Cardinals Bow Out Of Giles Race, Enter Dotel's

[fearthecubs]

Some Snippets:

 

 

Of prime importance to the Cardinals is clearly pitching. The Cardinals have told the agent for outfielder Brian Giles, a player of great interest to fill a vacancy, that they are now focused on pitching. It's possible the Cardinals will land a starter and then, for example, use arbitration-eligible Jason Marquis in a swap for an outfielder, or sign an outfielder and need Marquis. Or countless other variations. It's a row of transaction dominoes, one affecting another, and the Cardinals are only setting things up now.

 

The Cardinals ... have put in a call to the agent of free agent reliever Octavio Dotel. More than the big money, big commitment that it will take to land Burnett, it's the Dotel interest that smacks of a Cardinals move.

 

Dotel, 31, is rehabilitating his right elbow from ligament-replacement surgery in early June. He and his doctors expect him to be able to throw in spring training and to be game ready around opening day, his agent said. Dotel was Oakland's closer at the time of the surgery, which has obviously altered the kind of contract he can command.

 

Dotel's representative Friday confirmed the Cardinals had called.

 

While I'm far from convinced we're even a player in Giles, who do you think usurps the Cards as the main player? I'll go with New York, who was turned off by Boras/Damon. I'm not sure if this development helps the Cubs chances or not. Hendry seems to have all his eggs in one basket with Furcal anyway.

Edited November 19, 2005 by fearthecubs

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

[RynoRules]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

[E.J.]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

I wouldn't go that far. They'll probably trade for Dunn now. :wink:

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

Jocketty's Cardinals aren't in the OBP starved state we're in. Jocketty's needs and Hendry's needs are vastly different.

 

Jocketty is looking for the last piece of the puzzle. Hendry hasn't even taken the puzzle pieces out of the box.

[CubinNY]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

Jocketty's Cardinals aren't in the OBP starved state we're in. Jocketty's needs and Hendry's needs are vastly different.

 

Jocketty is looking for the last piece of the puzzle. Hendry hasn't even taken the puzzle pieces out of the box.

 

Jocketty doesn't have 30 odd million dollars to play with either.

[fearthecubs]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

Excellent point. I haven't been around these boards lately due to the incessant sniping at Hendry. I can understand the loathing towards Baker, but why Hendry? Is it just 'popular' around here to badmouth him or what? Some of you people need to look into the RECENT past and remember MacPhail. I mean, would you rather have Todd Hundley on a monster deal or Barrett? Wait, don't answer that, also know that we obtained Karros and Grudz for Hundley and they in part helped us reach the NLCS.

 

I'd be thrilled if we got Giles, but if we don't, fine - it doesn't mean Hendry is a goon.

 

Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one.

Hendry recognized Hollandsworth wasn't working and pushed for Murton.

Hendry recognized Cedeno would soon be starting and pushed for it.

Hendry traded Sosa.

Hendry moved Wood to the bullpen.

 

All five of these moves were whined about on this forum, but all five Hendry ended up doing. I hate to hijack my own thread, but lay off the Hendry-hatred guys. Are you all liberals? We're supossed to hate the enemy!

[E.J.]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

Excellent point. I haven't been around these boards lately due to the incessant sniping at Hendry. I can understand the loathing towards Baker, but why Hendry? Is it just 'popular' around here to badmouth him or what? Some of you people need to look into the RECENT past and remember MacPhail. I mean, would you rather have Todd Hundley on a monster deal or Barrett? Wait, don't answer that, also know that we obtained Karros and Grudz for Hundley and they in part helped us reach the NLCS.

 

I'd be thrilled if we got Giles, but if we don't, fine - it doesn't mean Hendry is a goon.

 

Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one.

Hendry recognized Hollandsworth wasn't working and pushed for Murton.

Hendry recognized Cedeno would soon be starting and pushed for it.

Hendry traded Sosa.

Hendry moved Wood to the bullpen.

 

All five of these moves were whined about on this forum, but all five Hendry ended up doing. I hate to hijack my own thread, but lay off the Hendry-hatred guys. Are you all liberals? We're supossed to hate the enemy!

 

I don't want to get into a Hendry bashing fight or anything, but your reasononing doesn't make much sense.

 

If Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one, and wanted Murton playing everyday instead of Holla, and wanted Cedeno starting instead of Neifi everyday, then why didn't he tell Dusty to do these things. Hendry is the boss right? Seems like Dusty is the one running the show around here.

 

And with the Sosa trade, we got peanuts in return. Why did Hendry let the videotape be leaked of Sosa leaving early? That only hurt his trade value.

