Minor League Discussion & Boxes, 9-5-16 (Regular Season Finale)

[CubsWin]

 

Quick - now look at his performance in the minors. I liked Almora plenty on draft day. Since then he's shown one consistent offensive skill in that he does not strike out. Duh it matters for everybody, feel free to name the player I also don't look hard at performance for as well. Kellogg performed this year, plain and simple, and has the background of a guy who can continue to do so.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think will put up a greater career fWAR and be a more valuable major leaguer, Almora or Kellogg?

 

Going by what is available and known today, the answer is Almora. Unfortunately, out projecting an pitcher in A ball does not improve Almora as a player.

Yes, that is unfortunate. Hopefully he's not improving at age 22.

[CubsWin]

I need to take the time this weekend to update the prospect ranking page. I was going to wait until the minor league seasons were completely over, but it might as well be done now.

 

Can we start making a list of who needs to come off the list and who needs to get added?

 

Players to come off:

 

Contreras

Almora

Vogelbach

Torres

McKinney

Edwards

 

Players to add:

 

Hatch

Miller

Clark

Mekkes

Manuel Rondon

 

That was off the top of my head, so please add to the list.

I posted this a while back in the Prospect Page Thread...

 

'd like to make some player requests, Tim, if that's okay.

 

First, we can remove Contreras, Almora, Edwards, Torres, McKinney, Vogelbach, Blackburn and Crawford from the list. It's probably time to add guys like Thomas Hatch, Tyson Miller, Bailey Clark, Dakota Mekkes, Erling Moreno, Manuel Rondon, Matt Rose, Rob Zastryzny, Jose Rosario, Javier Assad, Brailyn Marquez, Faustino Carrera, Hector Garcia, Aramis Ademan, Jonathan Sierra, Yonthan Perlaza, Miguel Amaya, Kwang Min-Kwon, (...and any other 2015 IFA you like).

[craig]

"Markey, Skulina, Clark, Miller, Mekkes, etc have taken more seriously on this board than Kellogg"

 

Kellogg is a much better prospect than Markey, Skulina, or Tseng. They have failed, he hasn't. Until he fails, he's a prospect, in my book.

 

But certainly Tseng and Jokish are illustrations that having a resume of Kellogg-esque numbers in the Midwest League is little proof that a guy will be successful at higher levels. I'll keep an eye on Kellogg as long as he's having success; for a guy with minus-velocity I'll probably give up pretty quick if/when he fails.

 

Here's Kellogg's resume: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?P=ryan-kellogg

 

Not sure how exciting 3.15, 3.76, and 3.60 ERA's are in college, with K/9 of 5-6-7.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Apologies for the posts in a row....I guess we need a multi-quote feature or maybe I have missed it.

 

Best way to do this is to quote one post, and then when you get to where you want another quote, scroll down and click the quote button [ " ] on that recent posts at the bottom of the page:

 

[CubsWin]

Yes, that is unfortunate. Hopefully he's not improving at age 22.

 

He's a 4+ year pro displaying the same skillset at every level. Beyond maybe some age related power in the next couple years, what are the odds that he actually takes a leap forward?

Sorry, that was supposed to read "hopefully he's not done improving at age 22".

 

I don't know what being a 4 year pro has anything to with still being able to improve. What difference does it make if you spent time learning and maturing physically in college and got drafted when you were 21 or got drafted out of high school? Anyway, that's how I see it. I respect that you think differently

 

I want to say I think many of your opinions are well thought out and valid, just sometimes not well argued. But that's not the issue I have with you. Almost everyone else who posts here has the ability to respect another person's opinion, so long as it's reasonably well supported. But you seem to think only your opinion is the right one. You will incessantly argue against anyone who doesn't agree with your specific point of view. There's more than one intelligent and well informed baseball fan on this site, and not only is it tiresome to have to put up with you, but it takes the fun out of posting here. Someone can see a player (or whatever) differently than you, and it can be a perfectly valid opinion worthy of your respect as I allow you to have your's.

 

I can almost hear your retort already. "If you don't like it, then just ignore it." First, it would be great if you took your own advice. Second, many posters who used to add to the discussions here have been doing exactly that, so much so that very few bother to comment anymore.

 

Okay, said my piece. Finally.

 

Be well. And fire away.

[Aaron_Kennelly]

Yeah, I mainly don't post in the minor league forum as much anymore, specifically because I'd rather not deal with Tom.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yeah, I mainly don't post in the minor league forum as much anymore, specifically because I'd rather not deal with Tom.

 

Not needed.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Also not needed. How about people be grown ups, not a high bar.

[CubsWin]

Sorry, that was supposed to read "hopefully he's not done improving at age 22".

