Pirates, Cardinals and fights, oh my!

[gus_dog]

After the suspensions and such, I have to say that these guys deserve it, and IMO, the suspensions are too light. These guys are MANAGEMENT, and as such need to lead.

 

On another note, I find it interesting that the Cardinals seem to be involved here (again). Weren't they involved in similar incidents with the Cubs? Of course, many Cardinals & Cardinal partisans say that the Cubbies are bush. It is interesting, no? The Pirates must be bush too?

 

At what point in time do the Cardinals get any type of consideration as being bush?

 

I will grant that Duncan got sucker-punched, which IS bush, but what is really going on to precipitate this?

 

Hmmm...., very interesting indeed. Discussion, please?

[sandberg23]

What happened? I've been out of the baseball realm for a few days. Please enlighten me.

[gus_dog]

What happened? I've been out of the baseball realm for a few days. Please enlighten me.

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/354365203D84ED418625707200115ADE?OpenDocument

 

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050901&content_id=1192930&vkey=news_pit&fext=.jsp&c_id=pit

Edited September 4, 2005 by gus_dog

[sandberg23]

What happened? I've been out of the baseball realm for a few days. Please enlighten me.

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/354365203D84ED418625707200115ADE?OpenDocument

 

Thanks.

 

I don't like the Cardinals. I'll leave it at that. :)

[1wizard]

After the suspensions and such, I have to say that these guys deserve it, and IMO, the suspensions are too light. These guys are MANAGEMENT, and as such need to lead.

 

On another note, I find it interesting that the Cardinals seem to be involved here (again). Weren't they involved in similar incidents with the Cubs? Of course, many Cardinals & Cardinal partisans say that the Cubbies are bush. It is interesting, no? The Pirates must be bush too?

 

At what point in time do the Cardinals get any type of consideration as being bush?

 

I guess I'll take the bait.

 

First of all, you are steroetyping the Cubs, Pirates, and Cardinal players based on the actions of a few.

 

The discussion of whether Z is bush starts with him hitting players intentionally. Moreover, there are several posters (Cub fans) who did not appreciate his childish antics. For example, he hits Edmonds two times in one game. Then Z hits a batter with a fastball after giving up a dinger this year to another team (Brewers?). Even Santo denounced his actions as bush league that night. And the punishment from the league was way to light and the Cubs manager continued to show his reluctance to instill leadership by stating that it was not intentional and not reprimanding his pitcher. For that they are both bush.

 

I personally do not think the Cubs team as bush. Prior seems to pitch high and tight and keeps it respectable. The argument between him and Morris seems like a rivarly thing that has not gone to far.

 

 

As for the situation in Pitt, the situation heated up when Luna took out the Pirates second basemen on a clean slide into second (Friday night). The guy broke his ankle. The next day Albert was on first and the pitcher threw a pitch that hit So Taguchi on the hand. It appeared to be an intentional pitch. Atleast that is what Albert, Duncan and the rest of the team felt. Albert walked to second and had some words for the pitcher.

 

The next day (Sunday) Duncan went out and talked to the pitcher and McClendon had words for Duncan. I am guessing that he did not like the fact that Duncan was talking to his pitcher and I do not blame Mclendon for feeling that way. Then I guess former Cardinal Gerald Perry sucker punched Duncan. Perry's actions were bush. As for Duncan, he should not have approached their pitcher. I think his timing was inappropriate and should have been done after the series. On the other hand, he probably justifies it by saying that he was sticking up for his players.

 

Also, I am sure that the Cardinals continued drubbing of the Pirates helped spur the emotions from Perry and McClendon.

[gus_dog]

Oh, I agree that what Zambrano did was totally out of line. VERY bush.

 

What do you think about Morris purposefully hitting a Cub, then admitting so in the press afterward, but not earning himself a suspension?

 

I remember Baker was really miffed at the fact that Wood got ejected/suspended for throwing high and tight (didn't hit anyone).

 

Seems to be a bit of a double-standard.

 

IMO, the Cubs brought it upon themselves (with the umps) by all of their griping and crying, and childish antics.

 

Morris should have been suspended as well, IMO.

[Mark Priors Calves]

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/PremiumForum/viewtopic.php?t=24865

[gus_dog]

Premium forum = no access for me

[sandberg23]

Premium forum = no access for me

 

Remove the word premium then.

[barrettismyidol]

Premium forum = no access for me

 

take out the premium in the URL

 

viewtopic.php?t=24865

[gus_dog]

I know..., my reply was more toward MPC to remove it from his post.

