soccer soccer soccer

[stitchface]

Mount is massively overrated and nowhere near chelsea's best player.

[soccer10k]

I know the reasons why Liverpool is having a much worse season (over performance last year, injuries, three all out years taking its toll, natural let down after winning UCL and then EPL) but it’s still wild to see. If they win out, they’d still finish with 23 fewer points than last year.

[stitchface]

I know the reasons why Liverpool is having a much worse season (over performance last year, injuries, three all out years taking its toll, natural let down after winning UCL and then EPL) but it’s still wild to see. If they win out, they’d still finish with 23 fewer points than last year.

 

I've been expecting this "collapse" for some time basically because their style of play is not physically sustainable with this many games and a roster not deep enough. It still seems like luck is a major factor but you really can see how things have broken down. The overall system cannot be sustained.

[imb]

Mount is massively overrated and nowhere near chelsea's best player.

 

who would you say is

[stitchface]

Mount is massively overrated and nowhere near chelsea's best player.

 

who would you say is

 

best player is tough to quantify as it is definitely a team sport. I think their most vital player is Jorginho and it shows when he isn't on the field. Mount is a very useful player but he is more about individual than team - ie he doesn't really make his teammates better. I still think Pulisic is their most talented attacking player but his impact is reduced and his lack of defensive tracking is perhaps what keeps him on the bench. That game yesterday devolved into a bunch of big fast guys crashing into each violently and it really doesn't suit CP's style. Frankly, Chelsea is a bunch of good players but no real great players - the fact that Mount is perceived as their most effective player really tells the team's story for me. You are very limited in attack if that is the best you have.

 

Late add - CHO is a pretty effective player.

[imb]

Mount is massively overrated and nowhere near chelsea's best player.

 

who would you say is

 

best player is tough to quantify as it is definitely a team sport. I think their most vital player is Jorginho and it shows when he isn't on the field. Mount is a very useful player but he is more about individual than team - ie he doesn't really make his teammates better. I still think Pulisic is their most talented attacking player but his impact is reduced and his lack of defensive tracking is perhaps what keeps him on the bench. That game yesterday devolved into a bunch of big fast guys crashing into each violently and it really doesn't suit CP's style. Frankly, Chelsea is a bunch of good players but no real great players - the fact that Mount is perceived as their most effective player really tells the team's story for me. You are very limited in attack if that is the best you have.

 

Late add - CHO is a pretty effective player.

 

well ... they are very limited in attack. Jorghino or, more likely, Kante are probably their most "vital" players, but that's more of a symptom of everyone else's problems than their own greatness.

 

I think if you say something like "mount is nowhere near their best player" and then come back with "maybe it's jorghino?" you've kinda submarined your point.

 

Mount can play on either wing if you need, he can play in midfield, he can score, great first touch, he gets assists, he tracks back from either midfield or the wing to play defense. Sure, if you have an elite winger or striker than you can say Mount isn't your best player. But chelsea don't have that, so Mount is. He's been the only player to have success in the 4-3-3 and the current formation because he's so versatile and his work rate is so high. There's no one else you can say that about. Mount really does just fit wherever he's needed, without him chelsea would be lost

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I know the reasons why Liverpool is having a much worse season (over performance last year, injuries, three all out years taking its toll, natural let down after winning UCL and then EPL) but it’s still wild to see. If they win out, they’d still finish with 23 fewer points than last year.

 

I've been expecting this "collapse" for some time basically because their style of play is not physically sustainable with this many games and a roster not deep enough. It still seems like luck is a major factor but you really can see how things have broken down. The overall system cannot be sustained.

 

I think it's likely a combination of things

 

- style of play ill-suited for this level of fixture congestion, plus a lack of depth(or Klopp's unwillingness to use depth)

- a debilitating run of injuries at a single position, plus a few others(they probably would've snagged a few more points if they hadn't been without Jota and to a lesser extent Keita so much)

- bad xG luck, which you can call purely chance, lack of composure(Alisson) and finishing, etc

 

The good news is that none of those appear to be super long term concerns, the biggest worry likely being if they can have the requisite depth in future seasons or if Klopp will use it. The current problems are intractable enough that the Champions league is a big question mark though, and missing that would really undermine their ability to add depth.

