Crasnick on the last days of the sinking ship Patterson

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

1) Just because the Cubs seem to want to ship Walker out of town doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. In fact, it's not. It's the wrong thing to do.

 

2) .351 in an extreme pitcher's park while playing half-injured I actually find somewhat impressive.

 

3) Which intangibles?

 

4) Why do we need a guy with speed to play RF?

 

5) Something can also be said for Wilkerson not being linked to rumoured $20m/3yr offers.

 

I agree with you about Walker. His attitude gets under my skin, but oh well. Why is doing anything half-injured a positive, I could easily flip that around to being injury-prone.

 

If we have one of these players playing CF, Walker still at 2B, where is Hendry going to get speed from? Seems RF is the only open position then, and I don't know anyone with wheels to play there except Abreu.

 

I agreed 3/20 is too much for Jones. I'd look at Jermaine Dye's deal last year and go from there.

 

Furcal, maybe. :-k

[Diffusion]

I said in the other thread that Jones has one of the quickest bats in the AL, and he does. While that hasn't led him to have amazing BA's or anything, when he's older thats what keeps players productive. I'd also prefer his speed and defense over Wilkerson.

 

It's lucky for Jacque Jones that he has all that bat speed, because without it he'd be discovering hitting lows we didn't even know existed in about five years time.

[Diffusion]

Why is doing anything half-injured a positive, I could easily flip that around to being injury-prone.

 

You could, but only if you didn't actually know what injury-prone meant. You're not one of those that thinks Mark Prior's injury-prone, are you?

 

If we have one of these players playing CF, Walker still at 2B, where is Hendry going to get speed from? Seems RF is the only open position then, and I don't know anyone with wheels to play there except Abreu.

 

Why the need for speed though?

[fearthecubs]

I'd rather have Wilkerson's batting eye to Jones's quick bat. As players age, bat speed is one of the things they lose; batting eye isn't. Jones's quick bat hasn't helped him so far, I don't see why it would suddenly begin to be any more of a factor now. And it is quite likely, that his bat speed has helped him put up what is lack luster numbers. As that bat slows, those numbers will drop further. With his skill set, he's unable to put up a decent OBP inspite of a declining BA. Wilkerson has shown the ability to do just that. And even with Jones's speed, he's been unable to use it to effectively help out his game. He doesn't get enough triples or doubles with it and has been an ineffective base stealer.

 

Wilkerson is no slouch defensively as well. So, given all the evidence, Wilkerson is by far a better acquistion.

 

Ha, are you ending the conversation by yourself? Batting eye won't help you if you can't hit the ball for power, and I don't really see Wilkerson or Jones as having high range power. Jones does have, by far, the faster bat. Plus more speed, which again, will die out long past Wilkersons. I also severely question Wilkerson's ability to play for a team like the Cubs being coached in such a horrible system, Jones comes from a team with a quality farm system and a quality head coach. I'd trust him to be more consistant and able to handle the different surroundings that Wrigley presents.

Edited November 27, 2005 by fearthecubs

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Who is the driving force being this need for speed over plate discipline? I hope it's Dusty. If Hendry actually bought into that approach after watching last season, he needs to take a long break from baseball.

[fearthecubs]

You're not one of those that thinks Mark Prior's injury-prone, are you?

 

No way. Joey Gathright couldn't have avoided that shot to the arm.

[Warpticon]

I said in the other thread that Jones has one of the quickest bats in the AL, and he does. While that hasn't led him to have amazing BA's or anything, when he's older thats what keeps players productive. I'd also prefer his speed and defense over Wilkerson.

 

It's lucky for Jacque Jones that he has all that bat speed, because without it he'd be discovering hitting lows we didn't even know existed in about five years time.

 

See, this is the same thing people do when talking about slap hitters and how they turn outs into base hits, so they're somehow more valuable. in either case, unless the skill is something they found last week, then i doesn't warrant additional consideration, as it's already in the productivity package. Just as a slap hitter's infield hits don't count twice in his batting average, Jones's quick bat doesn't suddenly make his below-average production more acceptable.

 

And Wilkerson isn't injury-prone, so you can't turn it around and say that and be telling the truth. The fact that he was able to keep playing and be productive (moreso than Jones, certainly) while suffering fairly severe injuries is a testament to how effective he's capable of being when completely healthy.

