11/26 College Football

[Derwood]

 

But that 1 loss has more than likely eliminated UCLA from a BCS game, which I think is a screw job.

 

Yeah, you'd think the networks would want as many gold helmets as possible :lol:

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

We know WVa is in now, and it seems ND is in no matter what. OSU as well. So Oregon is probably screwed akready, and Va Tech will be out should they lose to Florida St.

 

On the contrary, I think both Texas and USC can lose next week and make the BCS. Colordo would get the auto-berth (and likely play WVa in the Sugar), but Texas would bump OSU out of an at-large. UCLA could beat USC and STILL get screwed by a ND at-large

 

How would UCLA get screwed. They would win the PAC-10 and get an automatic berth, right?

 

I'm still unclear on this. I thought I read that USC could lose and still win the PAC-10

 

If UCLA defeats USC, there would be a 3-way tie for first place (Oregon, USC, UCLA). Then they'd go to losses against common opponents - losing to a worse team is worse. Obviously, UCLA will be eliminated there. Obviously it's their fault for losing to a bad Arizona team.

 

But that 1 loss has more than likely eliminated UCLA from a BCS game, which I think is a screw job.

 

If UCLA beats USC they should get an at-large over ND since ND's claim to fame is that they almost beat USC.

[Derwood]

We know WVa is in now, and it seems ND is in no matter what. OSU as well. So Oregon is probably screwed akready, and Va Tech will be out should they lose to Florida St.

 

On the contrary, I think both Texas and USC can lose next week and make the BCS. Colordo would get the auto-berth (and likely play WVa in the Sugar), but Texas would bump OSU out of an at-large. UCLA could beat USC and STILL get screwed by a ND at-large

 

How would UCLA get screwed. They would win the PAC-10 and get an automatic berth, right?

 

I'm still unclear on this. I thought I read that USC could lose and still win the PAC-10

 

If UCLA defeats USC, there would be a 3-way tie for first place (Oregon, USC, UCLA). Then they'd go to losses against common opponents - losing to a worse team is worse. Obviously, UCLA will be eliminated there. Obviously it's their fault for losing to a bad Arizona team.

 

But that 1 loss has more than likely eliminated UCLA from a BCS game, which I think is a screw job.

 

If UCLA beats USC they should get an at-large over ND since ND's claim to fame is that they almost beat USC.

 

You and your logic are not welcome here! :wink:

[Andy]

We know WVa is in now, and it seems ND is in no matter what. OSU as well. So Oregon is probably screwed akready, and Va Tech will be out should they lose to Florida St.

 

On the contrary, I think both Texas and USC can lose next week and make the BCS. Colordo would get the auto-berth (and likely play WVa in the Sugar), but Texas would bump OSU out of an at-large. UCLA could beat USC and STILL get screwed by a ND at-large

 

How would UCLA get screwed. They would win the PAC-10 and get an automatic berth, right?

 

I'm still unclear on this. I thought I read that USC could lose and still win the PAC-10

 

If UCLA defeats USC, there would be a 3-way tie for first place (Oregon, USC, UCLA). Then they'd go to losses against common opponents - losing to a worse team is worse. Obviously, UCLA will be eliminated there. Obviously it's their fault for losing to a bad Arizona team.

 

But that 1 loss has more than likely eliminated UCLA from a BCS game, which I think is a screw job.

 

If UCLA beats USC they should get an at-large over ND since ND's claim to fame is that they almost beat USC.

I think Notre Dame's claim to fame is that they didn't get beaten by 35 points by Arizona.

 

But I agree that if UCLA wins, it'd be hard not to give them a bid - certainly harder than denying Oregon.

[TruffleShuffle]

PSU should be ranked ahead of LSU.

 

PSU's loss came on the road to a Michigan team that finished 7-4, while LSU lost at home to Tennessee, which isn't even bowl eligible. LSU had 5 wins of 4 points or less, including at home this past week to a bad Arkansas team. Only one of PSU's 10 wins came by less than a touchdown (Northwestern).

[SouthSideRyan]

I think Notre Dame's claim to fame is that they didn't get beaten by 35 points by Arizona.

 

Details...