[imb]

liverpool's backline injuries get all the blame, but every time i watch them play, their midfield looks completely ineffectual. They had like one shot on goal yesterday and that came in like the 87th minute. They subbed out Salah really early because he was trying to commit suicide by doing 80 yard sprints over and over because that was his only hope of touching the ball

[stitchface]

liverpool's backline injuries get all the blame, but every time i watch them play, their midfield looks completely ineffectual. They had like one shot on goal yesterday and that came in like the 87th minute. They subbed out Salah really early because he was trying to commit suicide by doing 80 yard sprints over and over because that was his only hope of touching the ball

 

Their midfield is effective at pressing and not at building attacks. They routinely played over the top and then pressed in their halcyon days. Any time teams just gave them the ball, their offense sputtered. I think their forwards are also over-rated - very effective in particular scenarios but not in others.

Edited March 5, 2021 by stitchface

[stitchface]

 

who would you say is

 

best player is tough to quantify as it is definitely a team sport. I think their most vital player is Jorginho and it shows when he isn't on the field. Mount is a very useful player but he is more about individual than team - ie he doesn't really make his teammates better. I still think Pulisic is their most talented attacking player but his impact is reduced and his lack of defensive tracking is perhaps what keeps him on the bench. That game yesterday devolved into a bunch of big fast guys crashing into each violently and it really doesn't suit CP's style. Frankly, Chelsea is a bunch of good players but no real great players - the fact that Mount is perceived as their most effective player really tells the team's story for me. You are very limited in attack if that is the best you have.

 

Late add - CHO is a pretty effective player.

 

well ... they are very limited in attack. Jorghino or, more likely, Kante are probably their most "vital" players, but that's more of a symptom of everyone else's problems than their own greatness.

 

I think if you say something like "mount is nowhere near their best player" and then come back with "maybe it's jorghino?" you've kinda submarined your point.

 

Mount can play on either wing if you need, he can play in midfield, he can score, great first touch, he gets assists, he tracks back from either midfield or the wing to play defense. Sure, if you have an elite winger or striker than you can say Mount isn't your best player. But chelsea don't have that, so Mount is. He's been the only player to have success in the 4-3-3 and the current formation because he's so versatile and his work rate is so high. There's no one else you can say that about. Mount really does just fit wherever he's needed, without him chelsea would be lost

 

This is a nonsense argument. Jorginho is a far better passer than Kante - he unlocks the other team. Chelsea's attack is much much better with him on the field than without. Mount is easily replaced by an energetic player (like Kante). Chelsea would be nearly the same without Mount. He's not Bruno Fernandes.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

liverpool's backline injuries get all the blame, but every time i watch them play, their midfield looks completely ineffectual. They had like one shot on goal yesterday and that came in like the 87th minute. They subbed out Salah really early because he was trying to commit suicide by doing 80 yard sprints over and over because that was his only hope of touching the ball

 

They're at least a little related, the injuries have meant Henderson and especially Fabinho have gotten taken out of midfield and hurt that group's quality and depth. Plus Van Dijk in particular is great at breaking lines with his passing and his defensive quality gives TAA license to get forward.

 

That said, the midfield has always been the least dynamic part of the LIverpool formation, it's full of guys who can do a job but aren't going to single handedly break anyone's game plan. Especially against the Chelsea formation where there's a lot of numbers in the midfield causing congestion.

[stitchface]

List of Chelsea players better than Mount off the top of my head:

Pulisic

Havertz

Ziyech

CHO

Werner

Jorginho

Kante

 

If Mount was better, all these players would be more effective (or at least the first five). Judging soccer players by watching individual plays is for fools like announcers. Players need to be judged by how they improve the team's play.

[imb]

List of Chelsea players better than Mount off the top of my head:

Pulisic

Havertz

Ziyech

CHO

Werner

Jorginho

Kante

 

If Mount was better, all these players would be more effective (or at least the first five). Judging soccer players by watching individual plays is for fools like announcers. Players need to be judged by how they improve the team's play.

 

lol you either are not watching them play or just like, are not very good at it? I'm not trying to be mean but these posts make no sense.

 

Pulisic had a better stretch after the restart than Mount has ever had, that's true. And he's definitely a better attacker. Not in debate. But he's also fragile and you can't be good if you're not on the field. Even when healthy he hasn't seen the field much since Tuchel took over because his skills are immense but limited to the wing. though I suppose that may change if Tuchel ever stops playing with two wingbacks.

 

Havertz should be better than Mount but he's not. Whether that's because of the COVID sickness he went through, or just the struggles of being in a new league and new country. But you can't say he's better than Mount when he has literally showed next to nothing on the field and is rarely on it.