 

And why put Wood in the bullpen at all? It was obvious that while we weren't mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, we were definitely not going to the playoffs, so why risk Wood's health further by pitching him out of the bullpen? Why not just push for the surgery earlier so we knew Wood would be ready to go in April?

[Guancous]

Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one.

Hendry recognized Hollandsworth wasn't working and pushed for Murton.

Hendry recognized Cedeno would soon be starting and pushed for it.

Hendry traded Sosa.

Hendry moved Wood to the bullpen.

 

All five of these moves were whined about on this forum, but all five Hendry ended up doing. I hate to hijack my own thread, but lay off the Hendry-hatred guys. Are you all liberals? We're supossed to hate the enemy!

 

I was appreciating your logic until those last couple of sentences. That was uncalled for.

 

Hendry has proved masterful in the past at getting quality players at the trading deadline for next to nothing. His offseason moves have not been as heralded. I assume it has to do with the fact that 30 teams are still in the race and no one wants to alienate their fan base before the season even starts.

[RynoRules]

So by virtue of the fact that the Cards have less $ to spend, and they have Pujols, Edmonds and Rolen (if he is healthy - who knows?), they shouldn't worry about the fact that they are looking at the possibility of having an OF of Edmonds, Taguchi/Rodriguez and Jacque Jones? Plus there is no guarantee that Grudz will resign.

 

If you were a Cards fan, would you criticize that possibility? I would. The Cards have been very fortunate that some unproven and unknown commodities on their bench have come through for them (Rodriguez, Nunez, Taguchi, etc.).

 

I am just checking, because Hendry has only said that he does not want to get into a bidding war over Giles. The rest of the "conclusions" that have been made with re to Giles are naked conjencture based on certain reporters' source-less conclusions.

[fearthecubs]

Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one.

Hendry recognized Hollandsworth wasn't working and pushed for Murton.

Hendry recognized Cedeno would soon be starting and pushed for it.

Hendry traded Sosa.

Hendry moved Wood to the bullpen.

 

All five of these moves were whined about on this forum, but all five Hendry ended up doing. I hate to hijack my own thread, but lay off the Hendry-hatred guys. Are you all liberals? We're supossed to hate the enemy!

 

I was appreciating your logic until those last couple of sentences. That was uncalled for.

 

Hendry has proved masterful in the past at getting quality players at the trading deadline for next to nothing. His offseason moves have not been as heralded. I assume it has to do with the fact that 30 teams are still in the race and no one wants to alienate their fan base before the season even starts.

 

lol. Sorry, I guess all politics jokes are taken personally by default. Still, you have to question the self-loathing that eminates from Cub fans lately.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

Excellent point. I haven't been around these boards lately due to the incessant sniping at Hendry. I can understand the loathing towards Baker, but why Hendry? Is it just 'popular' around here to badmouth him or what? Some of you people need to look into the RECENT past and remember MacPhail. I mean, would you rather have Todd Hundley on a monster deal or Barrett? Wait, don't answer that, also know that we obtained Karros and Grudz for Hundley and they in part helped us reach the NLCS.

 

I'd be thrilled if we got Giles, but if we don't, fine - it doesn't mean Hendry is a goon.

 

Hendry wanted Dempster as closer from day one.

Hendry recognized Hollandsworth wasn't working and pushed for Murton.

Hendry recognized Cedeno would soon be starting and pushed for it.

Hendry traded Sosa.

Hendry moved Wood to the bullpen.

 

All five of these moves were whined about on this forum, but all five Hendry ended up doing. I hate to hijack my own thread, but lay off the Hendry-hatred guys. Are you all liberals? We're supossed to hate the enemy!

 

Fine. Good Job. Thanks for letting Dusty waste so much time before the obvious occurred.

 

Hendry put Holly in that position to begin with, thanks to his adept handling of Sosa. A Dubois/Holly platoon on opening day? LOL No one saw that not working. No one!

 

If Cedeno will soon be starting, why did Neifi see so much time? JH has always loved Ronny's glove, so it wasn't a defensive issue. Ronny's offense could hardly be worse than Neifi's. WC hunt, my hiney. Neifi was worthless at the plate w/ the exception of one game in St. Louis.

 

Hendry got a used jockstrap for Sosa and paid for it.

 

Great job with Wood, Hendry. He has been a consistent performer (on the DL) ever since you gave him the big contract complete with NTC.

 

 

Why do you love Hendry so much that you're willing to let him skate by with little to no objective criticism? B/C he pulled off a couple good trades? That doesn't put us in the playoffs. What is the payroll he has to work with again?

[fearthecubs]

Fine. Good Job. Thanks for letting Dusty waste so much time before the obvious occurred.

 

Hendry put Holly in that position to begin with, thanks to his adept handling of Sosa. A Dubois/Holly platoon on opening day? LOL No one saw that not working. No one!

