Week 2 Eagles (1-0) @ Bears (0-1), MNF 7:30 ESPN/780

[David]

i know it looks bleak, and i know the picks were controversial, at best, at the time, but let's at least give them more than 2 NFL games played before declaring him JA with 1st rounders.

[WrigleyField 22]

Its too early to re-blow it up, is the unfortunate truth. Pace kind of just did that. Just in a slow White Soxish way, instead of setting a torch to it, like Theo. For continuity alone, you kind of need to let Pace see this horsefeathers through. If for no other reason than it could scare off potential good hires next go round, if they think going in, that their leash is THIS short. After Emery, it'd suck to can another guy this fast.

 

I really wanted to give Pace the benefit of the doubt. Hell, let him fire Fox. I don't care. But Goony is 1000% right. He's not a good drafter. And we definitively need that. I guess I'd give him a 3rd year, but I'd expect to suck next year too. With the slight hope of hitting on a top 5 pick this upcoming draft and letting the new guy make the following one.

 

To me, the only silver lining is that if you bring in the right group, there's really no such thing as a rebuild in the NFL. If Pace were good, we'd be a true playoff contender right now. We aren't, and he isn't. Time to sell off what we can and I really wish it'd be for 2018 picks, since I don't see us firing Pace until then.

Kind of to your point, its really hard to prove one way or the other how someone drafts 18 games in. 32 games we may be able to make a little better determination, but you also probably didn't hire a 37 year old GM thinking the guy you hired was the guy that brought you a Super Bowl, figuratively speaking. You are expecting growth. And yea, if you just move on every year or two, you're just the Browns.

 

I wouldn't expect them to move on from him, and I'm okay with that, while also being critical of his misteps. He needs to just pour resources into both lines.

 

At the very least, he has followed through on turning over the roster with youth, something Emery only talked about.

[WrigleyField 22]

No, I don't really think it was bad luck. And I don't really agree that the problem is a lack of organization philosophy. It seems fairly obvious they were going for a younger, faster defense and counting on a solid run game with the occasional deep threat, a standard play not to lose mentality.

 

the problem is talent at key positions. The offensive tackles suck, the defense cannot rush the passer.

 

Pace, whose history is in scouting guys already in the NFL, has not been a good drafter, and frankly I have no reason to believe he was capable of making a better hire than Fox. He looked for stability.

If there is one encouranging thing about Pace's drafting, its been his picks outside the first round, as well as UDFAs. But you can't swing and miss on multiple top ten picks. Not that its too late for them to turn it around, but eaely returns are not promising, and there was plenty or criticism at the time so its not just 20/20 second guessing.

 

Regarding his coaching pick. Yea, he went safe.

 

Pro personnel? He did a good job at his two ILB pickups. Outside of that... pretty meh over both years.

 

Isn't that basically the exact same flaw as Angelo? Good with late round picks, terrible with high picks.

Well early on JA hit with mid round picks and that turned out to be pretty short lived. I think most GMs who stick.at it long enough will go through relative spurts and dry spells in the middle rounds. A big part of JAs problem I think ended up being how he valued picks, trading them away for poor returns; giving the Bears less opportunity and magnifying his misses. Part of that probably also had to do with Lovies increased power and favoring vets over youth.

[UK]

Anyone think it was bad luck for Pace to have Fox fall in his lap? He built this roster around the HC who probably was not his 1st pick but couldn't pass up the chance to get him. At this point, I'm for blowing it up again and developing an organizational philosophy followed by everyone. This thing is too disjointed and that starts from above Pace.

No, I don't really think it was bad luck. And I don't really agree that the problem is a lack of organization philosophy. It seems fairly obvious they were going for a younger, faster defense and counting on a solid run game with the occasional deep threat, a standard play not to lose mentality.

 

the problem is talent at key positions. The offensive tackles suck, the defense cannot rush the passer.

 

Pace, whose history is in scouting guys already in the NFL, has not been a good drafter, and frankly I have no reason to believe he was capable of making a better hire than Fox. He looked for stability.

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

[David]

Anyone think it was bad luck for Pace to have Fox fall in his lap? He built this roster around the HC who probably was not his 1st pick but couldn't pass up the chance to get him. At this point, I'm for blowing it up again and developing an organizational philosophy followed by everyone. This thing is too disjointed and that starts from above Pace.

