All Star Starters announced

[gus_dog]

I found this in another thread, but it makes more sense here:

 

Lets compare him to Carpenter

 

Clemens: 1.48 ERA

Carpenter: 2.51 ERA

 

Clemens: 0.95 WHIP

Carpenter: 1.07 WHIP

 

 

Clemens: .188 BAA

Carpenter: .225 BAA

 

Carpenter has a slight edge in K/9 and K/BB. I would still start Clemens, mainly because he is the first pitcher in a long time to have an ERA this low this far into the season...

[wolf stansson]

FWIW - Piazza is the starting catcher. Not only is there the well documented volatile relationship between him and Clemens, but he can't throw anybody out. Carpenter has only allowed 1 SB as a Cardinal. Willis is one of only two (I think) lefties and will be used for a matchup later probably, and will definitely be in the game when LoDuca is catching.

[gus_dog]

FWIW - Piazza is the starting catcher. Not only is there the well documented volatile relationship between him and Clemens, but he can't throw anybody out.

 

Piazza has been hitting well lately, but man, he is a seriously awful catcher.

[somechick]

FWIW - Piazza is the starting catcher. Not only is there the well documented volatile relationship between him and Clemens, but he can't throw anybody out. Carpenter has only allowed 1 SB as a Cardinal. Willis is one of only two (I think) lefties and will be used for a matchup later probably, and will definitely be in the game when LoDuca is catching.

 

Um, ok, so because stupid fans voted in a craptacular catcher, the best pitcher should be penalized for that? I mean, I understand this desire to try and justify why Carpenter should start, but the logic behind these arguments are seriously flawed. I hate Clemens with a passion and would rather spend tomorrow night skinning myself with a dull razor than watch his fat butt pitch in the game, but I am not so blind as to be unable to admit he been the best pitcher this year and deserves to start.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Let's look at the numbers of the three most deserving to start.

 

W/L Record:

Clemens 7-3

Carpenter: 13-4

Willis: 13-4

 

ERA

Clemens: 1.48

Carpenter: 2.57

Willis: 2.39

 

WHIP

Clemens: 0.95

Carpenter: 1.07

Willis: 1.14

 

BAA

Clemens: .188

Carpenter: .225

Willis: .252

 

In every category other than wins, Clemens blows away the competiton. While he has six wins fewer, he also has one fewer loss. Willis also has the same record as Carpenter and a lower ERA. Carpenter beats Willis in WHIP and BAA.

 

I think what is clear is that while all three would be deserving, Clemens should have received the start. Carpenter's numbers are good enough that TLR can choose him without looking as if he is blatently over looking better options, but make no mistake about it. No matter how you spin it, Carpenter did not deserve to start over Clemens. He is clearly the beneficiary of the luck of having his manager be the manager of the game. Clemens is clearly the best. After that, it's a toss-up between Willis and Carpenter.

[Roast]

And milk, i'm not carried away.

 

Yes, you are.

 

Wins, really, have nothing to do with the pitcher

 

Come now. Are you saying the pitcher has no impact in the game whatsoever? I understand that as a stand alone stat, win's are more a measure of the team's preformance than the individual pitcher's. But, the team's preformance (W-L record) is a reflection of the preformance of the Batting and the Pitching. You cannot say that it has nothing to do with the pitcher. It's completely absurd to say so.

 

while pitching well can certainly help a pitchers chance of getting a W, for the most part, the W department is up to the offense. The pitcher can give up 32 runs. If the offense scores 33, then he still gets a win. I was exaggerating when saying has NOTHING to do with it, i guess. But for the most part, it has more to do with offense then pitching. How else do you explain Estes last year.

[Mark_R]

And milk, i'm not carried away.

 

Yes, you are.

 

Wins, really, have nothing to do with the pitcher

 

Come now. Are you saying the pitcher has no impact in the game whatsoever? I understand that as a stand alone stat, win's are more a measure of the team's preformance than the individual pitcher's. But, the team's preformance (W-L record) is a reflection of the preformance of the Batting and the Pitching. You cannot say that it has nothing to do with the pitcher. It's completely absurd to say so.

 

while pitching well can certainly help a pitchers chance of getting a W, for the most part, the W department is up to the offense. The pitcher can give up 32 runs. If the offense scores 33, then he still gets a win. I was exaggerating when saying has NOTHING to do with it, i guess. But for the most part, it has more to do with offense then pitching. How else do you explain Estes last year.

 

I'd say that the Estes scenario from last season is more the exception. Pitchers do usually have to pitch at the very least decent to get that many wins (simply because of potentially losing rotation spots, not going 5 innings, etc) Also Jeriome Robertson in 2003 was a huge exception with 15 wins and an ERA over 5.

 

At this point, I don't believe he's in the majors.

[genghiskhan]

FWIW - Piazza is the starting catcher. Not only is there the well documented volatile relationship between him and Clemens, but he can't throw anybody out. Carpenter has only allowed 1 SB as a Cardinal. Willis is one of only two (I think) lefties and will be used for a matchup later probably, and will definitely be in the game when LoDuca is catching.

 

 

This is the explanation, I think. Perhaps if it were Lo Duca or Ramon Hernandez as the starting catcher, we see Clemens. But LaRussa is playing this game to win, and if he thinks he needs to put Carpenter on the mound while rag-arm Mike Piazza is out there as the starting catcher, that's what he'll do.

 

Plus, it doesn't freaking matter. They'll both pitch anyway.

[ChiblueTNT]

They both deserve to start.

 

no, they don't.

 

i'm fine with buehrle.

clemens is being punished for 2 reasons

1. he's started before

2. larussa playing favorites

 

carpenter has no business starting this game.

