What the hell....Walker third on depth chart?!?!?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I honestly hope Walker absolutely RIPS into the Cubs publicly if he is traded. This is the most beyond-unexplainable maneuver that I've seen the Cubs make.

 

I'm approaching the point where, unless he is packaged in an extremely lopsided trade that puts us over the top, that I hope he goes somewhere in the NL and absolutely crushes us every time we face him.

[badger1679666666]

I honestly hope Walker absolutely RIPS into the Cubs publicly if he is traded. This is the most beyond-unexplainable maneuver that I've seen the Cubs make.

 

I'm approaching the point where, unless he is packaged in an extremely lopsided trade that puts us over the top, that I hope he goes somewhere in the NL and absolutely crushes us every time we face him.

 

And that Neifi 0-fers and has 5 errors in each game.

 

Actually I seriously hope Neifi tears an ACL in spring-training (and I've never wished ill upon people), but I know that won't happen because mostly only our good players get hurt. Our crappy ones stay healthy for ever.

[wade]

I honestly hope Walker absolutely RIPS into the Cubs publicly if he is traded. This is the most beyond-unexplainable maneuver that I've seen the Cubs make.

 

I'd say that wish would be granted!

[CubfaninCA]

I'm not buying that Hairston's ahead of Walker.

[CUBZ99]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

[illiniguy]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

um no you can probably name about 4

Chase Utley

Marcus Giles

Jeff Kent

Brian Roberts

[CUBZ99]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

 

Offensively or Defensively?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

 

Offensively or Defensively?

 

Total package.

[CUBZ99]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

 

Offensively or Defensively?

 

Total package.

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

[rocket]

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

 

Of course, if you take into account Walker's OBP PLUS his SLG (the main reason I like to keep him around), the list of 2nd basemen above Walker shrinks considerably. The following NL 2B had a higher OPS than Walker last season:

 

Chase Utley

Jeff Kent

 

That is all.

 

Walker also costs us only 2.5 million.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

 

Offensively or Defensively?

 

Total package.

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

 

The total package goes beyond OBP. Only 5 2B had an OPS higher than Walker, and only a couple following him were within 30 points of that mark. Walker isn't that much worse a defender than all of them. And even if he were, that still places him around the top 15 2B in baseball at worst. Not really "almost worthless".

[JGalt73]

2005 Win Shares, 2B NL (batting/fielding; total):

 

1 Kent 26.0/4.3; 30

2 Utley 22.1/5.4; 27

3 Giles 19.0/5.7; 25

4 Counsell 14.8/6.9; 21

5 Biggio 14.1/5.1; 19

6 Grudzielan 11.4/6.7; 18

7 Castillo 11.3/6.0; 17

8 Aurilia 14.3/2.1 12; 16

9 Loretta 10.8/3.8; 15

10 Durham 13.0/2.5; 15

11 Walker 10.3/3.3; 14

 

Or, as a rate (WSP from Hardball Times) with very part-timers excluded:

 

1 Kent 0.866

2 Utley 0.801

3 Polanco 0.720

4 Giles 0.701

5 Spivey 0.692

6 Aurilia 0.662

7 Luna 0.634

8 Counsell 0.622

9 Castillo 0.617

10 Vidro 0.589

11 Loretta 0.586

12 Walker 0.584

 

After your Kent, Utley, Polanco & Giles, Walker is in middle/lower level of the bunch for next tier, good NL 2B.

Edited December 26, 2005 by JGalt73

[CUBZ99]

Walker is almost worthless, as is evidenced by the lack of any team willing to give up a good player for a relatively cheap 2B. Cubs made a huge mistake by electing to keep Walker over Grudz last year, but he may make a decent overpaid LH bat of the bench this year.

 

Can you name 10 2B that are better than Walker, or were last year?

 

Offensively or Defensively?

 

Total package.

