge they can to the players. I don't know if any club has that type of personnel.

[UK1679666180]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

 

I've been meaning to read that. Is Will Carroll "blackballed" as much as Marshall is claimed to be? Not having either one hired, at the very least, as a consultant to a ML ballclub just seems shortsighted and somewhat arrogant. You'd think that trying to be proactive with a ballclubs players would actually cost a team less in the long-run due to medical expenses.

 

Will Carroll isn't MLB material in the same regards as someone like Marshall or Tom House.

 

Will Carroll, more or less, reports the findings rather than creating the model that provides the data he reports as he did in the book. He basically rec'd the findings from Marshall and to a larger extend House as well as various scientific studies in regards to physics and proper mechanics.

 

In short, I think there is a large degree of separation between Carroll and Marshall.

 

Marshall has been ignored by MLB b/c he's considered to be a pompus rectum and that's a bad thing b/c he does provide thoughtful questions towards pitching.

[jtownie]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Sure, Marshall contributed to Will Carroll's book "Saving the Pitcher".

 

I've been meaning to read that. Is Will Carroll "blackballed" as much as Marshall is claimed to be? Not having either one hired, at the very least, as a consultant to a ML ballclub just seems shortsighted and somewhat arrogant. You'd think that trying to be proactive with a ballclubs players would actually cost a team less in the long-run due to medical expenses.

 

Will Carroll isn't MLB material in the same regards as someone like Marshall or Tom House.

 

Will Carroll, more or less, reports the findings rather than creating the model that provides the data he reports as he did in the book. He basically rec'd the findings from Marshall and to a larger extend House as well as various scientific studies in regards to physics and proper mechanics.

 

In short, I think there is a large degree of separation between Carroll and Marshall.

 

Marshall has been ignored by MLB b/c he's considered to be a pompus rectum and that's a bad thing b/c he does provide thoughtful questions towards pitching.

 

so would Will Carroll be more of a Bill James' type to a club?

[UK1679666180]

Will Carroll is a writer for Baseball Prospectus so he's definitely towards that realm as well as writing "Saving the Pitcher". He's done a great job as far as researching various aspects within MLB w/BP as well as his blog. I've spoken to him on several occasions and he's good at what he does with regrads to research and presentation. If Marshall has the same presentation skills as Carroll, he would be taken more seriously.

[jtownie]

Will Carroll is a writer for Baseball Prospectus so he's definitely towards that realm as well as writing "Saving the Pitcher". He's done a great job as far as researching various aspects within MLB w/BP as well as his blog. I've spoken to him on several occasions and he's good at what he does with regrads to research and presentation. If Marshall has the same presentation skills as Carroll, he would be taken more seriously.

 

I have read some of his stuff on BP and read "Juiced." He does a fantastic job of taking stat-based results and putting them into an entertaining read. it's always been a question I had if he would be more of an analyst or "coach" if he were to hold a position on a MLB team.

 

I know he was working with a HS student to teach the gyro-ball so he has some "coaching" abilities. Doesn't he also hold a position at a university for sports medicine?

 

the work at BP and hearing about guys like Marshall just fascinates me and I just don't understand why more clubs wouldn't want to use this type of info.

[UK1679666180]

Tom House is very well respected by almost everyone in MLB, while Marshall's methods are way more extreme than House or anyone currently involved in MLB, his experience and work would be looked at more seriously.

 

Mike Marshall has advocated teaching 13 yo. his version of a screwball by taking the end of a FB and throwing it using various pressure points of the index finger, middle finger, and thumb.

 

Now, he's way more advanced than me in any of aspect of understanding pitching, but I would not advise a 13yo. to throw a screwball (or even a curve).

 

I think a better monitoring of pitcher's fatigue as well as improvements in bio-mechanics as well as "prehab" is the future of trying to reduce pitcher injuries.

[UK1679666180]

Doesn't he also hold a position at a university for sports medicine?

 

His father did.

[Magnetic Curses]

I'm not sure who it was that told me this, but i learned this here. It may have been Coach C or some other baseball coach that relayed this info to me.

 

a few years back the poster in question was coaching some wildly talented pitcher who could hit the low 90's with his fastball. i think the kid went to college and lost his control, or got hurt or something, but anyways, the poster in question said that the kid went to Marshall and adopted his technique. he saw the kid pitch after he'd changed his mechanics and said that the kid had lost all of what made him special, his windup and delivery looked very awkward and strange, he couldn't hit the 80's on the gun, and he was pretty much totally ineffective.

 

bottom line is: prior made it this far with his mechanics, with his velocity and stuff, he's been very successful, he's also had some freak injuries. now, do we really want prior to change his mechanics, velocity, and stuff, you know, the things that make him special, risking that marshall will make him into a human being?

 

marshll's processes may be good for turning average pitchers into above average, very durable pitchers, but i do not want dr. tom marshall anywhere near a guy like prior.

[Lefty]

I wonder if Marshall and Will Carroll have ever been introduced.

 

Yes they have.

 

I have talked to Will about it, and there is a lot of overlap between Marshall's approach and the "Tom House" school of thought. There is disagreement on elbow position, but it does not have to be a major point.

 

But as Will wrote in a recent article, while Marshall runs a school for amateur pitchers, where are they? House's disciples are all over the place, but where are Marshall's?