 

If Cedeno will soon be starting, why did Neifi see so much time? JH has always loved Ronny's glove, so it wasn't a defensive issue. Ronny's offense could hardly be worse than Neifi's. WC hunt, my hiney. Neifi was worthless at the plate w/ the exception of one game in St. Louis.

 

Hendry got a used jockstrap for Sosa and paid for it.

 

Great job with Wood, Hendry. He has been a consistent performer (on the DL) ever since you gave him the big contract complete with NTC.

 

 

Why do you love Hendry so much that you're willing to let him skate by with little to no objective criticism? B/C he pulled off a couple good trades? That doesn't put us in the playoffs. What is the payroll he has to work with again?

 

I don't think Hendry ever thought Dubois and Hollandsworth would flourish, but he definately thought they'd hold down the fort until Pie/FA '06. Still an error, but not a huge error like basing the offense on them or something.

 

Neifi started because he was the best option for the position, I think that says more about the organization as a whole than Cedeno's talent level. I've said it once and I've said it again, the problem with this organization is scouting and development. Signing Rusch and Neifi to overpriced deals, who cares? It's not genius, but it's not going to stop them from signing anyone they want to, so why does anyone care?

 

Oh, also, anyone - including you and me - would have signed Wood to a 3 year NTC deal after '03, don't kid yourself.

 

edit - html

[JeffH]

I don't think Hendry ever thought Dubois and Hollandsworth would flourish, but he definately thought they'd hold down the fort until Pie/FA '06. Still an error, but not a huge error like basing the offense on them or something.

 

It might be worth remembering that the LF platoon was slotted to hit 7th. It was not altogether unreasonable that they could have at least matched 2004 NL average production from that slot in the batting order:

 

.256 / .317 / .402 / .719

 

Perhaps more questionable was relying on Nomar to match 2004 NL average production from the #3 slot in the batting order:

 

.280 / .365 / .480 / .845

 

Hendry's mistake was building the 2005 club based on far too many question marks and needing to have best case scenarios in too many cases.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Fine. Good Job. Thanks for letting Dusty waste so much time before the obvious occurred.

 

Hendry put Holly in that position to begin with, thanks to his adept handling of Sosa. A Dubois/Holly platoon on opening day? LOL No one saw that not working. No one!

 

If Cedeno will soon be starting, why did Neifi see so much time? JH has always loved Ronny's glove, so it wasn't a defensive issue. Ronny's offense could hardly be worse than Neifi's. WC hunt, my hiney. Neifi was worthless at the plate w/ the exception of one game in St. Louis.

 

Hendry got a used jockstrap for Sosa and paid for it.

 

Great job with Wood, Hendry. He has been a consistent performer (on the DL) ever since you gave him the big contract complete with NTC.

 

 

Why do you love Hendry so much that you're willing to let him skate by with little to no objective criticism? B/C he pulled off a couple good trades? That doesn't put us in the playoffs. What is the payroll he has to work with again?

 

I don't think Hendry ever thought Dubois and Hollandsworth would flourish, but he definately thought they'd hold down the fort until Pie/FA '06. Still an error, but not a huge error like basing the offense on them or something.

 

Neifi started because he was the best option for the position, I think that says more about the organization as a whole than Cedeno's talent level. I've said it once and I've said it again, the problem with this organization is scouting and development. Signing Rusch and Neifi to overpriced deals, who cares? It's not genius, but it's not going to stop them from signing anyone they want to, so why does anyone care?

 

Oh, also, anyone - including you and me - would have signed Wood to a 3 year NTC deal after '03, don't kid yourself.

 

edit - html

 

sorry, Hendry's handling of Sosa led to last season. he devalued his own trade chip more than it already was with the video tape and character assassination bs! how was this in the best interest of the team?

 

we never should have had a holly/dubois platoon in LF. CPat wasn't Hendry's fault. Burnitz, the offensive nightmare, was. He was counting on Nomar to make up for the lack of production in the OF. Brilliant idea considering Nomar's recent injury history.

 

who cares if we overspend on the likes of Neifi, Rusch, and Eyre? I do. Do you manage the finances in your household with that attitude? The "small" things add up.

 

There's usually a big difference in a player making 5 million and a player making 9 million (of similar age and service time). Money matters.

 

Do you get mad at the government for overspending? i assume you do b/c of your "liberal" comment earlier. but hey, who cares?

[fearthecubs]

sorry, Hendry's handling of Sosa led to last season. he devalued his own trade chip more than it already was with the video tape and character assassination bs! how was this in the best interest of the team?

