Any respect in Cubs land for Cards approach to pitching?

[indifferent]

I'm sure this post will be received with derision, but I'm prepared.

 

Many jokes are made about Suppan, Morris, and Marquis. Is it only the lack of injuries that allowed Cards pitching to become 1 and 1a the past two years in ERA?

 

I'd argue that within payroll constraints and only one homegrown pitcher, Morris (who was arguably the Cards worst pitcher this year), Walt Jocketty has done a great job in obtaining ground ball pitchers that play to the strengths of our defense. Grudz plays above avg. D to be sure, but was it defensive prowess that resulted in leading the league in double plays this year? One would think it was an abundance of opportunies.

 

And I agree, lack of injuries to starters was a big part of it, but the makeup of the Cards staff was key.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Let's face it, Jocketty gets guys who can catch the ball.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let's face it, Jocketty gets guys who can catch the ball.

 

I bet he hates it though.

[hardcorecubfan]

I would be foolish to say they didn't have a good pitching staff, but then again they are lousy at managing it. the first half the year the Cards lead the majors in complete games toward the end of the year they still continued to pitch 8 innings, though they looked alright they were playing against a team theat was exhausted. If management of the pitiching staff was more efficient they might have been able to have at least one last year in the WS and gotten to it this year

[K-Town]

I would be foolish to say they didn't have a good pitching staff, but then again they are lousy at managing it. the first half the year the Cards lead the majors in complete games toward the end of the year they still continued to pitch 8 innings, though they looked alright they were playing against a team theat was exhausted. If management of the pitiching staff was more efficient they might have been able to have at least one last year in the WS and gotten to it this year

 

So the Cards are lousy at managing their pitching staff, because they didn't win the World Series?

 

Interesting theory.

[CubRock2]

The Cardinals pitching has been good enough.

 

The "awe-inspiring" offense is what diappears. Nobody besides Pujols can hit, and until that changes, they don't scare anybody in the playoffs.

[K-Town]

The Cardinals pitching has been good enough.

 

The "awe-inspiring" offense is what diappears. Nobody besides Pujols can hit, and until that changes, they don't scare anybody in the playoffs.

 

The Astros and Dodgers should have been scared in 2004, when the Cards averaged over 5 runs per game in the playoffs against them.

 

The Padres should have been scared in 2005, when the Cards averaged 7 runs per game against them in the playoffs.

 

 

To say "they don't scare anybody" is just foolish.

[CubinNY]

The Cardinals pitching has been good enough.

 

The "awe-inspiring" offense is what diappears. Nobody besides Pujols can hit, and until that changes, they don't scare anybody in the playoffs.

 

The Astros and Dodgers should have been scared in 2004, when the Cards averaged over 5 runs per game in the playoffs against them.

 

The Padres should have been scared in 2005, when the Cards averaged 7 runs per game against them in the playoffs.

 

 

To say "they don't scare anybody" is just foolish.

 

They scare the hell out of me. And will scare me even more if they get Giles.

It's like freaking Holloween it is so scary.

[indifferent]

I find it amusing how casual fans (not here) still view the Cards as all offense, no pitching. If anything, I think they're swinging the other direction, especially if they settle for a 2nd/3rd tier outfielder.

 

I still don't think it's prudent to go after Burnett at those dollars.

[CubRock2]

I find it amusing how casual fans (not here) still view the Cards as all offense, no pitching.

 

That's the point I was kind of trying to make. Thanks. :oops:

 

Some of their minor league pitching is sick (Anthony Reyes). They really have nothing as far as big impact offense prospects, and the offense is really falling apart. I don't see how the Pitching could even be criticized. Outside of freak injuries, they've been very, very good the last 2 years, and that's not what has failed them in the playoffs.

 

Sure, K-Town. They played some good ball in a couple of Series. I'll give them that.

 

But what exactly happened in the '04 WS and the '05 NLCS? I'm not dogging them, but the absence of an offense was/is their problem.

[indifferent]

I find it amusing how casual fans (not here) still view the Cards as all offense, no pitching.

 

That's the point I was kind of trying to make. Thanks. :oops:

 

Some of their minor league pitching is sick (Anthony Reyes). They really have nothing as far as big impact offense prospects, and the offense is really falling apart. I don't see how the Pitching could even be criticized. Outside of freak injuries, they've been very, very good the last 2 years, and that's not what has failed them in the playoffs.

 

Sure, K-Town. They played some good ball in a couple of Series. I'll give them that.