 

I don't know what being a 4 year pro has anything to with still being able to improve. What difference does it make if you spent time learning and maturing physically in college and got drafted when you were 21 or got drafted out of high school? Anyway, that's how I see it. I respect that you think differently

 

I want to say I think many of your opinions are well thought out and valid, just sometimes not well argued. But that's not the issue I have with you. Almost everyone else who posts here has the ability to respect another person's opinion, so long as it's reasonably well supported. But you seem to think only your opinion is the right one. You will incessantly argue against anyone who doesn't agree with your specific point of view. There's more than one intelligent and well informed baseball fan on this site, and not only is it tiresome to have to put up with you, but it takes the fun out of posting here. Someone can see a player (or whatever) differently than you, and it can be a perfectly valid opinion worthy of your respect as I allow you to have your's.

 

I can almost hear your retort already. "If you don't like it, then just ignore it." First, it would be great if you took your own advice. Second, many posters who used to add to the discussions here have been doing exactly that, so much so that very few bother to comment anymore.

 

Okay, said my piece. Finally.

 

Be well. And fire away.

 

- I understood what you were going for, though the idea that Almora has been improving (and therefore is not finished) is still funny given the actual numbers.

 

- If you see no difference between pro and college coaching, training, nutrition, facilities, and etc then more power to you, but even above average college programs do not come near the quality of the pros.

 

- I just cannot comprehend why 4 years of doing the same general things over and over will somehow change just based on one piece of data - his age.

 

- I've seen before you're a pretty sensitive guy and think me responding and disagreeing is arguing, but I am just offering my take. If you notice I offer a counterpoint often and find it tedious, then consider that I am often responding to the same people making the same point just as often. For instance we've done Kellogg probably a dozen different times - including Keith Law's same take on him, Almora probably a dozen different times, and each time the same crowd tends to make it personal fast. I agree I could be smoother with my arguments, the same could be said of anyone. "He'll get better because he's 22" - in a nutshell - sounds as empty to me as "Kellogg's pedigree and long track record of successes coming into pro ball are a big positive and so far his performance is holding up" - in a nutshell - sounds to you. {/quote]

Project much?

 

I am a sensitive guy. I like that I'm a sensitive guy. It's kind of my job to be a sensitive guy. I'm an actor. But you misunderstand. You don't ever hurt my feelings by disagreeing with me. I like learning other's points of view. It's why I come here. In fact, you've never hurt my feelings, made me feel defensive or mad or anything. You've only taken the fun out of posting here with your incessant "arguing".

 

And you continue to misunderstand what I mean by arguing. It's not like when your parents "argued" and was upsetting. It's not upsetting to me to have my idea on a player challenged. It's fun, if it's done respectfully as an exchange of ideas. I often learn a lot from those exchanges. I'm using "argument" in the sense of what a lawyer does in court. That kind. Only you keep arguing your case over and over again anytime someone expresses a different yet still valid and well-supported opinion. The Judge has left the courtroom. The Bailiff is having a beer, and you're still going.

 

Your response is case in point. I respect your opinion on Almora. I see things differently, but since the future is unknown, you might be right. I've told you that over and over again. And yet you still feel the need to state your case (argument) once again, simply because I've stated a differing opinion. To my memory you've never once told anyone you see their point of view and that it's valid. If someone else's point of view doesn't align with yours perfectly, it's invalid to you and in need of correction. That's the problem. It's tiresome, disrespectful and no fun.

 

As Crash Davis once said, "So relax, let's have some fun out here. This game's fun. Okay?"

[CubsWin]

Project much?

 

I am a sensitive guy. I like that I'm a sensitive guy. It's kind of my job to be a sensitive guy. I'm an actor. But you misunderstand. You don't ever hurt my feelings by disagreeing with me. I like learning other's points of view. It's why I come here. In fact, you've never hurt my feelings, made me feel defensive or mad or anything. You've only taken the fun out of posting here with your incessant "arguing".

 

And you continue to misunderstand what I mean by arguing. It's not like when your parents "argued" and was upsetting. It's not upsetting to me to have my idea on a player challenged. It's fun, if it's done respectfully as an exchange of ideas. I often learn a lot from those exchanges. I'm using "argument" in the sense of what a lawyer does in court. That kind. Only you keep arguing your case over and over again anytime someone expresses a different yet still valid and well-supported opinion. The Judge has left the courtroom. The Bailiff is having a beer, and you're still going.

 

Your response is case in point. I respect your opinion on Almora. I see things differently, but since the future is unknown, you might be right. I've told you that over and over again. And yet you still feel the need to state your case (argument) once again, simply because I've stated a differing opinion. To my memory you've never once told anyone you see their point of view and that it's valid. If someone else's point of view doesn't align with yours perfectly, it's invalid to you and in need of correction. That's the problem. It's tiresome, disrespectful and no fun.