 

You should blame the Tribune Co. for this. Hendry doesn't control what is released to the media and what is not. For a comparison, note how the Bears tried to cover up the Miller/Kreutz fiasco because Kreutz is the anchor of the offense. The Cubs, conversely, threw Sosa under the Tribune Corporate bus.

 

we never should have had a holly/dubois platoon in LF. CPat wasn't Hendry's fault. Burnitz, the offensive nightmare, was. He was counting on Nomar to make up for the lack of production in the OF. Brilliant idea considering Nomar's recent injury history.

 

Like the above poster noted, they were originally slotted to hit 7th, and if combined, they hit .250/20/70, Hendry would be pleased. The problems elsewhere led to offense at any position being critical, and that just complicated everything.

 

who cares if we overspend on the likes of Neifi, Rusch, and Eyre? I do. Do you manage the finances in your household with that attitude? The "small" things add up.

 

There's usually a big difference in a player making 5 million and a player making 9 million (of similar age and service time). Money matters.

 

Do you get mad at the government for overspending? i assume you do b/c of your "liberal" comment earlier. but hey, who cares?

 

 

I certainly don't take anything from baseball and apply it to real life, it's a game. I just think when you're breaking down financial statistics, you need to find something to do outside of the house.

[CuseCubFan69]

I wouldn't count the Cards out of the Giles thing until Giles is signed. It seems to me that we see a lot of free agents are signed by teams that were not suppose to be interested. Edited November 19, 2005 by CuseCubFan69

[Wheelimus]

Well, if I were the Cubs i'd take them at their word and immediately get involved. Really, if Giles has to choose between playing center for the Yankees, or right for the Cubs, which will he choose if the money is close? I think he's seen how the Yankees wind up feeling about Center Fielders who can't cover the ground.

 

I'd run hard at Giles right now.

[fearthecubs]

 

I'd run hard at Giles right now.

 

Seconded. You have to be happy knowing he won't go to St. Louis. That'd be a sick 2-3-4 of Giles, Pujols, and Edmonds. Giles-Lee-aRam looks pretty good too though.

[Brian34Cook]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

[CardsFanInChiTown]

There is a god. And contrary to popular opinion, he doesn't hate the Cubs.

 

Will those of you who have criticized Hendry for not going all-out to get Giles please opine as to whether Jocketty deserves the same treatment? He's got holes at both corner-OF positions.

 

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

[fearthecubs]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

[AramisRamirez]

im going to kill myself. being a cubs fan is just grueling, i think my hair is turning gray despite me being 26 years old. i know we're not going to get giles. i doubt that we get furcal. i highly doubt we get pierre. i think getting mench isnt going to happen. no milton bradley either. no zito. no ANYBODY. these people are all attainable but i just feel like none of its going to happen.

 

hendry better make me think otherwise or else youll be looking at the most bitter cubs fan in the city.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

 

I understand your post but Jocketty has proven time and again that he caan get it done. Remember the Cards are getting a big bat during the offseason - Scott Rolan. I would be upset if we had 30m to play with but we don't. The Cards can't have everything and I accept that.

 

Hendry on the other hand...

 

1) Wastes money on players that don't make a difference.

 

2) Spends or will spend money on positions that have viable in house alternatives.

 

3) Doesn't seem to grasp how perfect of a fit Giles would be. However he might have something else up his sleave - we'll see.

 

4) Hasn't fired Dusty.

[Keener98]

Giles agent was on KMOX last night. Said the Cards are working on pitching RIGHT NOW but when they are finished Brian should still be around. McLaughlin asked if the Cards taking their time to get pitching would keep them from getting Giles he said no.

 

Dont count them outta it yet.. They are focused on pitching right now but never know..

 

He's not working with 30m+ this offseason, if Hendry wanted Giles he could have him. Jocketty has gotten the Cards to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years - I have faith he'll figure something out.

 

I don't know if you can honestly be satisfied with "he'll figure something out." Just read this thread - that's what we thought last year with our LF situation. Quality GM or not, the Cubs and Cardinals both share quite the black hole in the outfield this offseason. I don't really understand why you're "working on pitching" either, I don't see any reason to dump Marquis, and finding a fifth starter shouldn't be so overwhelming it takes your eyes off the prize.

 

I think its quite understandable why the Cards fans are saying they have faith in Jocketty figuring something out. I mean when your team consistently picks up people that are worthless everywhere else(Nunez, Rodriguez, Luna, Eckstein not worthless but certainly wasnt wanted by anybody else etc....) and they perform for your team why wouldnt they

have faith in Jocketty figuring something out. Where as us as Cubs fans plug in somebody comparable or supposedly better and our guy completely flops or gets injured. Cards fans should have faith in Jocketty until he fails to provide them a winner, and Cubs fans are well within reason to be questioning Jim Hendry.