Offseason Rumors

[Sammy Sofa]

I really think our FO is going to give each of the big 4 a legit major league shot before moving any of them to other teams. That alone may take until the end of 2015 to accomplish. We've gone this far with it, I'm disappointed it may take longer, but another year or two of [expletive] burgers won't kill me. But [expletive] Ricketts, we could have really exploited some loopholes in IFA, that if money was there, I'm sure we would have.

Agreed. I can handle another year or two of suckiness if it means some sustained success. The only way I bail is if Ozzie Guillen somehow becomes a part of this. Yes, I hate the guy that much. If that does happen, I'll see you whenever he's fired/gone/quits/is institutionalized.

 

Why do you keep bringing up this Ozzie Guillen nonsense? It doesn't matter if he wants a job or not; they're not hiring him.

[Guest]

I really think our FO is going to give each of the big 4 a legit major league shot before moving any of them to other teams. That alone may take until the end of 2015 to accomplish. We've gone this far with it, I'm disappointed it may take longer, but another year or two of [expletive] burgers won't kill me. But [expletive] Ricketts, we could have really exploited some loopholes in IFA, that if money was there, I'm sure we would have.

Agreed. I can handle another year or two of suckiness if it means some sustained success. The only way I bail is if Ozzie Guillen somehow becomes a part of this. Yes, I hate the guy that much. If that does happen, I'll see you whenever he's fired/gone/quits/is institutionalized.

 

Why do you keep bringing up this Ozzie Guillen nonsense? It doesn't matter if he wants a job or not; they're not hiring him.

 

Even if they did, he won't leave. Just like he didn't leave NSBB.

[Clem Fandango]

That was Beer Kaese, not Beer Here.

[Guest]

That was Beer Kaese, not Beer Here.

 

Damnit.

[HoopsCubs]

Just finished talking to a source, who was down in Orlando. Here are some interesting things he heard:

 

- Soler was discussed with 1 team specifically (speculation was Miami)

- Samardzija was discussed with both Los Angeles teams

- FO spoke to the agents for Josh Johnson, Kelly Johnson and Kevin Youkilis, and the discussions were more than casual

- Free agent CF Chris Young's agent is looking for a 3 year deal

 

Will pass on more when I hear more.

[KingCubsFan]

I really think our FO is going to give each of the big 4 a legit major league shot before moving any of them to other teams. That alone may take until the end of 2015 to accomplish. We've gone this far with it, I'm disappointed it may take longer, but another year or two of [expletive] burgers won't kill me. But [expletive] Ricketts, we could have really exploited some loopholes in IFA, that if money was there, I'm sure we would have.

 

My problem all along with this rebuild has been that it has been one-sided. If a very high percentage of the top guys don't work out, then the last couple years have been wasted not trying.

I'll err on the FO's proven ability of being able to develop players on that one. But I understand anyone else's hesitancy.

 

I understand the FO's track record and that does give one hope. However, four or five years of 90+ losses is inexcusable. I don't care if it is the FO's fault, ownerships fault, or some combination, it should never happen.

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

[Guest]

I said it would take awhile at the outset of this sea change in leadership, but the thing that bothers me is there has been zero improvement in the big club. No one will convince me it was all part of the plan. I also never thought the people who bought the team would cry poor either, that's a big one to swallow.

 

The Cubs had 8 players in 2011 that were 1.5 fWAR or greater(not even setting the standard at league average). 2 were post-prime players who were rightly not brought back in FA(Ramirez, Pena), 3 were FA the following year who were kept but dealt in 2012 after tanking their value with poor performance(Soto, Byrd, Dempster*), Marshall(dealt for a great return), Garza(dealt for a good return after injury/contract demands eliminated the chances for an extension), and Castro. When you add in the lack of talent ascending to the MLB level(Castillo and Lake are the only farm talents added since 2011 to crack 1 fWAR) and the financial restrictions(their validity aside, it's pretty clear they haven't left any of Ricketts' money on the table), it's hard for me to be upset with the state of the MLB team today.

 

*Dempster didn't tank his value, but you get the idea

[jersey cubs fan]

- FO spoke to the agents for Josh Johnson, Kelly Johnson and Kevin Youkilis, and the discussions were more than casual

 

Business casual, business or black tie?

[Guest]

I said it would take awhile at the outset of this sea change in leadership, but the thing that bothers me is there has been zero improvement in the big club. No one will convince me it was all part of the plan. I also never thought the people who bought the team would cry poor either, that's a big one to swallow.

