BP dissects a Dusty ruined year

[DonnieD]

10 wins is an extremely high amount of wins. For a player of manager to cost his team that much he must truly be one of the worst managers or players of all time.

 

Should he be fired? Sure, he should be fired because like you said the Cubs during his entire tenure have never had a solid answer on any of their prospects until after they have left the Cubs. Because of this it has also forced them to do stupid things in the acquisition front.

 

I can come up with 3 games off the top of my head. How about the 3 games the Cubs lost out of LaTroy Hawkins 4 blown saves. Dempster should have been the closer coming into the year and everyone knew it. Hendry spoke during the off-season like it was a forgone conclusion that the job was his. But Dusty's M.O. of sticking with his guys 'til the bitter end gets us again.

 

If Dusty was on the Titanic, I wonder if he would have ridden it all the way to the bottom.

[CuseCubFan69]

I don't completely blame Baker as injuries and lack of talent did the Cubs in but Baker never pushed the right buttons to right the ship in any way, shape or form.

[XZero771679666304]

I don't completely blame Baker as injuries and lack of talent did the Cubs in but Baker never pushed the right buttons to right the ship in any way, shape or form.

 

As a manager you have to make the most of what you have, and Baker consistently made the worst of it. Hendry is certainly culpable as well, but a lot of the players failure is a byproduct of Dusty's no accountability country club environment.

 

The more I hear Dusty talk, the more blame I assign to him. His attitude/ineptitude just boggles the mind.

 

IMO: Dusty 45% Hendry 40% Players 15%

[Cubzfan64]

I think Baker certainly played his part in making a mockery of this season, but in all honesty, perhaps the team that played this season just isn't that talented.

 

Our starting pitching has not lived up to our expectations - whether it be due to injuries or inconsistency

 

Our relief corp. has been inconsistent all season as well - Dempster has been a bright sign, but can he continue?

 

Barrett - is a better than average offensive catcher, but his defense and skill behind the plate are below average.

 

Lee - had a phenomenal season

 

Walker - Has a good bat, but doesn't provide alot of solid play defensively at 2B

 

SS - Neifi actually filled in well for a 2nd string SS - problem is, we need a 1st string SS and as much as I love Nomar, he didn't come through for us this year and is beginning to live up to his "glass" body comparisons.

 

3B - Ramirez put together a solid offensive season but seemed to have aches and pains all season and it showed in his defensive lapses as well as some non-hustle.

 

LF - I don't even want to talk about it - we tried just about everyone out there and hardly anything was even average.

 

CF - another one I don't want to talk about - Corey regressed TERRIBLY

 

RF - Burnitz was about what we should have all expected - nothing better than average

 

All in all, talent wise, this just simply is NOT a playoff caliber team and the majority of people on this board (although trying to be optimistic) believed that when the season started.

 

Baker did nothing to help the team's cause, but let's face it, we put together a pretty shoddy attempt to winning a division.

[CarolinaCubFan]

I'm no expert, but I feel Baker has been the root of many of our struggles. Hendry can't go blameless, he's continued to let Baker have free reign. The players can't be overlooked, but I feel most of the player struggles are a direct result of Baker's management.

 

Tim made a great post about Corrie in 03. Sosa was out and Corrie was put in the three whole. He was left alone, learned his role, and began to hit like we had always hoped. Since coming back from his injury, Baker has failed in developing Corrie.

 

Baker is a stubborn ass. He's standing firm on his stance of playing kids and it's got to the point he will sacrifice this club's success to save face. This is where Hendry becomes accountable.

 

John Smoltz was interviewed on PTI last night. It was a great interview for any of you who didn't see it. He was talking about ATL's 16 year run and how they set the team up for this season. He admitted the moves they made didn't pan out due to injuries, but gave Bobby Cox much love for the way he has used the kids to compliment the veterans on the club. Smoltz talked about the "fire" the kids brought to the club, something the veterans have fed off of. I don't see that "fire" on the Cubs, and I don't feel Baker has any interest in it.

[XZero771679666304]

I think Baker certainly played his part in making a mockery of this season, but in all honesty, perhaps the team that played this season just isn't that talented.

