Sale traded to Red Sox for Moncada, Kopech +

[Cubswin11]

Those playoff numbers against righties looked better before the WS though. He fell apart there, but Kluber was carving up everyone. Either way, I think lost in the concern over his performance against righties is how good he was against lefties. He was .311/.375/.475 with a 124 wRC+ and .359 wOBA.

 

And he's on a roster that has Schwarber, who had a .481 OPS and 31 wRC+ against lefties in 2015 and Heyward, whose has wRC+ of 82 for his career against lefties and had a 62 last year. If Schwarber isn't at least league average Javy is a better option and I'd say Javy is a proven better option than Heyward all the time against lefties.

 

Then Jon Jay, who doesn't have much of a platoon problem, but he's not 124 wRC+ good against them. So even if Javy doesn't carve out more time against righties, I'd say Javy has a lot of value to the team. But thennnnn if maybe he does improve against righties...

Right.... I would like to say I'm not "anti-javy," I think he has clear value and a use on this team (as you just illustrated above with him subbing for Heyward/Schwarbs vs LHP and Zobrist going to the OF). It's just that I think it stops at anything more than a platoon player vs LHP and late inning defensive/base running sub. I am extremely skeptical of him being able to do anything vs RHP moving forward and being more of a full-time guy. Sure if we have the luxury of a big division lead again this year in the 2nd half go wild with him seeing RHP every day for 2-3 weeks, I just think it's not a good plan to plan on him playing a lot more this year vs RHP and expecting him give us a lot of value/contribute to wins offensively.

[toonsterwu]

Also, it is absolutely time to shove Baez in their face in return for Quintana.

Or does this deal give us the framework for rough value for Archer? Javy, Eloy, Cease, Underwood and whoever they like best of Jeimer/Zagunis/Caritini?

 

Or what about Javy for Eduardo Rodriguez? Or what would it take for Rodriguez now that there's an additional rotation piece in Boston?

 

Eduardo Rodriguez finished the year strong. I forget the numbers, but he was real good after he got his break to heal early in the year.

 

My guess is that he ends up the 5th starter, and they dump Buchholz, but who knows.

 

_____

 

As for the trade, I'm of two minds.

 

a) The value isn't that egregious. Sale was in his prime, with 3 years of control left. It was going to cost a top guy. The fact that they saved Groome and Devers is solid. I have never loved Kopech. Love the heat, but still feel he's destined for the pen. This isn't to say that the White Sox didn't get a great deal. They did, but value wise, it isn't that egregious.

 

b) That said ... their rotation wasn't bad. Moncada could've helped this year, perhaps. A young core with the addition on Moncada to the that group would've given them a longer championship window. They basically went all-in on 2017 and 2018. They look great, so obviously, it might work out.

[Thrilho]

Those playoff numbers against righties looked better before the WS though. He fell apart there, but Kluber was carving up everyone. Either way, I think lost in the concern over his performance against righties is how good he was against lefties. He was .311/.375/.475 with a 124 wRC+ and .359 wOBA.

 

And he's on a roster that has Schwarber, who had a .481 OPS and 31 wRC+ against lefties in 2015 and Heyward, whose has wRC+ of 82 for his career against lefties and had a 62 last year. If Schwarber isn't at least league average Javy is a better option and I'd say Javy is a proven better option than Heyward all the time against lefties.

 

Then Jon Jay, who doesn't have much of a platoon problem, but he's not 124 wRC+ good against them. So even if Javy doesn't carve out more time against righties, I'd say Javy has a lot of value to the team. But thennnnn if maybe he does improve against righties...

Right.... I would like to say I'm not "anti-javy," I think he has clear value and a use on this team (as you just illustrated above with him subbing for Heyward/Schwarbs vs LHP and Zobrist going to the OF). It's just that I think it stops at anything more than a platoon player vs LHP and late inning defensive/base running sub. I am extremely skeptical of him being able to do anything vs RHP moving forward and being more of a full-time guy. Sure if we have the luxury of a big division lead again this year in the 2nd half go wild with him seeing RHP every day for 2-3 weeks, I just think it's not a good plan to plan on him playing a lot more this year vs RHP and give us a lot of value/contribute to wins offensively.