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

 

The total package goes beyond OBP. Only 5 2B had an OPS higher than Walker, and only a couple following him were within 30 points of that mark. Walker isn't that much worse a defender than all of them. And even if he were, that still places him around the top 15 2B in baseball at worst. Not really "almost worthless".

 

Walker has close to zero value for the Cubs at the moment. He is most likely not going to play 2B at Wrigley to start the season, and has yet to bring any interest in the trade market.

 

As pointed out, Walker is nothing special. He is an average offensive 2B, -- above average in SLG, but below average in OBP. Further, he is widely viewed as vastly below average defensively (around the league and by the Cubs).

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If the Cubs start Perez over Walker at 2b it will show just how inept the management of this team really is.

[anemic offense]

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

 

Of course, if you take into account Walker's OBP PLUS his SLG (the main reason I like to keep him around), the list of 2nd basemen above Walker shrinks considerably. The following NL 2B had a higher OPS than Walker last season:

 

Chase Utley

Jeff Kent

 

That is all.

 

Walker also costs us only 2.5 million.

 

I understand your argument. But was Walker's slugging REALLY that IMPORTANT in LAST year's lineup? Think about it. We had a bevy of guys who could hit the long ball, and the team as a whole was at or near the top of the NL in slugging (I think, you can correct me if I'm wrong). Yet at the same time this team had constant trouble scoring consistent runs. There were elements this team desparately needed that Todd didn't really provide (which is NOT Todd's fault, rather Hendry's). At some point, the extra sluggling Todd brought the table was redundant.

 

Now ask yourslef this, would you have taken another 2B that had more OBP, better defense, and better speed over Todd for LAST year's team? I would have. This year may be a different story. Todd's power and LH bat are more of a necessity than it was last year. You see, the players you need all depends on the construct of your team. This year the D, team speed, is greatly increased while the overall slugging should dip (OBP should be increased, but that remains to be seen). This makes Todd's offensive skill set more valuable while his subpar defense shoud be somewhat "hid" on a team of (seemingly) pretty good defenders. At least that's my view on the subject.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Here are the secondbasemen that I'd probably take over Walker:

 

1. Giles

2. Utley

3. Castillo

4. Roberts

5. Kent

 

I'd not be dissapointed with players like Figgins, Freel, and Loretta. If I knew Vidro would be healthy, I might would be interested in him as well.

 

But looking at that list, we failed on getting Castillo. Kent may be available, but it's doubtful. No one else on that list is available. So, that makes Walker the best available secondbasemen for the Cubs. He's certainly more valuable than the players we currently have for the position, so trading him unless we get something of value is stupid.

[10man]

Apparently someone has been reading this because on the Cubs.com depth chart, Todd is #1 at 2B.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

While Hendry may see Walker as third, I have a hard time believing he won't start for Dusty if he's still on the team. My guess is Dusty will start him against all righthanders. I don't see Dusty giving Hairston a lot of at bats over Walker.

 

I could see Perez getting starts over him, but I have a feeling what will most likely occur is that Cedeno rides the bench and against righties Perez will be at SS and Walker at 2b. Against lefties, Cedeno will likely start and either Perez or Hairston will man the other infield position.

[Warpticon]

 

Ok, after looking at the NL secondbase men only, it is easy to see how vastly we overrate T. Walker on this board. Because Walkers OBP is often the argument for keeping him I will compare based on OBP.

 

In NL the following 2B posted a better OBP than Walker in 2005 (not all of these guys played an entire year, but neither did Walker).

 

Loretta

Polanco

Utley

Castillo

Freel

Giles

E. Young

Durham

Kent

 

These guys were at around Walkers OBP

 

Counsil (Barely below)

Biggio (26 HR, but 20 pts lower in OBP)

Vidro (who was hurt and most would take any day over Walker)

Grudz (15 pts lower in OBP)

 

So there are at least 13 2B in the NL ALONE that had better or comparable numbers to Walker.

