1B-3B tandem

[The G-Man]

I'm asking this question b/c I believe that the Cubs 1B-3B tandem of Lee-Ramirez is better than the Cardinals "Pujols"-Rolen tandem, yet the Cubs guys get a lot less attention.

[Omar]

Dude... you're asking a die-hard Cubs forum...

 

http://tatoos-tattos.com/tatoos/tatoos-pictures/tatoos-dude.jpg

[TruffleShuffle]

Someone else vote for Pujols-Rolen so that my vote isn't the only one in their column. :oops:

 

 

Sorry, but I have to be objective. Rolen, I think, is still slightly better than Ramirez when healthy, especially when you factor in his defense. This year aside, Pujols is better than Lee, even though Lee is considerably better defensively, it doesn't make up for a 150 or so point difference in OPS+.

[Knightlife_in_Lubbock]

No third option? A-Rod and Tino/Giambi??

[Roast]

Are you kidding? Thats not even close.

 

If the cards GM came up to me and proposed a Lee + Aram for Pujols + Rolen trade, strait up. I'd do it before He could finish his sentance. Lee is on FIRE this year, His numbers are amazing, but this is what Pujols does every year. Aram is much improved in defense, and a very very dangerous hitter. But Rolens defense is still far above his, and his offense is killer, as well.

[The G-Man]

No third option? A-Rod and Tino/Giambi??

It was meant to be b/t the Cubs and Cardinals.

[The G-Man]

I think that Lee is a more balanced player than Pujols. All Pujols can do is swing for the fences. Lee can do that and hit for a higher average than Pujols, he has more speed, and has better defense. Ramirez and Rolen are pretty even. Theire bats are the same, but Rolen does have a slightly better defense, although Ramirez is only 26. Last year, Ramirez had only 62 strikeouts, hit like .320, and would've been a 40 HR, 120 RBI had he not missed 2 weeks w/ a bad groin.

[T2E]

I think that Lee is a more balanced player than Pujols. All Pujols can do is swing for the fences. Lee can do that and hit for a higher average than Pujols, he has more speed, and has better defense. Ramirez and Rolen are pretty even. Theire bats are the same, but Rolen does have a slightly better defense, although Ramirez is only 26. Last year, Ramirez had only 62 strikeouts, hit like .320, and would've been a 40 HR, 120 RBI had he not missed 2 weeks w/ a bad groin.

 

Career AVG:

Pujols- .334

Lee- .275

 

Excluding this year, Pujols has been a better hitter for average. Saying "All Pujols can do is swing for the fences" is an uninformed and very biased remark.

 

Ramirez/Lee have been superior this season, but Rolen/Pujols have been better in the past and are a better bet in the future.

[vaball]

Career defensive statistics at 1st base:

 

Player A: FPCT-.994 RF-9.21 ZR-.862

Player B: FPCT-.993 RF-10.33 ZR-.892

 

Career Hitting:

 

Player A: .275/.362/.494/.856

Player B: .334/.415/.621/1.036

 

Player B is significantly better in each category than player A except for FPCT. Which would you pick? It's not even close.

 

Career defensive statistics at 3rd base:

Player A: FPCT-.944 RF-2.61 ZR-.735

Player B: FPCT-.966 RF-2.92 ZR-.804

 

Career Hitting:

Player A: .276/.327/.475/.802

Player B: .285/.377/.518/.895

 

Player B is significantly better in every category. Again, it's not even close.

[WrigleyField 22]

Pujols- Ramirez :D

Forget that how about 1B-Lee 3B-Ramirez LF-Pujols, basically what I have in MVP except Blalock instead of Ramirez.

 

Also whats up with Pujols being in quotations??

[T2E]

Career defensive statistics at 1st base:

 

Player A: FPCT-.994 RF-9.21 ZR-.862

Player B: FPCT-.993 RF-10.33 ZR-.892

 

Career Hitting:

 

Player A: .275/.362/.494/.856

Player B: .334/.415/.621/1.036

 

Player B is significantly better in each category than player A except for FPCT. Which would you pick? It's not even close.

 

Not to start an arguement here (I agree that Pujols has been and probably will be the better player), but I don't think FPCT, RF and ZR are good statistics for judging first basemen. Lee's RF is low because he has played on teams that have pitchers who strike out a large number of batters. Those statistics also neglect the fact that Lee is one of the best in the business at digging out balls in the dirt and is fantastic at making the play to second base. Pujols is a good first baseman defensively, but I don't see how you can rate him above Lee.