 

1. It can be debated. With 7 wins, I don't believe he should be the starter. His other #s support him, so I see your point. I don't agree, but that's because I think that Wins are an important stat. That, and Clemens got shelled in last years game.

Of the other 2 pitchers, Carpenter has as many or more wins, more Ks a slightly higher ERA and lower WHIP. You can make a case for Clemens, but to say that Tony is playing favorites is a weak leg to stand on. Tony had 1 pick to make to fill out his squad, and he didn't pick a Cardinal.

W K ERA WHIP

Roger Clemens 7 112 1.48 0.95

Roy Oswalt 12 118 2.39 1.08

Dontrelle Willis 13 95 2.39 1.14

Chris Carpenter 13 128 2.51 1.07

 

Joe Morgan is that you? Wins mean jack to pitchers. Anyone who tells you differently is a Cards fan.

[ChiblueTNT]

They both deserve to start.

 

no, they don't.

 

i'm fine with buehrle.

clemens is being punished for 2 reasons

1. he's started before

2. larussa playing favorites

 

carpenter has no business starting this game.

 

1. It can be debated. With 7 wins, I don't believe he should be the starter. His other #s support him, so I see your point. I don't agree, but that's because I think that Wins are an important stat. That, and Clemens got shelled in last years game.

Of the other 2 pitchers, Carpenter has as many or more wins, more Ks a slightly higher ERA and lower WHIP. You can make a case for Clemens, but to say that Tony is playing favorites is a weak leg to stand on. Tony had 1 pick to make to fill out his squad, and he didn't pick a Cardinal.

W K ERA WHIP

Roger Clemens 7 112 1.48 0.95

Roy Oswalt 12 118 2.39 1.08

Dontrelle Willis 13 95 2.39 1.14

Chris Carpenter 13 128 2.51 1.07

 

Sweet lord.

 

Wins are NOT an important stat for pitchers. How is it his fault that his team does not produce for him. Out of that group Clemens has the lowest ERA and the lowest WHIP. Those are important stats for pitchers. Wins, really, have nothing to do with the pitcher. A pitcher could go out and throw a perfect game every single time, but not win a single game. His team has to put up runs for him.

 

So when a pitcher wins his 300th game it's not a big deal?

I see your point, but to fans of the game outside of the statheads (guilty as charged) wins are an important stat. Sure, they're kind of like RBIs in that you have to have guys on base to drive in.

You could pick any of those 4 pitchers and have arguments for the other 3. Bottom line, the Cards have the best record in the NL, Carp is the ace of the staff, and Tony is the Cards manager. If he had picked anyone other than Carp, he would have had hell to pay in St. Louis. And what kind of message would that have been to send to his team.

 

Yes, it isnt a big deal. Case and Point = Greg Maddux. If he would have never went to the Braves he probably wouldnt be close to 300, and his ERA would have been higher. He would have still been a great pitcher, but never would have gotten the big 300. See how that works?

[indifferent]

From STL Today on pitching order and Lee/Pujols:

 

Duncan, the NL pitching coach, said Carpenter, like the other pitchers, would work just one inning and that closer Jason Isringhausen, who has 25 saves in 27 opportunities, may not be used at all. La Russa said Isringhausen, who had a tough ninth inning in San Francisco on Sunday, had some stiffness, and Duncan said Isringhausen really hadn't expressed strong interest in pitching anyway.

 

"We've used him an awful lot," Duncan said.

 

With that in mind, Duncan said Houston fireballer Brad Lidge probably would be the closer.

 

Following Carpenter in order, Duncan said, will be Atlanta's John Smoltz, Houston's Roy Oswalt and Roger Clemens, Washington's Livan Hernandez and Florida's Dontrelle Willis. The last three innings then probably would go to relievers Chad Cordero of Washington, Billy Wagner of Philadelphia and Lidge.

 

San Diego starter Jake Peavy, a manager's selection to the team, would be held back for extra innings, and Colorado lefthander Brian Fuentes, also chosen by La Russa because the Rockies had to have a player, probably will be a one-batter pitcher or not pitch at all.

 

 

 

La Russa was taken aback a bit at the All-Star press conference Monday when former California Angels owner Jackie Autry, the honorary American League president, toasted the World Series champion Boston Red Sox, whose Terry Francona, is the American League manager. Autry said, "I think everyone in the United States was rooting for the underdog, the Boston Red Sox, so it was really fun and exciting for all of us."

 

"That falls in that clueless category," La Russa muttered later. "When she said 'everybody in the nation,' I should have said, 'Well, there's another nation.'"

 

But he merely smiled.

 

La Russa, who introduced the pitcher batting eighth in the second half of the season in 1998, is expected to waive his team's designated hitter privileges halfway through tonight's game to protect Chicago Cubs first baseman Derrek Lee, who hurt his left shoulder last week.

 

"I would think the trainers and the Cubs would want three at-bats tops for Derrek," La Russa said.

 

La Russa has only one other first baseman on his club in Pujols, who will be serving as the designated hitter at the start of the game. He said Pujols probably will move from the DH slot to first base later in the game, meaning that the pitcher, in theory, would have to bat in the DH spot in this American League-style game at Comerica Park.

 

But La Russa has plenty of pinch hitters available to hit the one or two times the pitcher would have to bat - including the likes of Carlos Lee of Milwaukee, Luis Gonzalez of Arizona and Jason Bay of Pittsburgh, all reserve outfielders. He admitted, however, "Another first baseman would have been a good add (to his team)."

[bleed_blue]

The cards starting five have 50 wins among them.

 

I think Larussa can pick anyone he wants. Carpenter is representing the best in the league and lets face it their staff is the best.