 

 

(Is that how the snark is supposed to work around here?)

[imb]

We know WVa is in now, and it seems ND is in no matter what. OSU as well. So Oregon is probably screwed akready, and Va Tech will be out should they lose to Florida St.

 

On the contrary, I think both Texas and USC can lose next week and make the BCS. Colordo would get the auto-berth (and likely play WVa in the Sugar), but Texas would bump OSU out of an at-large. UCLA could beat USC and STILL get screwed by a ND at-large

 

How would UCLA get screwed. They would win the PAC-10 and get an automatic berth, right?

 

I'm still unclear on this. I thought I read that USC could lose and still win the PAC-10

 

If UCLA defeats USC, there would be a 3-way tie for first place (Oregon, USC, UCLA). Then they'd go to losses against common opponents - losing to a worse team is worse. Obviously, UCLA will be eliminated there. Obviously it's their fault for losing to a bad Arizona team.

 

But that 1 loss has more than likely eliminated UCLA from a BCS game, which I think is a screw job.

 

If UCLA beats USC they should get an at-large over ND since ND's claim to fame is that they almost beat USC.

I think Notre Dame's claim to fame is that they didn't get beaten by 35 points by Arizona.

 

But I agree that if UCLA wins, it'd be hard not to give them a bid - certainly harder than denying Oregon.

 

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

[Derwood]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

[Andy]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

God's loving them isn't near as important as the BCS loving the money Notre Dame generates, if you could take off the "I hate ND" blinders for just one second.

[adamb0719]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

 

Or they met the requirements for the BCS and due to the business aspect they will go. Never was it said there schedule can't be held against them and never was it said it is because god is on their side and Lou Holtz loves them and that is why they belong. This really gets extremely frustrating. You guys don't like ND, I get it, but is it necessary to bash every single week. Yes other teams play weak schedules but I guess that is OK? Only ND's weak schedule needs to be brought up every single week but all the other ones are OK? Fine, they are all in a conference so I guess they can schedule IAA teams, or Kent State, Houston, Hawaii, C Michigan, North Texas, Cincinnati, or whowever and everyone thinks that is OK, but ND's schedule turns out to be weak so that is what will be discussed every week. Yes their schedule was weak, and it is hurting them in the BCS, but it does not matter. The BCS is a business. If anything be mad at that and bash the BCS everyweek for taking ND, not ND for going. I have said on many occasions that I would rather not discuss ND and their schedule but every single week somebody brings it back up, and then complains when it is being discussed. Can it just be left alone for one week. Lets wait until Dec 4th and then everybody can start up again, but lets give a rest for a bit.

[Derwood]

I think the ND hatred comes from the fact that they seemingly play by different rules than everyone else. Considering there are less than 10 independent schools, I would be all for a rule stating every division 1-A school MUST be in a conference. Then we wouldn't keep having this argument

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

God's loving them isn't near as important as the BCS loving the money Notre Dame generates, if you could take off the "I hate ND" blinders for just one second.

 

Why is it that anytime someone claims ND doesn't deserve it, they have "blinders" on. I think it's more likely the ND fans have "blinders" tahn the fact that non_ND fans have them.

[Andy]

I think the ND hatred comes from the fact that they seemingly play by different rules than everyone else. Considering there are less than 10 independent schools, I would be all for a rule stating every division 1-A school MUST be in a conference. Then we wouldn't keep having this argument

Army and Navy would also have a bit of a problem with that.

 

If you can somehow come up with a way for this to work with alignments and memberships and such, you talk to Myles Brand and maybe he can pull it off.

 

I'll also note that this is an ironic argument coming from someone whose team stopped being independents one decade ago and up until this year had been sliding downhill ever since then.

[Andy]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

God's loving them isn't near as important as the BCS loving the money Notre Dame generates, if you could take off the "I hate ND" blinders for just one second.

 

Why is it that anytime someone claims ND doesn't deserve it, they have "blinders" on. I think it's more likely the ND fans have "blinders" tahn the fact that non_ND fans have them.

Of course. Because since ND fulfilled the requirements to get into the BCS, all Irish lovers have blinders on. That makes all the sense in the world.