No, I don't really think it was bad luck. And I don't really agree that the problem is a lack of organization philosophy. It seems fairly obvious they were going for a younger, faster defense and counting on a solid run game with the occasional deep threat, a standard play not to lose mentality.

 

the problem is talent at key positions. The offensive tackles suck, the defense cannot rush the passer.

 

Pace, whose history is in scouting guys already in the NFL, has not been a good drafter, and frankly I have no reason to believe he was capable of making a better hire than Fox. He looked for stability.

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

 

isn't that just the status quo in the NFL?

[WrigleyField 22]

Anyone think it was bad luck for Pace to have Fox fall in his lap? He built this roster around the HC who probably was not his 1st pick but couldn't pass up the chance to get him. At this point, I'm for blowing it up again and developing an organizational philosophy followed by everyone. This thing is too disjointed and that starts from above Pace.

No, I don't really think it was bad luck. And I don't really agree that the problem is a lack of organization philosophy. It seems fairly obvious they were going for a younger, faster defense and counting on a solid run game with the occasional deep threat, a standard play not to lose mentality.

 

the problem is talent at key positions. The offensive tackles suck, the defense cannot rush the passer.

 

Pace, whose history is in scouting guys already in the NFL, has not been a good drafter, and frankly I have no reason to believe he was capable of making a better hire than Fox. He looked for stability.

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

Do you think Fox has too much power right now? I haven't got that impression. I feel like we wouldnt have made as much of a youth push otherwise.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't know what difference it makes whether you "blow it up" or not, this team isn't close. They lack impact talent at key positions. The fantasy is that they can plug holes fast enough to become average everywhere and leverage that into like a 10-6 season or something, but that is a crappy plan that every bad team puts together.

 

They need tackles, they need another WR, they need a secondary, they need at least one elite playmaker somewhere on defense. They need to stop sucking on special teams. And when we are that far away anyway, we might as well be looking for a long-term QB solution because Cutler isn't bad but he isn't it either.

[jersey cubs fan]

Isn't that basically the exact same flaw as Angelo? Good with late round picks, terrible with high picks.

 

More or less, but with Angelo he was typically drafting 18-22, while Pace has had a 7 and a 9. And Angelo's issue was more about finding an offensive coach for Lovie (and not stupidly drafting a good tight end in the firm before trading that tight end away for pennies on the dollar when a new OC decided not to use him). Angelo's team got really talented really quickly and I maintained that from top to bottom the 2006/07 Bears were the most talented team in the league. His first two drafts weren't great, but he started with the 29th selection and got Colombo who was worthy of the selection but suffered a devastating injury after the fact. Haynes was a bust but he got Tillman, Briggs and Alex Brown in the second year and followed that up with Tommie, Tank, Vasher and Berrian.

 

So, yeah it's probably best to have Pace maintain stability and try and grow this thing, but the fact that he hired a stable/safe coach and still managed to field a 10 loss team and what looks to potentially be a 10 or more loss team in his second year is a really bad sign. He probably does get another coaching hire before he's gone.

[WrigleyField 22]

I don't know what difference it makes whether you "blow it up" or not, this team isn't close. They lack impact talent at key positions. The fantasy is that they can plug holes fast enough to become average everywhere and leverage that into like a 10-6 season or something, but that is a crappy plan that every bad team puts together.

 

They need tackles, they need another WR, they need a secondary, they need at least one elite playmaker somewhere on defense. They need to stop sucking on special teams. And when we are that far away anyway, we might as well be looking for a long-term QB solution because Cutler isn't bad but he isn't it either.

Yea there really isnt anything left to blow up except letting Cutler go and committing to a rookie QB. Everything else is the same plan - add better players. The blowup already occurred over the past 3 seasons when they moved on fom the foundations of the 06 team. Even some of the recent moves were always set up to be potential short term moves (looking at you Massie)

[jersey cubs fan]

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

 

Not sure how that's the issue right now. Head coaches always win the power struggle if they win. Fox hasn't won and he's hardly dictating decisions right now.