[fearthecubs]

Something relative to the title - Vance, do you think we could trade Patterson for Wilkerson as part of a package deal?

[fearthecubs]

I said in the other thread that Jones has one of the quickest bats in the AL, and he does. While that hasn't led him to have amazing BA's or anything, when he's older thats what keeps players productive. I'd also prefer his speed and defense over Wilkerson.

 

It's lucky for Jacque Jones that he has all that bat speed, because without it he'd be discovering hitting lows we didn't even know existed in about five years time.

 

See, this is the same thing people do when talking about slap hitters and how they turn outs into base hits, so they're somehow more valuable. in either case, unless the skill is something they found last week, then i doesn't warrant additional consideration, as it's already in the productivity package. Just as a slap hitter's infield hits don't count twice in his batting average, Jones's quick bat doesn't suddenly make his below-average production more acceptable.

 

And Wilkerson isn't injury-prone, so you can't turn it around and say that and be telling the truth. The fact that he was able to keep playing and be productive (moreso than Jones, certainly) while suffering fairly severe injuries is a testament to how effective he's capable of being when completely healthy.

 

No, I could pretty easily question his ability to stay 100% healthy next year. You're crazy if you don't think agents don't bring things like that up in discussions.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'd rather have Wilkerson's batting eye to Jones's quick bat. As players age, bat speed is one of the things they lose; batting eye isn't. Jones's quick bat hasn't helped him so far, I don't see why it would suddenly begin to be any more of a factor now. And it is quite likely, that his bat speed has helped him put up what is lack luster numbers. As that bat slows, those numbers will drop further. With his skill set, he's unable to put up a decent OBP inspite of a declining BA. Wilkerson has shown the ability to do just that. And even with Jones's speed, he's been unable to use it to effectively help out his game. He doesn't get enough triples or doubles with it and has been an ineffective base stealer.

 

Wilkerson is no slouch defensively as well. So, given all the evidence, Wilkerson is by far a better acquistion.

 

Ha, are you ending the conversation by yourself? Batting eye won't help you if you can't hit the ball for power, and I don't really see Wilkerson or Jones as having high range power. Jones does have, by far, the faster bat. Plus more speed, which again, will die out long past Wilkersons. I also severely question Wilkerson's ability to play for a team like the Cubs being coached in such a horrible system, Jones comes from a team with a quality farm system and a quality head coach. I'd trust him to be more consistant and able to handle the different surroundings that Wrigley presents.

 

Batting eye will always help you. It helps you get on base. Wilkerson has consistently gotten on base at a clip of 100 points higher than his BA. It isn't a one year fluke. Take a look at the numbers: BA/OBP

2005: 248/351

2004: 255/374

2003: 268/380

2002: 266/370

2001: 205/304

 

What that tells me is even if Wilkerson becomes a 220 hitter which I doubt, he'd still get on base enough to not be a complete black hole in the line-up. On the other hand, if he's a 260 hitter, then he's likely to be on base around 370-400.

 

Your speculation about organizations and coaching is just that speculation. That and 75 cents will get you a candy bar about anywhere in town.

 

As to Wilkerson's power, in the three of his four full seasons he has slugged over 450. He doesn't have prodigious power, but he can hit the ball for power. In fact, he probably has as much power as JJ.

[fearthecubs]

I'm breaking this to a new thread.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Something relative to the title - Vance, do you think we could trade Patterson for Wilkerson as part of a package deal?

 

I think maybe. Patterson is the type of player Bowden likes, but he may be getting too expensive. I think we'd have to give up a pretty good minor leaguer in the class of Pinto or such. If the price were equal, I'd easily pay the same price for Wilkerson as I would for Pierre.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm breaking this to a new thread.

 

There's no need for a new thread. If you have something to add, do so. The mods can split this one if they feel there is a need to.

 

Creating a new thread just means we'll end up rehashing and restating the same stats we've already said in here.

[fearthecubs]

Maybe, I was just trying to keep this one centered on what's going to happen with the demise of Patterson.

[Jehrico]

It's lucky for Jacque Jones that he has all that bat speed, because without it he'd be discovering hitting lows we didn't even know existed in about five years time.

 

You mean it gets worse than watching Todd Hundley?

[Jehrico]

i think he will be going to the nationals along with a couple of pitching prospects for wilkerson. i've heard that brooks robinson is very high on patterson's tools and the trade would make sense for both teams. i would love to see wilkerson in right if the cubs trade for pierre & dont sign giles. if they sign furcal to lead off and giels for rf, wilkerson can play center.