 

What else do you want ND to do anyway? 10-1? 11-0? 13-0 on an 11-game schedule? What could possibly prove to anyone that this team is BCS-worthy?

[SouthSideRyan]

Has anyone else noticed that all the ND haters are arguing against are straw men?

 

No ND supporter in this thread or any other thread are making any of the ridiculous arguments that ND deserves something just for being ND, that God on their side means they're the best team in the country, it's all just fringe absurdities that helps make your argument better.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What team has ND beat that was any good, besides Michigan?

 

Haven't you heard? It doesn't matter. It's not their fault that their super tough schedule ended up being weak, so you can't hold it against them, and every other team plays weak teams, and they are Notre Dame and God loves them and so does Lou Holtz so they belong in the Fiesta Bowl.

God's loving them isn't near as important as the BCS loving the money Notre Dame generates, if you could take off the "I hate ND" blinders for just one second.

 

Why is it that anytime someone claims ND doesn't deserve it, they have "blinders" on. I think it's more likely the ND fans have "blinders" tahn the fact that non_ND fans have them.

Of course. Because since ND fulfilled the requirements to get into the BCS, all Irish lovers have blinders on. That makes all the sense in the world.

 

What else do you want ND to do anyway? 10-1? 11-0? 13-0 on an 11-game schedule? What could possibly prove to anyone that this team is BCS-worthy?

 

Considering there are other one-loss teams that could get left out, yes I'd expect them to be 10-1.

 

What do you expect Oregon, Auburn, UCLA, Miami, or West Viginia to do? Why is ND deserving over those schools? They're not, except for $$$. Somehow, I don't really think that should matter. Also, what more did you expect TCU to do? They only lost one game. Should they have to be perfect to get into a BCS game?

 

So, yes. Based on the fact that I count 9 one-loss schools, maybe ND should have lost one fewer and I would think they deserve a BCS game. Or maybe they should have played more ranked teams. I just don't see ND as more deserving than Miami, UCLA, Auburn, or Oregon to begin with.

[adamb0719]

Considering there are other one-loss teams that could get left out, yes I'd expect them to be 10-1.

 

What do you expect Oregon, Auburn, UCLA, Miami, or West Viginia to do? Why is ND deserving over those schools? They're not, except for $$$. Somehow, I don't really think that should matter. Also, what more did you expect TCU to do? They only lost one game. Should they have to be perfect to get into a BCS game?

 

So, yes. Based on the fact that I count 9 one-loss schools, maybe ND should have lost one fewer and I would think they deserve a BCS game. Or maybe they should have played more ranked teams. I just don't see ND as more deserving than Miami, UCLA, Auburn, or Oregon to begin with.

 

Vance, it is all about $$$ and that is it. I am not, and I don't think NDistops is, arguing that ND deserves it over these schools. We have admitted it was a business and ND is the best for profit. I feel they are just as deserving as some schools, but they don't deserve it more than them (well not more than most of them). That would be foolish. There are arguments on both sides both for and against ND but those points are all useless since it comes down to money. I don't get why everyone picks apart ND, they did what they had to in order to be in the BCS. If anything attack the BCS for their requirements (which apply to all schools) and for being so money hungry that other teams are getting left out. Every year teams get screwed. It is the way the BCS works and it is crap but nothing can be done about it.

[Derwood]

I think the ND hatred comes from the fact that they seemingly play by different rules than everyone else. Considering there are less than 10 independent schools, I would be all for a rule stating every division 1-A school MUST be in a conference. Then we wouldn't keep having this argument

Army and Navy would also have a bit of a problem with that.

 

If you can somehow come up with a way for this to work with alignments and memberships and such, you talk to Myles Brand and maybe he can pull it off.

 

I'll also note that this is an ironic argument coming from someone whose team stopped being independents one decade ago and up until this year had been sliding downhill ever since then.

 

Really?

 

PSU joined the big Ten in 1990 and played their first conference schedule in 1993.

 

Their record since then: 106-50

Notre Dame's record in that same period: 99-55-1

 

Oh, plus 4 different coaches in that span. So how has joining the Big Ten made PSU inferior to ND (or anybody)?

[Derwood]

A prime example of the ND mentality...