 

Our starting pitching has not lived up to our expectations - whether it be due to injuries or inconsistency

 

Our relief corp. has been inconsistent all season as well - Dempster has been a bright sign, but can he continue?

 

Barrett - is a better than average offensive catcher, but his defense and skill behind the plate are below average.

 

Lee - had a phenomenal season

 

Walker - Has a good bat, but doesn't provide alot of solid play defensively at 2B

 

SS - Neifi actually filled in well for a 2nd string SS - problem is, we need a 1st string SS and as much as I love Nomar, he didn't come through for us this year and is beginning to live up to his "glass" body comparisons.

 

3B - Ramirez put together a solid offensive season but seemed to have aches and pains all season and it showed in his defensive lapses as well as some non-hustle.

 

LF - I don't even want to talk about it - we tried just about everyone out there and hardly anything was even average.

 

CF - another one I don't want to talk about - Corey regressed TERRIBLY

 

RF - Burnitz was about what we should have all expected - nothing better than average

 

All in all, talent wise, this just simply is NOT a playoff caliber team and the majority of people on this board (although trying to be optimistic) believed that when the season started.

 

Baker did nothing to help the team's cause, but let's face it, we put together a pretty shoddy attempt to winning a division.

 

You make some good points, and while the talent may not be playoff caliber, it is certainly not sub-.500 caliber either.

[cubbieinexile]

Did Dusty cost us games? Sure he did. But you are only remembering games in which his choices did not work. Baker also has games in which his choices did work and that has to be factored in as well. My friends and I have a running joke now the last two seasons. When the Cubs picked up Neifi I bashed the pick up and every time he comes into the game I boo. Unfortunately for me it seems like everytime I listen to the game and Baker brings in Neifi he gets a key hit. Because of it my friends always pick on me for that.

 

 

Yes we can go throughout the season and find plenty of games in which Dusty's choices led to an increase in the Cubs chances for a loss, but you can do that for every manager. Every manager makes moves that cost his team chances to win.

 

 

AS for Corey Patterson everybody likes to point to 2003 as if that was a year Corey accomplished something. He didn't it was his typical season. Have a good month, have a bad month, so on and so on. The only difference is that he got injured so his stats didn't have a chance to fall like they always do. AS for playing the #3 spot he wasn't even that good playing there, and if that is his best spot then he would be costing the Cubs run if they kept him there.

[YearofDaCubs]

Did Dusty cost us games? Sure he did. But you are only remembering games in which his choices did not work. Baker also has games in which his choices did work and that has to be factored in as well. My friends and I have a running joke now the last two seasons. When the Cubs picked up Neifi I bashed the pick up and every time he comes into the game I boo. Unfortunately for me it seems like everytime I listen to the game and Baker brings in Neifi he gets a key hit. Because of it my friends always pick on me for that.

 

 

Yes we can go throughout the season and find plenty of games in which Dusty's choices led to an increase in the Cubs chances for a loss, but you can do that for every manager. Every manager makes moves that cost his team chances to win.

 

 

AS for Corey Patterson everybody likes to point to 2003 as if that was a year Corey accomplished something. He didn't it was his typical season. Have a good month, have a bad month, so on and so on. The only difference is that he got injured so his stats didn't have a chance to fall like they always do. AS for playing the #3 spot he wasn't even that good playing there, and if that is his best spot then he would be costing the Cubs run if they kept him there.

There is no doubt in my mind that Dusty cost us more games than he has won. The mere fact that he did not play the best players at their respective positions just because they were rookies cost us. Perez over Cedeno? Holla over Murton and Dubois? Even Perez over Walker and Hairston. Hawkins over Dempster in the closer role. His is a stubborn manager that cannot accept criticism. You point out his mistakes he will do one better and not change anything just to show you who is boss. He is that type of manager and thats the kind of manager we do not need.

[CarolinaCubFan]

Did Dusty cost us games? Sure he did. But you are only remembering games in which his choices did not work. Baker also has games in which his choices did work and that has to be factored in as well. My friends and I have a running joke now the last two seasons. When the Cubs picked up Neifi I bashed the pick up and every time he comes into the game I boo. Unfortunately for me it seems like everytime I listen to the game and Baker brings in Neifi he gets a key hit. Because of it my friends always pick on me for that.