 

I hope it is Patterson and prospect, not couple of prospects. Wilkerson is good but not that good.

 

I wouldn't mind if Wilkerson at all.

 

Depends on who the prospects are. Nolasco and Aardsma? Count me in. Pinto and Piggy? No thanks.

 

What's your opinion on Nolasco, and what's your opinion on Piggy?

 

I'm not as high on Nolasco as some people are. His control is pretty good, but he's not overpowering. I think that is going to catch up to him as he rises through the system. Piggy, on the other hand, doesn't have as good of control but is a little more overpowering. I expect his control to improve as he moves up, making his "stuff" even better. I think he has a better chance at success at higher levels than Nolasco. If I could get equal return on trading either of them, I'd trade Nolasco first.

[JeffH]

Carmen Pignatiello? Zero value.

[fearthecubs]

Carmen Pignatiello? Zero value.

 

Who is this?

[Diffusion]

Carmen Pignatiello? Zero value.

 

Who is this?

 

Carmen Pignatiello, nicknamed "Piggy", is a 23 year old soft tossing lefty in the Cubs' system. His fastball tops out in the mid eighties, but he has excellent control, very good changeup and curveball, also throws a slider, and has done a good enough job recording outs to move pretty quickly through the system to Triple-A. He's a personal favourite of a lot of people here that follow the minor leagues, simply because the odds are stacked against him ever making it because of the lack of velocity.

 

His numbers over the last three years...

 

2003, Daytona, 156.1 IP, 144 H,, 13 HR, 55 BB, 140 K, 4.38 ERA

2004, West Tenn, 148 IP, 167 H, 16 HR, 39 BB, 137 K, 4.56 ERA

2005, West Tenn, 80.2 IP, 67 H, 3 HR, 28 BB, 77 K, 2.68 ERA

2005, Iowa, 47.1 IP, 52 H, 6 HR, 20 BB, 43 K, 5.51 ERA

 

I have no idea who Jehrico thought "Piggy" was, because "doesn't have as good control [as Nolasco]", "little more overpowering [than Nolasco]", "I expect his control to improve as he moves up" (he's already at Iowa!) and "better chance of success at higher levels [than Nolasco]" are sentences that have never been used to describe Carmen Pignatiello.

 

Then again, I got the impression that Jehrico was just making it up as he went along. Ricky Nolasco certainly doesn't strike out more than a batter an inning by tossing it up there gently. His fastball sits comfortably in the low-nineties with a lot of movement, and his curveball is definately a plus pitch.

[Jehrico]

Carmen Pignatiello? Zero value.

 

Who is this?

 

Carmen Pignatiello, nicknamed "Piggy", is a 23 year old soft tossing lefty in the Cubs' system. His fastball tops out in the mid eighties, but he has excellent control, very good changeup and curveball, also throws a slider, and has done a good enough job recording outs to move pretty quickly through the system to Triple-A. He's a personal favourite of a lot of people here that follow the minor leagues, simply because the odds are stacked against him ever making it because of the lack of velocity.

 

His numbers over the last three years...

 

2003, Daytona, 156.1 IP, 144 H,, 13 HR, 55 BB, 140 K, 4.38 ERA

2004, West Tenn, 148 IP, 167 H, 16 HR, 39 BB, 137 K, 4.56 ERA

2005, West Tenn, 80.2 IP, 67 H, 3 HR, 28 BB, 77 K, 2.68 ERA

2005, Iowa, 47.1 IP, 52 H, 6 HR, 20 BB, 43 K, 5.51 ERA

 

I have no idea who Jehrico thought "Piggy" was, because "doesn't have as good control [as Nolasco]", "little more overpowering [than Nolasco]", "I expect his control to improve as he moves up" (he's already at Iowa!) and "better chance of success at higher levels [than Nolasco]" are sentences that have never been used to describe Carmen Pignatiello.

 

Then again, I got the impression that Jehrico was just making it up as he went along. Ricky Nolasco certainly doesn't strike out more than a batter an inning by tossing it up there gently. His fastball sits comfortably in the low-nineties with a lot of movement, and his curveball is definately a plus pitch.