 

from http://www.ndnation.com (an editorial...not from the message board)

 

The annual season known as bowl whining, which usually starts about the same time the first Christmas decorations appear, is upon us. Here’s how it works: teams that don’t get it done on the field turn to their conferences, the media and their talking head connections and whine and wail with the hope of influencing bowl representatives. The blame lies not in the stars, but with the greedy conferences.

 

Conferences have made a giant power grab over the last decade (sometimes at the expense of each other) and have monopolized the BCS allowing teams like a 7-4 Purdue squad into the BCS, and in the process, taking a spot from a deserving school. And by manufacturing revenue generating conference championship games (with the sole purpose of making money) they've added another wrinkle to the mess. An undefeated conference team could lose to a three, four or five loss team in the championship game, giving an undeserving and low ranked champion a BCS bid and by definition leaving an deserving team out in the January cold. The conferences want it both ways, to make money coming and going and they will bully anyone in their paths to make it happen.

 

Here’s how omahadomer breaks it down:

 

The predicament of Oregon, OSU, Miami, Auburnand every other team from a BCS conference that didn't win its conference is entirely a function of their (that is to say, the conferences') decision to protect conference champions at all cost. It's easy to say that Cal got left out unfairly last year because Texas passed them up because of Mack's lobbying, but the truth is that the team that took Cal's spot was Pittsburgh.

 

In past years, this BCS system has placed an FSU team that ended the year with 5 losses in a BCS bowl, last year's terrible Pitt team, and this year will put a weak W.V. or U.S.F. team in. And, don't forget, a bad F.S.U. squad could get back in if they upset V. Tech. in the conference championship game.

 

There are 4 B.C.S. bowls, so obviously there are 8 slots. Right now the top 8 teams are U.S.C., Texas, P.S.U., L.S.U., V. Tech., O.S.U., Oregon and N.D. I would have no problem with placing those the 8 teams in B.C.S. bowls. But that's not the system the conferences wanted.

 

The conferences signed on to a system that is going to give W.V. (#11) or U.S.F. (#33) a slot no matter what, and might give Georgia (#13), UCLA (#12) or FSU (#24) spots if they can win their conference championship game (in UCLA's case, a de facto conference championship game).

 

Teams like Oregon, Ohio State, Miami etc. all readily accept the benefit of being in a conference, which is to say that if they get hot in conference play they'll happily take their spot in a B.C.S. game even if they're 7-4 or 8-3. N.D. has no such benefit; we must win 9 games and be ranked high enough no matter what. We cannot claim a spot based simply upon a subset of our performance.

 

So when Oregon or Ohio State or Miami is crying in its collective beer about being left out, there's a simple answer: Either win your conference or agree to a system that rewards merit rather than conference champions. Either way, your beef is with your conference commissioner, not N.D.

 

Word brother omaha.

 

If your team doesn't get invited to the bowl you want or expect, you’re not getting ripped off and your team is not getting gypped. Bowls exist to make money; they aren't prizes like smiley faces given out to good performers in a fourth grade class. The bowl system is a moneymaking junket-peddling dinosaur run by the same said reptiles. To play with the big boys you need to prove your team can provide a sufficient following to bring in the necessary money for the bowl slush fund. That takes years of consistent winning.

 

Bowls are in the business of putting together the most attractive match-ups for fan attendance and television. That's their job; it is not to reward WAC U. for their first eight-win season in ten years.

 

If you think that's unfair, go cry to Dr. Phil. You want an equitable system? Tell the conferences to give up their guaranteed spots. The conferences are self-perpetuating monoliths. Pressure your school president to junk the junkets, drop the guarantees or get a real playoff system. Until then, if you're not in the BCS championship game you haven't earned the right to complain. You're just a school that’s had a decent year but not good enough to get into the championship game, which is the only game designed to match the best teams. Every other bowl is in the business of making money and that means sometimes having to compensate for an undeserving conference team that they're forced to take via a tie-in. The law of unintended consequences is a b****.

[adamb0719]

A prime example of the ND mentality...