 

The Cubs had 8 players in 2011 that were 1.5 fWAR or greater(not even setting the standard at league average). 2 were post-prime players who were rightly not brought back in FA(Ramirez, Pena), 3 were FA the following year who were kept but dealt in 2012 after tanking their value with poor performance(Soto, Byrd, Dempster*), Marshall(dealt for a great return), Garza(dealt for a good return after injury/contract demands eliminated the chances for an extension), and Castro. When you add in the lack of talent ascending to the MLB level(Castillo and Lake are the only farm talents added since 2011 to crack 1 fWAR) and the financial restrictions(their validity aside, it's pretty clear they haven't left any of Ricketts' money on the table), it's hard for me to be upset with the state of the MLB team today.

 

*Dempster didn't tank his value, but you get the idea

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

[jersey cubs fan]

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

 

People aren't overreacting like they will never get out of it, they are pissed because they never should have been this bad for this long. It is difficult to be this bad for this long. Every franchise may have bad 4-5 year stretches, but not necessarily this bad. But every one of those franchises deserved and got tons of [expletive] from people who bother to care how much they win for the fact that they lost this year.

 

The notion that people have no room to complain because some other random team had a tough stretch in the 70's, or that it's okay because they weren't even trying to win, or that one day they will actually be good again so it doesn't matter is just flat out absurd.

[HoopsCubs]

- FO spoke to the agents for Josh Johnson, Kelly Johnson and Kevin Youkilis, and the discussions were more than casual

 

Business casual, business or black tie?

 

I'm business casual today, but I will be black tie tomorrow. :D

 

I think the point the source was making was that there are hundreds of conversations that go on, but some look more serious than others. He seemed to think the Cubs were looking to land a starter, a 2B and a back-up 1B/3B, respectively.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm not sure I can follow TT down the path of "well, there weren't as many good players in place in 2011 as we'd like, so I understand why they haven't added a bunch of good players since then."

 

I don't understand. Add the good players. If the financial restrictions are real, then maybe we didn't *really* need a Concepcion and a bunch of overpool IFAs and stuff like that. Because what it's doing to attendance and long-term revenues is pretty horrific.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

 

That if you're upset with the improvement in the MLB team, you're either a) really only mad at Ricketts for the FO not being able to spend more b) underestimating the state of the MLB roster(and upper minors) post-2011 or c) both.

[Guest]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

 

That if you're upset with the improvement in the MLB team, you're either a) really only mad at Ricketts for the FO not being able to spend more b) underestimating the state of the MLB roster(and upper minors) post-2011 or c) both.

Sure they inherited a mess, but they've done little to improve it. I'm not underestimating anything. I was ridiculed on here for saying it will take time to get it straightened out, I think by you among others.

 

I did not expect that they would do so little to improve. It'll all be moot if they start winning soon, so whatever.

Edited November 14, 2013 by CubinNY

[Tyrant]

Without perfect hindsight I'm not sure they could have reasonably added enough good available players to get out of the terrible roster Hendry left behind. Edited November 14, 2013 by Tyrant

[KingCubsFan]

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

 

People aren't overreacting like they will never get out of it, they are pissed because they never should have been this bad for this long. It is difficult to be this bad for this long. Every franchise may have bad 4-5 year stretches, but not necessarily this bad. But every one of those franchises deserved and got tons of [expletive] from people who bother to care how much they win for the fact that they lost this year.

 

The notion that people have no room to complain because some other random team had a tough stretch in the 70's, or that it's okay because they weren't even trying to win, or that one day they will actually be good again so it doesn't matter is just flat out absurd.

My point is that every franchise has a point in time where they have a severe shortage of talent and are unable do a quick-fix and turn it around in a year or two. It's even happened to the Yankees. And it is not difficult to be this bad for this long with the situation that Theo walked into. If this were another team, and that team had (1) one of least talented rosters in the league; (2) one of the least productive rosters in the league, (3) one of the highest payrolls in the league, (4) the smallest front office in the league, and (5) far and away the worst facilities in the league, you would probably laugh if a fan of that team told you they could turn it around in a year or two.

 

But it's an argument that will never be resolved. People like Kyle still seem to believe that signing Pujols and CJ Wilson would have magically turned this team into an awe-inspiring display of mediocrity that would have filled the seats.

[Guest]

Without using hindsight I'm not sure they could have reasonably added enough good available players to get out of the terrible roster Hendry left behind.

Maybe, but it doesn't take hindsight to see that they haven't even tried.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Technically, Ryan Flaherty and Tyler Colvin are both 2011 farm products who have had 1+ fWAR seasons since.

[Guest]

I'm not sure I can follow TT down the path of "well, there weren't as many good players in place in 2011 as we'd like, so I understand why they haven't added a bunch of good players since then."

 

I don't understand. Add the good players. If the financial restrictions are real, then maybe we didn't *really* need a Concepcion and a bunch of overpool IFAs and stuff like that. Because what it's doing to attendance and long-term revenues is pretty horrific.