 

I don't know what your problem is, but you can quit with the condescending crap. If you're not sure, ask for context. Overpowering doesn't always mean speed. I don't have a whole lot of time watching the guys in the minors, but I have picked up a couple games here and there while I've been stateside. I've seen Nolasco pitch once, and Piggy twice. If I have the extra time, I try to go out and catch a game when the time rarely permits. And based on my personal observations, hitters had a considerable harder time putting any kind of wood on the ball against Pigs than Nolasco. I'm sorry if I don't get to watch that many games, I've spend much of the last 27 months prior to August overseas, and no, I don't have nearly as much time as you apparently do to sit on my rear end and read scouting reports. The guy asked me a question, I answered. If you feel like acting like the sole source anyone should be consulting, then why didn't you just answer the post when he asked me? Or better yet, why don't you get off of this high horse you've been sitting on and ask questions rather than throwing out baseless acusations?

[Jehrico]

Carmen Pignatiello? Zero value.

 

Who is this?

 

Carmen Pignatiello, nicknamed "Piggy", is a 23 year old soft tossing lefty in the Cubs' system. His fastball tops out in the mid eighties, but he has excellent control, very good changeup and curveball, also throws a slider, and has done a good enough job recording outs to move pretty quickly through the system to Triple-A. He's a personal favourite of a lot of people here that follow the minor leagues, simply because the odds are stacked against him ever making it because of the lack of velocity.

 

His numbers over the last three years...

 

2003, Daytona, 156.1 IP, 144 H,, 13 HR, 55 BB, 140 K, 4.38 ERA

2004, West Tenn, 148 IP, 167 H, 16 HR, 39 BB, 137 K, 4.56 ERA

2005, West Tenn, 80.2 IP, 67 H, 3 HR, 28 BB, 77 K, 2.68 ERA

2005, Iowa, 47.1 IP, 52 H, 6 HR, 20 BB, 43 K, 5.51 ERA

 

I have no idea who Jehrico thought "Piggy" was, because "doesn't have as good control [as Nolasco]", "little more overpowering [than Nolasco]", "I expect his control to improve as he moves up" (he's already at Iowa!) and "better chance of success at higher levels [than Nolasco]" are sentences that have never been used to describe Carmen Pignatiello.

 

Then again, I got the impression that Jehrico was just making it up as he went along. Ricky Nolasco certainly doesn't strike out more than a batter an inning by tossing it up there gently. His fastball sits comfortably in the low-nineties with a lot of movement, and his curveball is definately a plus pitch.

 

And while I'm at it, going back and doing some homework, Ricky Nolasco repeated AA last year. He got a taste of AAA in 2004, and his K rate suffered quite a big drop. Piggy, on the other hand, struggled like Nolasco in his first taste of AAA, but his K rate remained fairly constant. So while you're going to accuse me of just making it up, that would tend to support my belief that Piggy's stuff will hold up a little better at higher levels than Nolascos, as Pig's peripherals didn't take a big hit at the next level.

 

I don't think either of them have much of a future with our org, but that wasn't the question that was asked.

 

Have you ever seen either pitch, or do you just sit around and read scouting reports and then accuse other people of making stuff up because maybe they saw a performance that wasn't in line with the scouting report?

[RynoRules]

"Just let yer' love flow, like a mountain stream..."

 

:wink:

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I really don't see why anyone is getting all bent out of shape that Diffusion posted a scouting report on Piggy that is very accurate.

 

My feeling is if you can't handle someone posting info that contradicts or adds to what you post, you really shouldn't put your ideas out for public consumption.

[fearthecubs]

Jehrico you condescend to me all the time. Diffusion on the other hand usually posts pretty detailed and intelligent stuff, including what you're getting upset about. It was just a breakdown on his stats, man.

 

Those stats on "Piggy" come really, really far from impressing me btw.

[stitchface]

I really don't see why anyone is getting all bent out of shape that Diffusion posted a scouting report on Piggy that is very accurate.

 

My feeling is if you can't handle someone posting info that contradicts or adds to what you post, you really shouldn't put your ideas out for public consumption.

 

clearly vance, the problem was with the statement that Jehrico was "making it up as he went along." This statement is definitely inflammatory, insulting, and contributes nothing to the topic. I enjoyed seeing the scouting report but could have done without the personal attack.

 

Piggy's k rates are likely what excites people here more than the odds being stacked against him, but I'll speak only for myself on that topic.