 

 

Yes we can go throughout the season and find plenty of games in which Dusty's choices led to an increase in the Cubs chances for a loss, but you can do that for every manager. Every manager makes moves that cost his team chances to win.

 

 

AS for Corey Patterson everybody likes to point to 2003 as if that was a year Corey accomplished something. He didn't it was his typical season. Have a good month, have a bad month, so on and so on. The only difference is that he got injured so his stats didn't have a chance to fall like they always do. AS for playing the #3 spot he wasn't even that good playing there, and if that is his best spot then he would be costing the Cubs run if they kept him there.

 

It's not that Corrie should bat in the three spot, it's that Corrie needs some consistency. The only consistancy Baker has gave him has been he'll be in CF.

[Backtobanks]

I mentioned about 2 pages ago that I thought this team could have been 10 games better with a different manager. The way this team has played lately, it looks like those 10 games would put us at about .500 by the end of the season. I don't believe anyone didn't think that this was at least a .500 club at the beginning of the season, so I stand by my comment.

[cubbieinexile]

How is Perez over Cedeno costing this team victories? Is it better in terms of evaluating prospects? Yes but I don't think Cedeno's bat would be better then Perez.

 

Murton and Dubois over Hollandsworth wasn't likely to be anything great in terms of production.

[cubbieinexile]

I mentioned about 2 pages ago that I thought this team could have been 10 games better with a different manager. The way this team has played lately, it looks like those 10 games would put us at about .500 by the end of the season. I don't believe anyone didn't think that this was at least a .500 club at the beginning of the season, so I stand by my comment.

 

How many people would think we would be above .500 with Nomar on the DL for the entire year. Kerry barely playing, Prior with a broken arm, Aramis with his balky groin, and Todd Walker out for over a month?

 

If everyone stays healthy this team is an above .500 team.

[YearofDaCubs]

How is Perez over Cedeno costing this team victories? Is it better in terms of evaluating prospects? Yes but I don't think Cedeno's bat would be better then Perez.

 

Murton and Dubois over Hollandsworth wasn't likely to be anything great in terms of production.

Because your best players should be starting and that wasnt the case this year.

[JC]

I mentioned about 2 pages ago that I thought this team could have been 10 games better with a different manager. The way this team has played lately, it looks like those 10 games would put us at about .500 by the end of the season. I don't believe anyone didn't think that this was at least a .500 club at the beginning of the season, so I stand by my comment.

 

How many people would think we would be above .500 with Nomar on the DL for the entire year. Kerry barely playing, Prior with a broken arm, Aramis with his balky groin, and Todd Walker out for over a month?

 

If everyone stays healthy this team is an above .500 team.

 

This argument goes to the point I made in the other thread. Chipper Jones missed significant time on the DL, as did John Thompson and Mike Hampton. In fact, Hampton, Thompson and Hudson were all on the DL at the same time. Prior has made starts commensurate with Hudson.

 

In addition, the Braves lost Johnny Estrada to the DL for an extended period, and Kolb has sucked as a closer. Finally, Furcal was awful early in the year at leadoff.

 

I don't want to hear how bad the Cubs were hit by injuries. Every team gets injuries. Heck, look at Boston. Schilling, Foulke, Clement, Wells and Nixon have all seen time on the DL. Their bullpen was in shambles and got underwhelming production from one position player (Bellhorn) who was arguably worse than Corey.

 

The Mets have had injuries. The Marlins, too. Yet, they are still fighting it out.

[cubbieinexile]

But again how were they the best players? How is Cedeno the Cubs best SS option at the time? What has he shown that would lead a manager trying to win games this year to the conclusion that Cedeno was the best option?

 

How is Murton and Dubois the best option over Hollandsworth? Personally I would have ridden Murton's hot streak and let him play against the platoon a little bit more but I can also see why Dusty was a little skeptical of Murton's batting line. A lot (I don't know exactly how many) of Murton's hits were a little bit too fluky for. Squibbers and seeing eye grounds and so forth. It wasn't like he got that line by hitting rockets.