 

Yeah, the matter of how much he'll improve vs right handed pitching and how quickly is totally a matter of opinion. We've all seen the same games and data, so it'll shake itself out in time. But for this year I'm sort of off my kick of needing/wanting him to play 5 days a week right out of the gate. With Schwarber back and it being clear that the plan is not to play Heyward in center the ABs may just not be there. Especially if Zobrist wants to get close to his 147 games from 2016.

 

Despite my proclamations during the playoffs about Javy being ready for a full time job, I more meant for Soler to get out of his way and that I personally expect that Javy does earn more time. If he's not playing because Zobrist and Schwarbs are hitting and the team doesn't want JHey in center then so be it. He'll have plenty of time to develop against righties when he gets in.

[toonsterwu]

TL;DR good for the Sox getting an elite guy rather than making something like the Washington for quantity

 

The Washington rumor wasn't just quantity, though. I mean, Giolito still has frontline stuff, and Robles could be special. Still wonder if he might have a bit more pop, and if he did, that's a possible top overall prospect type of talent. I think the difference, in the end, was probably that the White Sox wanted a positional asset that was closer to the majors than a pitcher (Robles probably needs a couple more years in the minors), and that the White Sox had better pitching depth relatively speaking.

 

As for the Nationals, if they wanted Trea Turner along with Giolito AND Robles ... good for them for backing away. That would've been insane to do.

[Aaron_Kennelly]

The Javy platoon splits mean little to mean for several reasons. For one, he's amazing with his glove. Sure, maybe his versatility isn't needed as much with a healthy Schwarber in the outfield. But, if he is playing mostly at second, he'd still have to be really bad with the bat to not have some value at second. Continually harping on his splits against righties is ignoring a couple of things: the fact that he mashes lefties, that he still gets to play defense when he is playing against righties, that he is a fantastic base runner, that he was able to run a high BABIP because he can do things like bunting for hits and beating out infield hits, that he was 23 last year, that he's already changed himself to improve as a ballplayer, that he has always had a ton of potential and was always known to be a work in progress. The list goes on and on. I'm rolling the dice with Javy. I still think the sky is the limit with him. There's obviously some ugly stuff there. You'd have to be blind not to see it. But that ugly stuff didn't keep him from being a 3-win player that was a big part of this team last year. I can't wait to see what he'll do next year.

[Aaron_Kennelly]

I should clarify a little. It's not that I don't think those things are important. Rather, I think, "Yeah, those things are currently holding him back from being a superstar." I don't think they are fatal flaws. And I think there is hope that he can fix them. But, even if he doesn't fix them, I still love what he adds to this team and think he's a fine ballplayer.

[Thrilho]

TL;DR good for the Sox getting an elite guy rather than making something like the Washington for quantity

 

The Washington rumor wasn't just quantity, though. I mean, Giolito still has frontline stuff, and Robles could be special. Still wonder if he might have a bit more pop, and if he did, that's a possible top overall prospect type of talent. I think the difference, in the end, was probably that the White Sox wanted a positional asset that was closer to the majors than a pitcher (Robles probably needs a couple more years in the minors), and that the White Sox had better pitching depth relatively speaking.

 

As for the Nationals, if they wanted Trea Turner along with Giolito AND Robles ... good for them for backing away. That would've been insane to do.

I hadn't seen what the Nats deal what exactly but I figured something like Robles and Giolito plus with no Turner. And it's not a total lack of quality, but the quality is split between two players who each have warts. Robles had an almost identical wOBA to Eloy at the same level while being 6 months younger. And that's with 22 HBP elevating Robles' OBP to .400 while having a roughly equal BB rate to Eloy. I don't know a lot about the two defensively or swing wise, but I'd take Eloy over Robles fairly handily as a layperson.

 

Then Giolito is a post-TJ pitcher. Contrast that package with Moncada and I'd much rather have the certainty of one very likely top notch positional talent than any deal where a significant portion of the value is a pitcher or where it's dependent on a corner outfielder as far away as Robles (or Eloy) is.