 

Ziyech - just no. I love what he can do but he has not adjusted well to the premier league at all. And he, again, is incredibly limited in what he can do - though his skills are very valuable if he can ever make use of them. Good luck finding one Ziyech Chelsea highlight.

 

CHO - Definitely more talented and I've been surprised how good he's been when utilized as a WB. Maybe he's better than Mount but until he's actually ... better than Mount, he's just not.

 

Werner - He might be. But he hasn't been. As much as any one player he was responsible for Lampard's demise because he was useless for a three month stretch. He seems to be maybe rounding into form so it's not an impossibility, but again, he hasn't been. These aren't FIFA rankings, we're talking about actual effect on the field.

 

Jorghino - possibly, though there have been matches where he's been so limited due to size and lack of athleticism that he's been completely erased. I was a big Jorghino guy last season but thought he was poor under Lampard this year. He's been invaluable under Tuchel so I won't concede this one but it's not like there's not an argument here.

 

Kante - If I had to actually pick the best player, gun to my head, I'd probably say Kante. Not particularly skilled in the normal way but he has probably the most effect on the field. But it's the same thing that makes Mount so valuable. He actually has a good bit of Kante in him, but he's not as small and he's better going forward (and can be deployed in more formations and positions.) Kante lost his spot because Lampard was so committed to a formation that didn't fit him. But he plays well with 2 in the middle with both Jorghino and Kovacic.

 

This is a nonsense argument. Jorginho is a far better passer than Kante - he unlocks the other team. Chelsea's attack is much much better with him on the field than without. Mount is easily replaced by an energetic player (like Kante). Chelsea would be nearly the same without Mount.

 

Of course Jorghino is a better passer than Kante. Luckily the best thing about soccer is that there are infinite ways to play and construct your formation and succeed in it. Kante covers for other players so well it's insane. For instance, Jorghino really struggles (comparatively) in midfield when he is lined up next to kovacic because he ends up exposed athletically. With Kante, it doesn't matter as much because Kante is so good at getting back and disrupting play.

 

As for Mount being replaced by Kante ... sure, if he's playing in the midfield and other players are in form and scoring. (Not sure it's a criticism to say you can be replaced by a world cup winner who was a driving force behind two premier league titles too.) But Mount has been on the wing as often as not because so many of the forwards have been dreadful. You wanna play Kante at LW?

[imb]

liverpool's backline injuries get all the blame, but every time i watch them play, their midfield looks completely ineffectual. They had like one shot on goal yesterday and that came in like the 87th minute. They subbed out Salah really early because he was trying to commit suicide by doing 80 yard sprints over and over because that was his only hope of touching the ball

 

They're at least a little related, the injuries have meant Henderson and especially Fabinho have gotten taken out of midfield and hurt that group's quality and depth. Plus Van Dijk in particular is great at breaking lines with his passing and his defensive quality gives TAA license to get forward.

 

That said, the midfield has always been the least dynamic part of the LIverpool formation, it's full of guys who can do a job but aren't going to single handedly break anyone's game plan. Especially against the Chelsea formation where there's a lot of numbers in the midfield causing congestion.

 

I guess Im speaking more about Thiago. He was supposed to be the one to do that and yesterday and he seems to never even get close to doing anything other than losing possession or back passing and stalling out a break.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

liverpool's backline injuries get all the blame, but every time i watch them play, their midfield looks completely ineffectual. They had like one shot on goal yesterday and that came in like the 87th minute. They subbed out Salah really early because he was trying to commit suicide by doing 80 yard sprints over and over because that was his only hope of touching the ball

 

They're at least a little related, the injuries have meant Henderson and especially Fabinho have gotten taken out of midfield and hurt that group's quality and depth. Plus Van Dijk in particular is great at breaking lines with his passing and his defensive quality gives TAA license to get forward.

 

That said, the midfield has always been the least dynamic part of the LIverpool formation, it's full of guys who can do a job but aren't going to single handedly break anyone's game plan. Especially against the Chelsea formation where there's a lot of numbers in the midfield causing congestion.

 

I guess Im speaking more about Thiago. He was supposed to be the one to do that and yesterday and he seems to never even get close to doing anything other than losing possession or back passing and stalling out a break.

 

Yeah he's been a disappointment, no doubt. Not sure how much of a coincidence it is that the midfielders who are supposed to bring the most creative attacking quality(Thiago, Keita) have struggled the most.