 

 

Best option theory:

1B: Check

2B: Check. When Walker was healthy he played 2nd.

3B: Check

RF: Check

C: Check

 

Positions where there is debate:

SS: With Nomar down the Cubs were screwed and nothing Dusty would have done here would have made people happy. Regardless of who he put out there he would have been second guessed.

CF: Now one could make the argument that Corey was the best option while others would say that he should have gone to Jerry.

LF: Another spot where the choices at his disposal were mediocre. I personally would have gone with the youngsters but he would be getting reamed for that too if he did that.

 

To me Dusty on a seasonal basis ran the best option out there in 7 of the positional spots. Which I'm willing to bet his pretty darn similar to most managers out there. The problem for Dusty is that he had a horrible bench which leaves a lot of room for second guessing. Because the bench was so bad it leaves open the door that some untested minor leaguer be a better option. That is partly Dusty's fault and partly Hendry's fault for assembling that bench and also for getting high risk starters without a proper backup plan in place.

[YearofDaCubs]

Dusty decides to put Hawkins back in the closers role in the beginning of the year when he clearly sucked. We knew this from last year. What exactly did Holla and Perez and Macias do to get all this playing time? Their stats looked horrible and it was obvious that starting the kids would have been a better option. I'm not just blaming Baker but dont think for a second he doesnt have a part in the season which tanked. Let's not get into last year where Dusty lost all control of HIS team. Dusty also does not hold his players accountable when they have ZERO fundamentals.

[cubbieinexile]

Mets, Marlins, and Braves all play in the same division. They all were struggling at the same time, which is why a dreadful Nationals team was able to be in first place for so long.

 

But again I'll ask the question. If someone told you in the beginning of the season that the Cubs starting SS was going to be Neifi Perez or someone of that caliber, that Kerry Wood would only get 10 starts and Mark Prior about 25 starts, that Todd Walker would miss about 50 games, and that Aramis would miss about 30 games and play with a gimpy groin for a good chunk of the season do you still think that this would be .500+ team?

 

 

As for Boston they have had Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek, Johnny Damon, Edgar Renteria, David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, and Kevin Millar basically healthy and productive for the entire season. You give the Cubs that lineup and you can have all kinds of problems with the pitching staff and they would still win a lot of games.

[YearofDaCubs]

Mets, Marlins, and Braves all play in the same division. They all were struggling at the same time, which is why a dreadful Nationals team was able to be in first place for so long.

 

But again I'll ask the question. If someone told you in the beginning of the season that the Cubs starting SS was going to be Neifi Perez or someone of that caliber, that Kerry Wood would only get 10 starts and Mark Prior about 25 starts, that Todd Walker would miss about 50 games, and that Aramis would miss about 30 games and play with a gimpy groin for a good chunk of the season do you still think that this would be .500+ team?

 

 

As for Boston they have had Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek, Johnny Damon, Edgar Renteria, David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, and Kevin Millar basically healthy and productive for the entire season. You give the Cubs that lineup and you can have all kinds of problems with the pitching staff and they would still win a lot of games.

Almost all those players on the Cubs you mentioned are injury prone and missed significant time last year. What does that tell you? We all knew the risks involved with injury prone players like Prior, Wood, Aramis, and Nomar. And so what if Walker was out for a significant amount of time when he was gone Hairston was playing very well. We were playing our best baseball when indeed Prior was out so I dont believe the injuries were that much of a factor. We plain out sucked. And now that we have everybody you can make a case that we are playing worse now than before. Our offense is terrible and so is our pitching.

[cubbieinexile]

Dusty decides to put Hawkins back in the closers role in the beginning of the year when he clearly sucked. We knew this from last year. What exactly did Holla and Perez and Macias do to get all this playing time? Their stats looked horrible and it was obvious that starting the kids would have been a better option. I'm not just blaming Baker but dont think for a second he doesnt have a part in the season which tanked. Let's not get into last year where Dusty lost all control of HIS team. Dusty also does not hold his players accountable when they have ZERO fundamentals.

 

Again though how is it obvious that the youngsters would have been better? Was Choi a better option, was Hill, was Brown?