 

As Crash Davis once said, "So relax, let's have some fun out here. This game's fun. Okay?"

 

- This is less about your feelings being hurt, at least in the way you think, and more about you taking being disagreed with as the seeds for an argument rather than a discussion. You make the choice to take it personally, hit pause, and give me a finger wagging lecture about how I should basically agree with you more or shut up. You're the guy who felt the need to give me a lecture about posting DSL stuff earlier this season, no? See, that too me is infinitely more confrontational than what I do when I disagree and present why I believe - quantitatively and qualitatively more often than not - what I believe. Moments like that, or making it clear that you meant to say that Almora will keep improving, bringing Almora into the convo at all, make it very hard for me to believe you're not taking me diagreeing personally and looking to discuss rather than argue. Almora didn't even have anything to do with this discusison until you decided to bring him in based on previous disagreements - hardly the sign of someone respecting another poster's take and not taking something personal.

 

- These condescending lectures make posting less fun for me too. It works both ways. I don't know if you noticed, but these moments where you "finally" get something off your chest over something personal with me - and all you have to do is PM - happened multiple times this season. Again, it makes it hard to buy that you're not taking me personally, are totally chill and relaxed, and that your problem with me is one born of my disrespect for you rather than the other way around.

 

- The whole sabermetrics/analytics movement in baseball, and the general pooling of information and data on a wider scale in and across every industry, is built around the idea that future is at least a little less unknowable than imagined. There's 4+ years of performance that says Almora has not been improving like you insist and, beyond being a couple years off peak power and good at putting the bat on the ball, nothing major that says he will be an above average or better hitter. From there it's a matter of how important it is to have a rangy, elite defensive CF when 81 games are played at the park with the smallest OF in the majors. I don't believe it's vital, particularly since he is not much of a hitter.

 

- I say take your own advice, quit trying to lecture me as there are people in place here for that, relax, and just talk baseball.

Again with Almora. Why do you keep bringing up Almora?

 

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I don't take being disagreed with personally. If you want to believe that, you may, but it only serves to muddy communication. I have no need to convince you of anything or to be considered right about anything.

 

I'll continue to stand for that agreeing to disagree, stepping back from belaboring a point after it's already been made a couple of times and endeavoring to see the other person's point of view is simply a more fun way to have discussions on a discussion board. And I whole-heartedly agree, having to be the one to bring this up and "lecture" you isn't any fun for me either. I'd much rather be doing something else.

 

I'm just trying to keep this minor league board going. It's been a fun part of my cub fan experience since 2003. And I'd like for it to continue to be fun. Hyper-contentious, defensive, incessant replies should be steered away from, not because their hurtful, but because they suck the enjoyment out of talking baseball. I'm not saying you disagree with that statement. I'm saying that's what I'm saying. However, if you feel you must disagree with that, feel free.

[CubsWin]

Again with Almora. Why do you keep bringing up Almora?

 

Are you serious? Again, stuff like this makes it very hard to take your gripes seriously - particularly as you continue to air them out in open threads when clearly it's more personal than that. I will insist again that you take your own advice and relax, be respectful, don't take being disagreed with so personally - Almora is only in this thread's discussion because you are still heated over previous disagreements, leave the lectures for those in charge, and just talk baseball.

You keep projecting how you feel onto me and then using that as an excuse to disregard what I'm attempting to communicate. I don't have any of those feelings. I am relaxed. I am being respectful. I'm bringing up admittedly uncomfortable things to discuss that are not what I want to be talking about, but I felt it needed to be done. I'm crossing lines with this discussion that I never cross. It's a delicate situation that I'd rather not be dealing with. We aren't talking baseball. We are talking about you. I don't want to have to talk about this. I waited all season to see how it played out before I brought your style of posting up. I'm glad I did. I felt it needed to be said.

 

I'll say this one more time because this is the crux of what's not so much fun. I'm not heated at you mentioning Almora again. I'm laughing at it in disbelief because it's the perfect example of what I'm describing. We agree to disagree. I'm not trying to change your mind on Almora. Why can't you extend that same courtesy. I admit that your point of view of him might play out. Why can't you extend that same courtesy. It doesn't hurt my feelings that you don't. It just would be much more fun, enjoyable and respectful and less eye-rollingly exhausting if you did and then let it go.

 

Hyper-contentious, defensive, incessant replies should be steered away from, not because their hurtful, but because they suck the enjoyment out of talking baseball. I'm not saying you disagree with that statement. I'm saying that's what I'm saying. That's all.