 

They have added good players since then. They haven't made strides relative to 2011 because they had to replace a bunch of the value from even the crappy 2011 team first, and with a mostly barren farm system and an inability to go crazy in FA there aren't nearly as many paths to improvement. The Cardinals had 6 homegrown players with at least 1 WAR who were not 2011 contributors(4 above 2 WAR, 17.7 total). The Cubs had 3 if you include Rizzo(1 above 2 WAR, 6.0 total). If you can't spend your way past that gap(and they couldn't), then you're screwed.

 

And the difference in Soler/Concepcion/overpool IFA is like one Carlos Villanueva. That's not making a material difference in the state of the MLB team.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's even happened to the Yankees.

 

The Yankees have never lost 375 games in a four-year span.

 

But it's an argument that will never be resolved. People like Kyle still seem to believe that signing Pujols and CJ Wilson would have magically turned this team into an awe-inspiring display of mediocrity that would have filled the seats.

 

I know it's crazy, but follow me for a minute. Maybe, just perhaps, (and again, I know I'm asking a lot here), there could have been something in between Pujols/Wilson and Stewart/LaHair.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

They have added good players since then.

 

Obviously not enough.

 

They haven't made strides relative to 2011 because they had to replace a bunch of the value from even the crappy 2011 team first, and with a mostly barren farm system and an inability to go crazy in FA there aren't nearly as many paths to improvement.

 

I'm not denying that it's a narrow road, but the way they gave up in 2012 and seem to be in 2014 without trying wasn't helpful to anything.

 

The Cardinals had 6 homegrown players with at least 1 WAR who were not 2011 contributors(4 above 2 WAR, 17.7 total). The Cubs had 3 if you include Rizzo(1 above 2 WAR, 6.0 total). If you can't spend your way past that gap(and they couldn't), then you're screwed.

 

That total probably looks a little closer if they don't break Starlin Castro.

 

And the difference in Soler/Concepcion/overpool IFA is like one Carlos Villanueva. That's not making a material difference in the state of the MLB team.

 

One Carlos Villanueva well-used could have made a big difference in 2012.

[Backtobanks]

Pretty much every franchise has had a string of 4 or 5 years where the team was bad. And they probably weren't trying to (at least partially) tank like Theo and Jed have. The apparent lack of money really sucks, but people need to stop overreacting like the Cubs are in some kind of dire situation they'll never get out of. The only thing unique about is the whole Wrigley Field mess, and even that looks like it should resolve itself shortly.

 

People aren't overreacting like they will never get out of it, they are pissed because they never should have been this bad for this long. It is difficult to be this bad for this long. Every franchise may have bad 4-5 year stretches, but not necessarily this bad. But every one of those franchises deserved and got tons of [expletive] from people who bother to care how much they win for the fact that they lost this year.

 

The notion that people have no room to complain because some other random team had a tough stretch in the 70's, or that it's okay because they weren't even trying to win, or that one day they will actually be good again so it doesn't matter is just flat out absurd.

 

I agree. There's no reason for a big market team (even though they're pretending to be small market) should suck for this long. I'm tired of reading about how poor Ricketts is when he's tossing around hundreds of millions on real estate and lawyers. God forbid if a few of our top prospects don't live up to expectations. It's time for the FO to put together a decent team in 2014 and a contending team in 2015. Some of the posters here seem to have resigned themselves into accepting 2017-2018.

[davell]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

[Tyrant]

They have added good players since then.

 

Obviously not enough.

 

They haven't made strides relative to 2011 because they had to replace a bunch of the value from even the crappy 2011 team first, and with a mostly barren farm system and an inability to go crazy in FA there aren't nearly as many paths to improvement.

 

I'm not denying that it's a narrow road, but the way they gave up in 2012 and seem to be in 2014 without trying wasn't helpful to anything.

 

The Cardinals had 6 homegrown players with at least 1 WAR who were not 2011 contributors(4 above 2 WAR, 17.7 total). The Cubs had 3 if you include Rizzo(1 above 2 WAR, 6.0 total). If you can't spend your way past that gap(and they couldn't), then you're screwed.

 

That total probably looks a little closer if they don't break Starlin Castro.

 

And the difference in Soler/Concepcion/overpool IFA is like one Carlos Villanueva. That's not making a material difference in the state of the MLB team.

 

One Carlos Villanueva well-used could have made a big difference in 2012.

 

They could have won 65 games!

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I really don't give a flying [expletive] if we lose 87 games instead of 97. And just because a team loses the lesser amount doesn't mean it's in better shape than the latter.

 

I think this idea is getting harder and harder to justify every passing year where we have to go through "But we lost 97 games last year, no point in adding anyone good" and another 300k fewer tickets are bought at Wrigley Field. Not to mention what it's going to do to TV ratings and the media deals.