[WrigleyField 22]

Isn't that basically the exact same flaw as Angelo? Good with late round picks, terrible with high picks.

 

More or less, but with Angelo he was typically drafting 18-22, while Pace has had a 7 and a 9. And Angelo's issue was more about finding an offensive coach for Lovie (and not stupidly drafting a good tight end in the firm before trading that tight end away for pennies on the dollar when a new OC decided not to use him). Angelo's team got really talented really quickly and I maintained that from top to bottom the 2006/07 Bears were the most talented team in the league. His first two drafts weren't great, but he started with the 29th selection and got Colombo who was worthy of the selection but suffered a devastating injury after the fact. Haynes was a bust but he got Tillman, Briggs and Alex Brown in the second year and followed that up with Tommie, Tank, Vasher and Berrian.

 

So, yeah it's probably best to have Pace maintain stability and try and grow this thing, but the fact that he hired a stable/safe coach and still managed to field a 10 loss team and what looks to potentially be a 10 or more loss team in his second year is a really bad sign. He probably does get another coaching hire before he's gone.

If it wasn't for his age, I would actually think we were in for a early/mid aughts Cincy situation where we just held onto a coach year after year, without making the playoffs.

[UK]

No, I don't really think it was bad luck. And I don't really agree that the problem is a lack of organization philosophy. It seems fairly obvious they were going for a younger, faster defense and counting on a solid run game with the occasional deep threat, a standard play not to lose mentality.

 

the problem is talent at key positions. The offensive tackles suck, the defense cannot rush the passer.

 

Pace, whose history is in scouting guys already in the NFL, has not been a good drafter, and frankly I have no reason to believe he was capable of making a better hire than Fox. He looked for stability.

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

 

isn't that just the status quo in the NFL?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Hatley inherited Wanny, Angelo inherited Jauron, Emery inherited Lovie. This is the 1st time since 92', the GM picked the coach at the start. That's a flawed system to me. Not even the Browns have that odd track record.

[David]

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

 

isn't that just the status quo in the NFL?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Hatley inherited Wanny, Angelo inherited Jauron, Emery inherited Lovie. This is the 1st time since 92', the GM picked the coach at the start. That's a flawed system to me. Not even the Browns have that odd track record.

 

I just mean that I think most coaches, especially ones who've had any degree of success, have lots of say in personnel (moreso than other sports) and often have more say than their supposed superiors.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

To me, the balance of power between the GM and HC has always been flawed. Too many circumstances (including now) where the coach has more power than the GM.

 

isn't that just the status quo in the NFL?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Hatley inherited Wanny, Angelo inherited Jauron, Emery inherited Lovie. This is the 1st time since 92', the GM picked the coach at the start. That's a flawed system to me. Not even the Browns have that odd track record.

 

Hatley wasn't GM.

 

The situations you cite do not indicate a situation where the coach has more power than the GM. All those guys replaced the one they inherited. Pace hired Fox and will probably get a chance to hire the next coach. I do not understand what your point is here.

 

NFL coaches who win will gain power over the GM. Fox isn't lording over Halas Hall. He's a short-term head coach and everybody knows it.

[UK]

 

isn't that just the status quo in the NFL?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Hatley inherited Wanny, Angelo inherited Jauron, Emery inherited Lovie. This is the 1st time since 92', the GM picked the coach at the start. That's a flawed system to me. Not even the Browns have that odd track record.

 

I just mean that I think most coaches, especially ones who've had any degree of success, have lots of say in personnel (moreso than other sports) and often have more say than their supposed superiors.

 

And they should have a significant say but ultimately the GM should find a coach that fits his mold rather than the other way. I think in most cases this is true where the GM is higher especially with the successful GMs (Elway, Schneider, Newsome, etc)

[WrigleyField 22]

So your issue is GMs inherenting coaches?

[UK]

So your issue is GMs inherenting coaches?

 

My issue is that I want a direction with this team. You rebuild with a guy that scouted pro players, you have a coach that is known as a veteran old school type.

 

You lose your three best offensive weapons in two off-seasons and replace them with Langford, White, and Miller.

 

They go 3-13 and get a top 5 pick and you want Pace with that decision. Next year, when Cutler is gone, they'll likely be the worst team.