 

Derwood, I have complained on this board about how biased that board is, even for my taste. And Rock's House is the message board. The Rock and OmahaDomer are posters there (who are extemely ND biased). That is a post from the message board. Every week they issue "The Rock Report" put together by a few of the posters and place it on the hompage. That was one of them. I have said this many times, but please don't take what a few fans do and label ND fans as a whole based on that. I am sure people could read some posts on here or other Cubs message boards and say the same thing about Cubs fans, but we all know it isn't true. The same holds true with ND fans, and to be quite honest I am getting sick and tired of the fans constantly being portrayed in a negative light. You don't like the school, fine, but please stop making remarks about the fans. There are many, many respectful ND fans. Don't let a few bad apples ruin you opinion of the people who follow ND (that isn't directed at only you).

[Derwood]

My mistake. The fact that it was posted on the main page like a featured article led me to believe it was something different than the message board,

 

But the point of my posting it was simply to show yet another example of the attitude that ND is somehow above or better than conference teams. Also, it once again brings up the extremely flawed logic of "It's okay for ND to bump out more deserving teams because they make more money, etc." It's very easy for you or any other Irish fan to say "well, that's just the way the system is, don't blame the school, blame the BCS, etc." But I don't hear any ND fans or supporters say "ND really ought to opt out of this privelaged arrangement for the betterment of the sport." It's like a spoiled rich kid saying "don't hate me because my daddy buys me a new BMW every year, It's not MY fault he's rich. What? Sell the car and donate the money to charity? Errr...."

[SouthSideRyan]

Whatever, Cubs fans just go to Wrigley to get drunk and look at trixies.

[SouthSideRyan]

My mistake. The fact that it was posted on the main page like a featured article led me to believe it was something different than the message board,

 

But the point of my posting it was simply to show yet another example of the attitude that ND is somehow above or better than conference teams. Also, it once again brings up the extremely flawed logic of "It's okay for ND to bump out more deserving teams because they make more money, etc." It's very easy for you or any other Irish fan to say "well, that's just the way the system is, don't blame the school, blame the BCS, etc." But I don't hear any ND fans or supporters say "ND really ought to opt out of this privelaged arrangement for the betterment of the sport." It's like a spoiled rich kid saying "don't hate me because my daddy buys me a new BMW every year, It's not MY fault he's rich. What? Sell the car and donate the money to charity? Errr...."

 

Because ND fans (at least the logical ones) weren't complaining in '02 when they didn't make a BCS bowl despite having met the requirements. They weren't taken as the system leaves an option to not be taken, and that was that. The Miamis of the world are the rich kids that only get a new BMW every year and complain cause they're not getting the Porsche the kid across the street is getting.

[adamb0719]

My mistake. The fact that it was posted on the main page like a featured article led me to believe it was something different than the message board,

 

But the point of my posting it was simply to show yet another example of the attitude that ND is somehow above or better than conference teams. Also, it once again brings up the extremely flawed logic of "It's okay for ND to bump out more deserving teams because they make more money, etc." It's very easy for you or any other Irish fan to say "well, that's just the way the system is, don't blame the school, blame the BCS, etc." But I don't hear any ND fans or supporters say "ND really ought to opt out of this privelaged arrangement for the betterment of the sport." It's like a spoiled rich kid saying "don't hate me because my daddy buys me a new BMW every year, It's not MY fault he's rich. What? Sell the car and donate the money to charity? Errr...."

 

Why would ND opt out? Would you turn down $13.5 million if you did everything you were required to in order to get it? ND did what they had to, plain and simple. It is not OK for ND to bump out a more deserving team, but the fact is they can because of the BCS flaws. ND is not bumping them out either, the Fiesta Bowl execs are bumping them out due to their greed. I see your (and everyones) argument that ND is not a deserving as some other schools. However would you see ND petitioning like Oregon is to get in, or like schools have done in the past? If they were left out, ND would go to the Gator Bowl and not try to win over BCS execs, much like they did in '02.

 

What is so privilaged about the arrangment? It is the same arrangment every school has, 9 wins and top 12 in the BCS.

[Chocolate Milk]

UCLA shouldn't be in the conversation for the BCS. Perhaps if they hadn't been completely embarrassed by Arizona, maybe, but not now. That was a horrible loss.