[vaball]

Career defensive statistics at 1st base:

 

Player A: FPCT-.994 RF-9.21 ZR-.862

Player B: FPCT-.993 RF-10.33 ZR-.892

 

Career Hitting:

 

Player A: .275/.362/.494/.856

Player B: .334/.415/.621/1.036

 

Player B is significantly better in each category than player A except for FPCT. Which would you pick? It's not even close.

 

Not to start an arguement here (I agree that Pujols has been and probably will be the better player), but I don't think FPCT, RF and ZR are good statistics for judging first basemen. Lee's RF is low because he has played on teams that have pitchers who strike out a large number of batters. Those statistics also neglect the fact that Lee is one of the best in the business at digging out balls in the dirt and is fantastic at making the play to second base. Pujols is a good first baseman defensively, but I don't see how you can rate him above Lee.

 

You're right about FPCT and RF not being super important for first baseman. Still, they are some available criteria we can use to compare players. ZR is a better statistic in this case. I do not assert that Pujols is a better first baseman than Lee. What I am saying is that Lee is not that much better than Pujols. Fans who watch Pujols play first every day see that he digs balls out of the dirt with the best of them, and that he has a very good infield arm and can make great throws to any base at the right times. This is only Pujols' second year playing first so he is still imrpoving at the position. I know this sounds like sheer homerism to Cubs fans, but Pujols may well win a gold glove at 1st some day, and not because of his offense.

[wolf stansson]

I think that Lee is a more balanced player than Pujols. All Pujols can do is swing for the fences. Lee can do that and hit for a higher average than Pujols, he has more speed, and has better defense.

It is safe to say that that is the single most ignorant, unreasearched, biased, moronic, and just plain wrong sentences I have ever read.

 

Albert Pujols has received acclaim as being the best hitter in baseball by being so disciplined at the plate. He is basically a line drive/gap hitter who is strong enough to line about 45 into the stands a year. Last year he hit 46 homeruns and struck out only 52 times ( :shock: ).

Does that sound like someone swinging for the fences?

 

Also, Derrek is a great fielder, but Albert will surprise you guys. He is a very very good fielder.

[Brian]

To those saying you would trade for Rolen/Pujols straight up with Ramirez/Lee. You forget that as soon as they put on COB uniforms Rolen's bat will forevor look like it did in the WS and he will suddenly be an error machine, and Pujols leg will fall off, and he'll be DL'ed for 5.5 years out of the 6 the Cubs pay him. Than Pujols would sign back with the Cardinals (to a very nomar esque 8mill deal) and hit .443 with a .840OBP, and 83 HR.

 

And during Pujols magical season, Jim Edmonds has signed a huge contract with the Yankees, and held out for so long the Cardinals had no chance to sign some one else. they take a chance on a guy that's been bouncing around AAA teams across the country. he hits .325 with .499OBP and 84SB, at the lead-off spot, his name = Corey Patterson.

 

*Note some numbers are slightly exagerated, but knowing Cub luck vs. Cardinal Luck stuff like this would happen.

[imb]

my idiot self likes Ramirez more than Rolen. Maybe it's because Rolen's bat has been asleep for the last 9 months, but whatever.

[XZero771679666304]

Career defensive statistics at 1st base:

 

Player A: FPCT-.994 RF-9.21 ZR-.862

Player B: FPCT-.993 RF-10.33 ZR-.892

 

Career Hitting:

 

Player A: .275/.362/.494/.856

Player B: .334/.415/.621/1.036

 

Player B is significantly better in each category than player A except for FPCT. Which would you pick? It's not even close.

 

Not to start an arguement here (I agree that Pujols has been and probably will be the better player), but I don't think FPCT, RF and ZR are good statistics for judging first basemen. Lee's RF is low because he has played on teams that have pitchers who strike out a large number of batters. Those statistics also neglect the fact that Lee is one of the best in the business at digging out balls in the dirt and is fantastic at making the play to second base. Pujols is a good first baseman defensively, but I don't see how you can rate him above Lee.