 

Defensively, I would take almost every player named above over Walker, except Kent.

 

Of course, if you take into account Walker's OBP PLUS his SLG (the main reason I like to keep him around), the list of 2nd basemen above Walker shrinks considerably. The following NL 2B had a higher OPS than Walker last season:

 

Chase Utley

Jeff Kent

 

That is all.

 

Walker also costs us only 2.5 million.

 

I understand your argument. But was Walker's slugging REALLY that IMPORTANT in LAST year's lineup? Think about it. We had a bevy of guys who could hit the long ball, and the team as a whole was at or near the top of the NL in slugging (I think, you can correct me if I'm wrong). Yet at the same time this team had constant trouble scoring consistent runs. There were elements this team desparately needed that Todd didn't really provide (which is NOT Todd's fault, rather Hendry's). At some point, the extra sluggling Todd brought the table was redundant.

 

Now ask yourslef this, would you have taken another 2B that had more OBP, better defense, and better speed over Todd for LAST year's team? I would have. This year may be a different story. Todd's power and LH bat are more of a necessity than it was last year. You see, the players you need all depends on the construct of your team. This year the D, team speed, is greatly increased while the overall slugging should dip (OBP should be increased, but that remains to be seen). This makes Todd's offensive skill set more valuable while his subpar defense shoud be somewhat "hid" on a team of (seemingly) pretty good defenders. At least that's my view on the subject.

 

I wish people would get over the notion that SLG is home runs only. It makes discussion of the issue very difficult.

 

And come on. Slugging is *never* a bad thing. It's *always* important to get as many bases as possible in one's limited opportunities to do so. Period. Calling it "redundant" is just silly. The team was above average in OBP at four positions (1B, 3B, C, and 2B) and well below at the other four spots. Clearly, Walker wasn't the problem here, was he? No, he's not *the* best OBP provider at the position, but he's a) ours, b) cheap, and c) also a good hitter for power, so it would seem more important to improve at positions that were actually weaknesses. Yes, if I could get a 2B that is significantly better at THREE FACETS OF THE GAME, I'd probably take him over Walker, fiscal concerns notwithstanding. I think that goes without saying, but it's not as though the options available are any better--who else were they going to get?

 

I'm not seeing where you get the impression that OBP should be increased. Jones is below average in OBP. Murton should be above average, but he's an unknown. Cedeno the same, though there's plenty of reason to think he may not be above average. Neifi is well below. Incidentally, Juan Pierre's OBP from last year was .326. The NL average OBP was exactly .326. We'd better hope for a big rebound there. And this is the only position at which it appears (barring a Tejada trade) that the Cubs have gotten better *at all* in OBP, unless they get great production from Cedeno and Murton at SS/LF respectively (I think it's a safe assumption that if Neifi plays everyday, he will not provide any OBP to speak of). It looks a lot like the Cubs are trying to limit downside and limiting upside in the process.

[anemic offense]

And come on. Slugging is *never* a bad thing. It's *always* important to get as many bases as possible in one's limited opportunities to do so. Period. Calling it "redundant" is just silly. The team was above average in OBP at four positions (1B, 3B, C, and 2B) and well below at the other four spots. Clearly, Walker wasn't the problem here, was he? No, he's not *the* best OBP provider at the position, but he's a) ours, b) cheap, and c) also a good hitter for power, so it would seem more important to improve at positions that were actually weaknesses. Yes, if I could get a 2B that is significantly better at THREE FACETS OF THE GAME, I'd probably take him over Walker, fiscal concerns notwithstanding. I think that goes without saying, but it's not as though the options available are any better--who else were they going to get?