[stitchface]

List of Chelsea players better than Mount off the top of my head:

Pulisic

Havertz

Ziyech

CHO

Werner

Jorginho

Kante

 

If Mount was better, all these players would be more effective (or at least the first five). Judging soccer players by watching individual plays is for fools like announcers. Players need to be judged by how they improve the team's play.

 

lol you either are not watching them play or just like, are not very good at it? I'm not trying to be mean but these posts make no sense.

 

Pulisic had a better stretch after the restart than Mount has ever had, that's true. And he's definitely a better attacker. Not in debate. But he's also fragile and you can't be good if you're not on the field. Even when healthy he hasn't seen the field much since Tuchel took over because his skills are immense but limited to the wing. though I suppose that may change if Tuchel ever stops playing with two wingbacks.

 

Havertz should be better than Mount but he's not. Whether that's because of the COVID sickness he went through, or just the struggles of being in a new league and new country. But you can't say he's better than Mount when he has literally showed next to nothing on the field and is rarely on it.

 

Ziyech - just no. I love what he can do but he has not adjusted well to the premier league at all. And he, again, is incredibly limited in what he can do - though his skills are very valuable if he can ever make use of them. Good luck finding one Ziyech Chelsea highlight.

 

CHO - Definitely more talented and I've been surprised how good he's been when utilized as a WB. Maybe he's better than Mount but until he's actually ... better than Mount, he's just not.

 

Werner - He might be. But he hasn't been. As much as any one player he was responsible for Lampard's demise because he was useless for a three month stretch. He seems to be maybe rounding into form so it's not an impossibility, but again, he hasn't been. These aren't FIFA rankings, we're talking about actual effect on the field.

 

Jorghino - possibly, though there have been matches where he's been so limited due to size and lack of athleticism that he's been completely erased. I was a big Jorghino guy last season but thought he was poor under Lampard this year. He's been invaluable under Tuchel so I won't concede this one but it's not like there's not an argument here.

 

Kante - If I had to actually pick the best player, gun to my head, I'd probably say Kante. Not particularly skilled in the normal way but he has probably the most effect on the field. But it's the same thing that makes Mount so valuable. He actually has a good bit of Kante in him, but he's not as small and he's better going forward (and can be deployed in more formations and positions.) Kante lost his spot because Lampard was so committed to a formation that didn't fit him. But he plays well with 2 in the middle with both Jorghino and Kovacic.

 

This is a nonsense argument. Jorginho is a far better passer than Kante - he unlocks the other team. Chelsea's attack is much much better with him on the field than without. Mount is easily replaced by an energetic player (like Kante). Chelsea would be nearly the same without Mount.

 

Of course Jorghino is a better passer than Kante. Luckily the best thing about soccer is that there are infinite ways to play and construct your formation and succeed in it. Kante covers for other players so well it's insane. For instance, Jorghino really struggles (comparatively) in midfield when he is lined up next to kovacic because he ends up exposed athletically. With Kante, it doesn't matter as much because Kante is so good at getting back and disrupting play.

 

As for Mount being replaced by Kante ... sure, if he's playing in the midfield and other players are in form and scoring. (Not sure it's a criticism to say you can be replaced by a world cup winner who was a driving force behind two premier league titles too.) But Mount has been on the wing as often as not because so many of the forwards have been dreadful. You wanna play Kante at LW?

 

So, you call me an idiot and then agree with me? Don't be obtuse. It's possible to disagree without being a dick. And I know plenty about what I am watching? Do you?

[wvcbxl]

Current handball rule is so dumb.

 

They changed the official interpretation yesterday: The IFAB clarifies handball Law

[imb]

List of Chelsea players better than Mount off the top of my head:

Pulisic

Havertz

Ziyech

CHO

Werner

Jorginho

Kante

 

If Mount was better, all these players would be more effective (or at least the first five). Judging soccer players by watching individual plays is for fools like announcers. Players need to be judged by how they improve the team's play.

 

lol you either are not watching them play or just like, are not very good at it? I'm not trying to be mean but these posts make no sense.

 

Pulisic had a better stretch after the restart than Mount has ever had, that's true. And he's definitely a better attacker. Not in debate. But he's also fragile and you can't be good if you're not on the field. Even when healthy he hasn't seen the field much since Tuchel took over because his skills are immense but limited to the wing. though I suppose that may change if Tuchel ever stops playing with two wingbacks.