 

You're right about FPCT and RF not being super important for first baseman. Still, they are some available criteria we can use to compare players. ZR is a better statistic in this case. I do not assert that Pujols is a better first baseman than Lee. What I am saying is that Lee is not that much better than Pujols. Fans who watch Pujols play first every day see that he digs balls out of the dirt with the best of them, and that he has a very good infield arm and can make great throws to any base at the right times. This is only Pujols' second year playing first so he is still imrpoving at the position. I know this sounds like sheer homerism to Cubs fans, but Pujols may well win a gold glove at 1st some day, and not because of his offense.

 

Pujols is a better player than Lee, no doubt of that. But I will say that Pujols isn't, and barring catatstrophic injury, never will be a better defender than Lee.

[vaball]

 

Pujols is a better player than Lee, no doubt of that. But I will say that Pujols isn't, and barring catatstrophic injury, never will be a better defender than Lee.

 

I know gut feeling is to think of Lee as far and away a better defensive first baseman. All I can say is look at the numbers.

[XZero771679666304]

 

Pujols is a better player than Lee, no doubt of that. But I will say that Pujols isn't, and barring catatstrophic injury, never will be a better defender than Lee.

 

I know gut feeling is to think of Lee as far and away a better defensive first baseman. All I can say is look at the numbers.

 

Defensive stats are usually deceptive. All I can say is watch them play. Lee is just better, it has nothing to do with gut feeling. Also Lee has an advantage over Pujols: sheer size. He can pick and stretch for balls that Albert can't and never will be able to get to. Derreks combination of size and quickness is something that Albert can never match. That's not to denegrate Pujols, but unless he turns into Stretch Armstrong, that's just the way it will always be.

 

Back to the stats; they tell us that Rafael Palmeiro and Paul Konerko have more range than Todd Helton and Derrek Lee, wich is ludicrous. They also tell us that Eric Hinske and Phil Nevin, who are statuesque at best, have a higher ZR than Pujols. Or how about this one: Jim Edmonds is 11th in ZR and 13th in RF. Do you buy what that says? And Rolen is waaaaaaay down the list in all three defensive percentage stats, even though he is the best defensive 3B there is. Even in 2004 and 2003 Rolen trailed many inferior defenders in all three categories. Did you know Aramis had more range in 2003 (his worst defensive season) than Rolen? That what the stats say. And that Andruw Jones, who has more range in CF than anyone on earth, is 14th in RF?

 

I could do this all day. I think the implication is crystal clear, though. The stats are completely unreliable. Quantifying defensive prowess statistically has yet to be done with any kind of accuracy. You don't need a slide rule and calculator to know that Lee is a better defender than Pujols, just the same as you know Rolen is better than those many ahead of him statistically.

[vaball]

 

Pujols is a better player than Lee, no doubt of that. But I will say that Pujols isn't, and barring catatstrophic injury, never will be a better defender than Lee.

 

I know gut feeling is to think of Lee as far and away a better defensive first baseman. All I can say is look at the numbers.

 

Defensive stats are usually deceptive. All I can say is watch them play. Lee is just better, it has nothing to do with gut feeling. Also Lee has an advantage over Pujols: sheer size. He can pick and stretch for balls that Albert can't and never will be able to get to. Derreks combination of size and quickness is something that Albert can never match. That's not to denegrate Pujols, but unless he turns into Stretch Armstrong, that's just the way it will always be.

 

Back to the stats; they tell us that Rafael Palmeiro and Paul Konerko have more range than Todd Helton and Derrek Lee, wich is ludicrous. They also tell us that Eric Hinske and Phil Nevin, who are statuesque at best, have a higher ZR than Pujols. Or how about this one: Jim Edmonds is 11th in ZR and 13th in RF. Do you buy what that says? And Rolen is waaaaaaay down the list in all three defensive percentage stats, even though he is the best defensive 3B there is. Even in 2004 and 2003 Rolen trailed many inferior defenders in all three categories. Did you know Aramis had more range in 2003 (his worst defensive season) than Rolen? That what the stats say. And that Andruw Jones, who has more range in CF than anyone on earth, is 14th in RF?

 

I could do this all day. I think the implication is crystal clear, though. The stats are completely unreliable. Quantifying defensive prowess statistically has yet to be done with any kind of accuracy. You don't need a slide rule and calculator to know that Lee is a better defender than Pujols, just the same as you know Rolen is better than those many ahead of him statistically.

 

Well argued. I must concede the point. Pujols is still a much better defender than people give him credit for, though.