 

You're putting words in my mouth, I never said sluggin percentage was a bad thing. I also never said the offensive futility was Todd's fault. He is what he is and the Cubs/the fans always knew this. The problem was this team had an overall lack of OBP, speed, and defense and while Todd DID provide the latter of those three, his speed was so poor it GREATLY diminshed the value of his OBP(easy DP target, couldn't steal, not a good first to third candidate, etc.). What also compounds the situaton is 2B is generally (though not all the time, such as Kent) one of those positions where you don't have below average speed. With the team constructed as it was I think the Cubs would have been better off to find a 2b (if they could have) that filled those needs. IMO, a specific skill set of speed, OBP, and defense would have been much more desirable at that position. Was that realistic? Probably not, but it would have been better in an ideal world. And, as we all know, this was Hendry's fault and his fault alone. Had he done a better job (and if Corey hadn't fallen on his face) we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

In contrast, I feel this year's team has a much greater need for Todd's skill set. As it currently stands, we have average to above average speed at EVERY position save 3rd and 2nd (assuming Walker plays). It also figures to have a noticeable decrease in power, an asset that Todd has. It also has a lack of quality left handed bats, a quality which he can provide. In short, I feel Todd is a much better fit on THIS year's team than he was on last year's team. Obviously its nothing Todd has done, rather its the way the team has been constructed around him. Although I'd definately be open to looking at other options (2B) I wouldn't be upset if Todd was in the lineup either. He'd make a great 6th to 7th hitter if Baker constructed this lineup right. But I won't be holding my breath..

[anemic offense]

I'm not seeing where you get the impression that OBP should be increased. Jones is below average in OBP. Murton should be above average, but he's an unknown. Cedeno the same, though there's plenty of reason to think he may not be above average. Neifi is well below. Incidentally, Juan Pierre's OBP from last year was .326. The NL average OBP was exactly .326. We'd better hope for a big rebound there. And this is the only position at which it appears (barring a Tejada trade) that the Cubs have gotten better *at all* in OBP, unless they get great production from Cedeno and Murton at SS/LF respectively (I think it's a safe assumption that if Neifi plays everyday, he will not provide any OBP to speak of). It looks a lot like the Cubs are trying to limit downside and limiting upside in the process.

 

My thinking on the OBP goes as follows:

 

- ARam - Expect similar numbers, though I think he may slightly improve.

 

- Pierre - He will rebound this year and post closer to career avgs. A HUGE upgrade over Cpat.

 

- Murton - I'm figuring him to be in the .340 - .360 range. His stint last year coupled with his patience in the minors should bode well for this.

 

- 2B - The wild card. If Walker starts most of the time the overall numbers (for the position) should improve. But that a big ????

 

- SS - This is my big hunch. Although Ronny's CAREER numbers are well below this he's shown TREMENDOUS improvement as he's moved up. He does all the right things at the plate, and looks fundamentally sound. I think he'll be at least a .330 OBP guy, which is a significant increase over Neifi.

 

Barrett - A wash.

 

Lee - I'd suspect a slight decline in OBP. But when he's consistently had a high 300s OBP I wouldn't expect it to be much.

 

Jones - The recent numbers don't look good but I think he'll rebound a little on this team. I'm figuring him to be in the 320 range. By no means good, but its about the same as Bernie. If anything it will be a slight decline.

 

 

So overall, that's THREE significant upgrades (four with Walk) over what we had last year, 2 washes, 1 slight decline and one ??? In my eyes, that's a large improvement over what we had last year. Even if one provides for some pecismism I see NO WAY (assuming health) it can rival the futility of the 05 team. And this isn't even my Cub bias speeking, its soley out of objectivity.

[CubfaninCA]

Total package has to factor in games played, as well. Hence, there were a lot of guys better than Walker last year. The Cubs would have been better off w/ Grudz. At least, he would have kept Neifi off the field....

 

That being said, if this is what the Cubs are going to war w/ next year, hopefully Walker's back as the 2 hitter. Just put Cedeno in the lineup when Walker gets hurt.

[J.R.]

When the Cubs start Perez over Walker at 2b it will show just how inept the management of this team really is.

 

Enhanced.