 

In two off-seasons, the only position that has improved has been the middle lbs of 3-4 defense.

 

O-line-regressed. Secondary regressed. Still no pass rush. I already mentioned WR, RB, and TE.

 

For this type of rebuild, I don't have confidence. They seem the type to do well stop-gap veteran FAs but Pace has been bad at that too.

[WrigleyField 22]

So to be a draft driven franchise you have to have young unproven coaches and GMs who came up from the college scouting ranks?

 

Okay....

[UK]

So to be a draft driven franchise you have to have young unproven coaches and GMs who came up from the college scouting ranks?

 

Okay....

 

No. But I would like to see some emphasis w/amateur scouting from the GM. It's why I like Highsmith from GBP.

 

I assumed Pace would come in and do some patchwork for two years and maybe sneak a 10-6 team as I thought that would be his and Fox's strengths. Instead, Pace has been bad both in FA and the draft so far, leading them to a likely complete rebuild (which is rare in the NFL).

 

If Pace and Fox failed at what I thought their strength was, I can't trust with building thru the draft.

[WrigleyField 22]

Failed implies such permanence though. They're merely falling.

[WrigleyField 22]

i know it looks bleak, and i know the picks were controversial, at best, at the time, but let's at least give them more than 2 NFL games played before declaring him JA with 1st rounders.

While I more or less agree with your point, I'm still calling it 18 games.

[jersey cubs fan]

So to be a draft driven franchise you have to have young unproven coaches and GMs who came up from the college scouting ranks?

 

Okay....

 

No. But I would like to see some emphasis w/amateur scouting from the GM. It's why I like Highsmith from GBP.

 

I assumed Pace would come in and do some patchwork for two years and maybe sneak a 10-6 team as I thought that would be his and Fox's strengths. Instead, Pace has been bad both in FA and the draft so far, leading them to a likely complete rebuild (which is rare in the NFL).

 

If Pace and Fox failed at what I thought their strength was, I can't trust with building thru the draft.

But Fox isn't here for the long haul, Pace probably is. I'm not sure what you mean about "emphasis w/amateur scouting", but he did hire a longtime Ravens scout as his director of college scouting and that guy left after one year.

[WrigleyField 22]

So to be a draft driven franchise you have to have young unproven coaches and GMs who came up from the college scouting ranks?

 

Okay....

 

No. But I would like to see some emphasis w/amateur scouting from the GM. It's why I like Highsmith from GBP.

 

I assumed Pace would come in and do some patchwork for two years and maybe sneak a 10-6 team as I thought that would be his and Fox's strengths. Instead, Pace has been bad both in FA and the draft so far, leading them to a likely complete rebuild (which is rare in the NFL).

 

If Pace and Fox failed at what I thought their strength was, I can't trust with building thru the draft.

But Fox isn't here for the long haul, Pace probably is. I'm not sure what you mean about "emphasis w/amateur scouting", but he did hire a longtime Ravens scout as his director of college scouting and that guy left after one year.

I think UK thought we'd be more Saints like in our player acquisition, essentially leveraging big FA moves. But that hasnt been Pace's actual execution. He has executed a very youth-oriented, risk avoidance approach. Right now his biggest FA flops have occurred on prove it deals. His most agressive moves have been his first round draft selections, not his pro moves.

[UK]

Failed implies such permanence though. They're merely falling.

 

Emery had 3 years and Trestman had 2 and it was the right move to fire them.

 

Without Cutler and Alshon, what would you expect from this team next year?

[WrigleyField 22]

Failed implies such permanence though. They're merely falling.

 

Emery had 3 years and Trestman had 2 and it was the right move to fire them.

 

Without Cutler and Alshon, what would you expect from this team next year?

Agreed re: Emery and Treastman.

 

Without Cutler and Alshon... I wouldnt expect a lot. But then again things can shift quickly in the NFL.

 

But it also depends on expectations. You seem to be grading him on a quick turnaround approach, but that hasn't really been the strategy as its played out. But I guess it depends what management expected. We were one of the oldest, least homegrown teams 5 years ago coming off a 10 win season, and still were one of the oldest, least homegrown coming off a 11 loss season when Pace took over 2 offseasons ago. So we were never equipped as a quick turnaround type team.