[cubbieinexile]

Almost all those players on the Cubs you mentioned are injury prone and missed significant time last year. What does that tell you? We all knew the risks involved with injury prone players like Prior, Wood, Aramis, and Nomar. And so what if Walker was out for a significant amount of time when he was gone Hairston was playing very well. We were playing our best baseball when indeed Prior was out so I dont believe the injuries were that much of a factor. We plain out sucked. And now that we have everybody you can make a case that we are playing worse now than before. Our offense is terrible and so is our pitching.

 

So then does that mean the Cubs were never really truly a plus .500 team heading into this season?

[YearofDaCubs]

Dusty decides to put Hawkins back in the closers role in the beginning of the year when he clearly sucked. We knew this from last year. What exactly did Holla and Perez and Macias do to get all this playing time? Their stats looked horrible and it was obvious that starting the kids would have been a better option. I'm not just blaming Baker but dont think for a second he doesnt have a part in the season which tanked. Let's not get into last year where Dusty lost all control of HIS team. Dusty also does not hold his players accountable when they have ZERO fundamentals.

 

Again though how is it obvious that the youngsters would have been better? Was Choi a better option, was Hill, was Brown?

Who has the better numbers this year? It sure as heck isnt Holla and Perez. So whats your point? Look at my entire post its not just about playing the kids. There's more to the madness of Dusty Baker.

[Soul]

If common, every-day fans realized Dusty's incompetence months & months ago, and now respected baseball writers are starting to finally break their silence and call Dusty what he is, then I have a question for you all:

 

 

What does it say about Hendry & MacPhail that they still don't realize it?

 

The problems go higher than Dusty. Firing Dusty would be a good first move. How many of you, fully knowing that Hendry & MacPhail can't see the truth, have total confidence in the Cubs' ability to bring in a solid replacement? I know I don't. If they can't realize how bad Dusty is when the whole world knows it, then how are they going to recognize a *good* manager when they see one?

[Fro]

I think you can easily get 10 games out of just reducing the amount of boneheaded plays that cost games to a reasonable level, moving Hawkins to setup, and not hitting Patterson/Nefi 1-2.

 

Heck, assuming Hawkins doesn't have his slump and he takes the setup spot over the misfit crew of setup men we had before Wood/Williamson in the past month, you can get pretty close to 10 games right there alone.

[mul21]

It's not a debate of who should have been played because they were better in the case of Holla vs Dubois/Murton or Perez vs Cedeno. It's a case of the veteran being a proven commodity vs the rookies not having proven anything yet. Point being, you don't know if Cedeno and Murton are good options because they didn't get a chance. They may have torn up the league, they may have completely bombed. But not playing them because you have a veteran who has proven himself to be mediocre is dumb. I think the Cubs would be around .500 right now just based on numbers. But as someone referenced earlier, Smoltz said the young guys gave the vets a boost in Atlanta. Who's to say the same thing wouldn't have happened with the Cubs. People forget that momentum is a very powerful ally as well as a great enemy.

[Backtobanks]

Mets, Marlins, and Braves all play in the same division. They all were struggling at the same time, which is why a dreadful Nationals team was able to be in first place for so long.

 

But again I'll ask the question. If someone told you in the beginning of the season that the Cubs starting SS was going to be Neifi Perez or someone of that caliber, that Kerry Wood would only get 10 starts and Mark Prior about 25 starts, that Todd Walker would miss about 50 games, and that Aramis would miss about 30 games and play with a gimpy groin for a good chunk of the season do you still think that this would be .500+ team?

 

 

As for Boston they have had Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek, Johnny Damon, Edgar Renteria, David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, and Kevin Millar basically healthy and productive for the entire season. You give the Cubs that lineup and you can have all kinds of problems with the pitching staff and they would still win a lot of games.

 

I might still think they should be a .500 team if you told me that Lee was going to have a triple-crown type of year, that Zambrano would be as dominant as he has been, that Dempster would be as successful as he has been as closer, that Barrett would be the best offensive catcher in the NL, that Ramirez and Walker would have the type of years that they have had in spite of missing games, and that the Cubs would have the luxury of platooning (and then sending down) a player hitting about .360 with an OBP of about .450.