[1wizard]

What do you think about Morris purposefully hitting a Cub, then admitting so in the press afterward, but not earning himself a suspension?

 

My memory is not the greatest, but I think Morris threw an off speed pitch that missed the batter (went behind him). And I do not recall that he did admit to throwing at the hitter. Usually pitchers hide behind the idea that it was accidental. :wink:

 

Did Morris throw at someone after Z hit Edmonds? I cannot recall.

 

Either way, I am not for pitchers throwing at hitters. And if Morris did so without a reason (retailiation for Z's actions) than that makes his actions bush league. On the other hand, I appreciate watching a good pitcher moving the hitter off the plate or trying to be intimidating. Carpenter, Prior, and Clemens are good examples of this.

[Mark Priors Calves]

I know..., my reply was more toward MPC to remove it from his post.

Its just as easy for you to remove it from the link.

[gus_dog]

I know..., my reply was more toward MPC to remove it from his post.

Its just as easy for you to remove it from the link.

 

Maybe.

 

What about everyone else? You see, the thing is, you could remove it from your post, and save all other readers who don't have premium, thereby one person does it once, instead of everyone else having to do it just to read it.

 

I'm just sayin'.

[Mark Priors Calves]

I know..., my reply was more toward MPC to remove it from his post.

Its just as easy for you to remove it from the link.

 

Maybe.

 

What about everyone else? You see, the thing is, you could remove it from your post, and save all other readers who don't have premium, thereby one person does it once, instead of everyone else having to do it just to read it.

 

I'm just sayin'.

 

If I remove the premium link then all the members with premium membership will be inconvienced.

[gus_dog]

If I remove the premium link then all the members with premium membership will be inconvienced.

 

Really? That seems like a design flaw. I'm just thinking that the premium members would have 100% access accross the board.

 

Hmmm...., thanks for the info.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If I remove the premium link then all the members with premium membership will be inconvienced.

 

Really? That seems like a design flaw. I'm just thinking that the premium members would have 100% access accross the board.

 

Hmmm...., thanks for the info.

 

They have access, but it won't be in the premium format that they paid for. Either way, someone has to add/subtract something to the URL to get what they want.

[UK1679666180]

What do you think about Morris purposefully hitting a Cub, then admitting so in the press afterward, but not earning himself a suspension?

 

My memory is not the greatest, but I think Morris threw an off speed pitch that missed the batter (went behind him). And I do not recall that he did admit to throwing at the hitter. Usually pitchers hide behind the idea that it was accidental. :wink:

 

Did Morris throw at someone after Z hit Edmonds? I cannot recall.

 

Either way, I am not for pitchers throwing at hitters. And if Morris did so without a reason (retailiation for Z's actions) than that makes his actions bush league. On the other hand, I appreciate watching a good pitcher moving the hitter off the plate or trying to be intimidating. Carpenter, Prior, and Clemens are good examples of this.

 

Why is it bush league, MLB has taken away the pitcher's ability to intimidate players?

 

A 1B has been lucky against a good pitcher. He goes 2 for 2 this night, and the opposing pitcher gets a base hit. At 1B, the 1B says "God man, Hoot, you've got such good stuff I don't see how anybody can hit you". The pitcher didn't even look at him and just said you "A-hole" (without the reduction). Next time, the 1B gets to the plate mentions to the C "I'm not going to like to like this at bat am I?". Well, 1st pitch he got nailed.

 

Is this a bush league player (the pitcher)?

[gus_dog]

IMO, nothin' wrong with a little chin music. However, intentionally throwing at the noggin' is something I don't condone.

 

That is, players might get hit, unintentionally, from throwing inside and the pitch gets away. It's an occupational hazard.

 

Throwing with the sole intention of beaning someone is entirely different. You can effectively convey the message without hitting them.

 

JMHO.

[UK1679666180]

IMO, nothin' wrong with a little chin music. However, intentionally throwing at the noggin' is something I don't condone.

 

That is, players might get hit, unintentionally, from throwing inside and the pitch gets away. It's an occupational hazard.

 

Throwing with the sole intention of beaning someone is entirely different. You can effectively convey the message without hitting them.

 

JMHO.

 

It depends where you get hit, in the example I used, the player was hit in the rear. You throw at a player and that's where you want to throw at him.

 

Players get thrown at all the time, it just depends where they get hit that determines diff. degrees.