 

But what exactly happened in the '04 WS and the '05 NLCS? I'm not dogging them, but the absence of an offense was/is their problem.

 

Do you really put more stock in playoff performance than regular season results though? Cards finished 3rd in runs scored in the NL (2 runs behind Philly). Also, the bullpen was pegged as the worst in the playoffs, but during the regular season they had the best bullpen ERA in the NL by a good margin (3.17, Astros were second with 3.63). It's difficult to assess weak spots in the off season. Do you go by regular season results or do you look at where you were lacking in the playoffs?

[UK1679666180]

They've had a very good bullpen combined with relative good health to Carpenter (last year he broke down at the end), but if you're able to get good health out of your #1 and then have several #3 starters stay healthy, you'll be in good shape. mulder just gave them a #2 starter compared to Williams in '04.

 

Based on talent, I'd say Carp. is a #1, Mulder a #2, Suppan a #3, Morris a #4, and Marquis a #5. How is that different from other staffs? Most don't have the #1/2 combo at the top and most don't have them getting over 950IP or whatever it was.

[indifferent]

They've had a very good bullpen combined with relative good health to Carpenter (last year he broke down at the end), but if you're able to get good health out of your #1 and then have several #3 starters stay healthy, you'll be in good shape. mulder just gave them a #2 starter compared to Williams in '04.

 

Based on talent, I'd say Carp. is a #1, Mulder a #2, Suppan a #3, Morris a #4, and Marquis a #5. How is that different from other staffs? Most don't have the #1/2 combo at the top and most don't have them getting over 950IP or whatever it was.

 

I think what makes them unique is they're primarily ground ball pitchers = less expensive and perhaps less injury prone (Carp's Ks were a nice bonus though). I'd be interested in team's starting rotation price tags vs. their production in 05.

[UK1679666180]

They'll likely get rid of at least 1 of the 2 overpaid pitchers in the rotation and replace them with Reyes, so if there isn't any drop-off from the 3-4 pitchers, they'll get more value per $.

[CubRock2]

Do you really put more stock in playoff performance than regular season results though? Cards finished 3rd in runs scored in the NL (2 runs behind Philly). Also, the bullpen was pegged as the worst in the playoffs, but during the regular season they had the best bullpen ERA in the NL by a good margin (3.17, Astros were second with 3.63). It's difficult to assess weak spots in the off season. Do you go by regular season results or do you look at where you were lacking in the playoffs?

 

That's a good question. I really don't know. Over the last 5 or 6 years, I'm guessing the Cardinals have the best regular season record in the NL. They're always winning 90 + games. However, isn't the main goal winning the WS? I'd be THRILLED with the Cubs winning division titles like your Cards have, but wouldn't it be better to see them win a WS?

 

The Cards offense is good, don't get me wrong. But come playoff time, they seem to crumble catastrophically in one series. It's actually quite strange. They're a much better team then they've shown the last couple years at the end of the playoffs.

[Careless]

Going back to the OP, I've got to respect jocketty's method more than hendry's. I mean, what has hendry done for starting pitching recently? Maddux, rusch, estes, and williams. rusch and maddux are low upside aquisitions getting paid somewhat more than I think they should be, and williams is a pretty good deal given that it was a hawkins dump job.

Yes, the cardinals have had good luck with their gambles, but they weren't bad gambles and they weren't blocking a lot of pitching in the minors (please, correct me if I'm wrong on your minors).

And stocking up on gb pitching then getting good infield defense seems perfectly logical to me. Play to your strengths.

[Warpticon]

Grudz plays above avg. D to be sure, but was it defensive prowess that resulted in leading the league in double plays this year? One would think it was an abundance of opportunies.

 

I think it has more to do with him not being Todd Walker.

[Magnetic Curses]

The Cardinals pitching has been good enough.

 

The "awe-inspiring" offense is what diappears. Nobody besides Pujols can hit, and until that changes, they don't scare anybody in the playoffs.

 

The Astros and Dodgers should have been scared in 2004, when the Cards averaged over 5 runs per game in the playoffs against them.

 

The Padres should have been scared in 2005, when the Cards averaged 7 runs per game against them in the playoffs.

 

 

To say "they don't scare anybody" is just foolish.

 

this whole conversation backs up my claim that the team that gets hot the latest wins the series, not necessarily the best. the cards were undenaibly the best team in the majors this year, the sox had the hottest bats in the playoffs for some reason.

 

the playoffs are a complete crapshoot.