 

Havertz should be better than Mount but he's not. Whether that's because of the COVID sickness he went through, or just the struggles of being in a new league and new country. But you can't say he's better than Mount when he has literally showed next to nothing on the field and is rarely on it.

 

Ziyech - just no. I love what he can do but he has not adjusted well to the premier league at all. And he, again, is incredibly limited in what he can do - though his skills are very valuable if he can ever make use of them. Good luck finding one Ziyech Chelsea highlight.

 

CHO - Definitely more talented and I've been surprised how good he's been when utilized as a WB. Maybe he's better than Mount but until he's actually ... better than Mount, he's just not.

 

Werner - He might be. But he hasn't been. As much as any one player he was responsible for Lampard's demise because he was useless for a three month stretch. He seems to be maybe rounding into form so it's not an impossibility, but again, he hasn't been. These aren't FIFA rankings, we're talking about actual effect on the field.

 

Jorghino - possibly, though there have been matches where he's been so limited due to size and lack of athleticism that he's been completely erased. I was a big Jorghino guy last season but thought he was poor under Lampard this year. He's been invaluable under Tuchel so I won't concede this one but it's not like there's not an argument here.

 

Kante - If I had to actually pick the best player, gun to my head, I'd probably say Kante. Not particularly skilled in the normal way but he has probably the most effect on the field. But it's the same thing that makes Mount so valuable. He actually has a good bit of Kante in him, but he's not as small and he's better going forward (and can be deployed in more formations and positions.) Kante lost his spot because Lampard was so committed to a formation that didn't fit him. But he plays well with 2 in the middle with both Jorghino and Kovacic.

 

This is a nonsense argument. Jorginho is a far better passer than Kante - he unlocks the other team. Chelsea's attack is much much better with him on the field than without. Mount is easily replaced by an energetic player (like Kante). Chelsea would be nearly the same without Mount.

 

Of course Jorghino is a better passer than Kante. Luckily the best thing about soccer is that there are infinite ways to play and construct your formation and succeed in it. Kante covers for other players so well it's insane. For instance, Jorghino really struggles (comparatively) in midfield when he is lined up next to kovacic because he ends up exposed athletically. With Kante, it doesn't matter as much because Kante is so good at getting back and disrupting play.

 

As for Mount being replaced by Kante ... sure, if he's playing in the midfield and other players are in form and scoring. (Not sure it's a criticism to say you can be replaced by a world cup winner who was a driving force behind two premier league titles too.) But Mount has been on the wing as often as not because so many of the forwards have been dreadful. You wanna play Kante at LW?

 

So, you call me an idiot and then agree with me? Don't be obtuse. It's possible to disagree without being a dick. And I know plenty about what I am watching? Do you?

 

Damn if that’s someone agreeing with you I’d hate to see a disagreement

[wolf stansson]

I hated Mount. Now he’s one of my favorite players. He’s just so solid everywhere and his effort is incredible.

 

 

https://twitter.com/briansciaretta/status/1368233523879018502?s=21

[imb]

I hated Mount. Now he’s one of my favorite players. He’s just so solid everywhere and his effort is incredible.

 

 

https://twitter.com/briansciaretta/status/1368233523879018502?s=21

 

Just came to post that rocket. Friendship ended with Christian now Daryl is my new best friend

[wolf stansson]

https://twitter.com/spearheadkyle/status/1368232901150601219?s=21

 

 

Dang dude! The angle. The power. Fuckin blasted.

[wolf stansson]

[stitchface]

https://twitter.com/spearheadkyle/status/1368232901150601219?s=21

 

 

Dang dude! The angle. The power. horsefeathers blasted.

 

wow. the power is one thing but combined with that accuracy.

[stitchface]

Haaland 2 Lewandowski 2 - HT. Hard to see Bayern not running away with this one in the second half though.

[stitchface]

I hated Mount. Now he’s one of my favorite players. He’s just so solid everywhere and his effort is incredible.

 

 

https://twitter.com/briansciaretta/status/1368233523879018502?s=21

 

 

I don't hate Mount. As I have said, he is a valuable and needed piece for a team. He is not an elite player and if you are building your team around him, you are never going to be a top team. Chelsea has several more talented players that are not being used effectively and playing a midfield of Mount, Kante, and Kovacic is never going to work. Kante is basically a better albeit older version of Mount and having two of them out there without a play-maker is not going to be effective. When you watch Chelsea without Jorginho, they cannot get the ball forward without heaving it - of course their skilled players aren't effective if they are constantly chasing long balls.