 

Certainly nothing wrong with moving some feet and trying to eliminate him from diving across the plate, I wish the Cubs did it more. I don't want them to throw at players, but I want them to establish the inside part of the plate and if a player gets hit, chalk it up to bad luck.

[IlliniAmy]

What do you think about Morris purposefully hitting a Cub, then admitting so in the press afterward, but not earning himself a suspension?

 

I thought he admitted that he purposely threw behind a batter?

 

 

Check out the stats on the number of Cardinals players hit vs the number of batters hit by Cardinal pitchers. There is quite a discrepancy.

 

If you want to claim that Duncan shouldn't have been talking to Rick White during batting practice, then maybe MLB needs to make each batting practice "closed" to the opposing team. Players and personnel from each team are out there informally chatting all of the time. Even if you want to say that it breaks an unwritten rule for Dunc to directly ask White about the pitch, do you really think his actions of doing so warrant 4 games? If you do, you're not the unbiased Cub fan I thought you were, gus_dog.

 

Bottom line: If Gerald Perry doesn't throw that punch, this is not in the news and there are no suspensions.

[IlliniAmy]

What do you think about Morris purposefully hitting a Cub, then admitting so in the press afterward, but not earning himself a suspension?

 

I thought he admitted that he purposely threw behind a batter?

 

 

Check out the stats on the number of Cardinals players hit vs the number of batters hit by Cardinal pitchers. There is quite a discrepancy.

 

If you want to claim that Duncan shouldn't have been talking to Rick White during batting practice, then maybe MLB needs to make each batting practice "closed" to the opposing team. Players and personnel from each team are out there informally chatting all of the time. Even if you want to say that it breaks an unwritten rule for Dunc to directly ask White about the pitch, do you really think his actions of doing so warrant 4 games? If you do, you're not the unbiased Cub fan I thought you were, gus_dog.

 

Bottom line: If Gerald Perry doesn't throw that punch, this is not in the news and there are no suspensions.

[IlliniAmy]

I want to clarify something. Dunc's 4 games aren't that out of line if the punishment was based on the fact that Duncan started running towards the Pirates dugout after the whole brawl looked like it was over. My bone of contention with gus_dog is that he seems to think that 4 games is light and that the punishment is simply based on "something that must have precipitated" the punch. gus_dog doesn't even seem to suggest what that something must be, but is merely assuming that because Duncan got punched, something must have happened to warrant it. Do you also assume that if a girl gets raped, something must have happened to warrant it?

[wolf stansson]

Do you also assume that if a girl gets raped, something must have happened to warrant it?

That's a little extreme.

 

 

After serving one game of their suspensions, the disciplinary committee is reviewing the punishments. I don't think Dunc deserved 4 games, but I didn't think it was that inappropriate of a punishment either.

[jjgman21]

 

I thought he admitted that he purposely threw behind a batter?

 

nice selective memory there Amy

 

"A lot of stuff happened last night. I had to stick up for my team, get the warning out early."

 

I believe what you may be remembering is the fact that Morris had so little control that game he couldn't have hit a batter if he tried. and keep in mind, he threw behind Patterson twice in the same at bat.

 

 

Check out the stats on the number of Cardinals players hit vs the number of batters hit by Cardinal pitchers. There is quite a discrepancy.

 

53 to 48. quite the discrepency. considering that the Cards staff from top to bottom is a control staff that pitches to contact, 48 actually seems a little hight to me.

 

 

 

I think gus said something about the Cubs bringing it on themselves for being so whiny last year. I agree to an extent, but have to wonder when the umps are going to start giving Edmonds the strikezone Alou got last year, and when they are going to get fed up with LaRussa's whining and start giving the Cards the same treatment the Cubs got last year. no other manager and pitching coach is allowed to argue balls and strikes from the dugout. why can LaRussa actually come out of the dugout to do so and not get ejected?

 

bottom line is, LaRussa is about as bush as it gets. he's a petulant little baby. fact is, the Cards pitching staff wouldn't have close to 48 hbp if not for their constant retaliation, even when their batters getting hit is clearly unintentional. LaRussa prides himself on having a team that steals signs, then raises a big fuss when other teams do it. he whines that his all-stars won't be well rested to watch the HR derby. he's a great advocate for his team, I'll give him that, but he's so lacking in integrity I don't know how anyone can stand him.

 

one last thing. some Card fan called it a clean slide. put down the coolaid. highly debatable, and most likely a crock of hooey.