College Football - Bowl Games

[SpongeWorthy]

If Mark Ingram '09 was on Notre Dame '12, does anyone think Teo would be getting support? McClain's lack of support had nothing to do with him playing for some school in Alabama that nobody had ever heard of.

 

Ingram won the closest Heisman vote in history that should tell you it was a pretty fragmented field. And yes, I think you transported him to ND '12 Teo is still getting a good deal of support considering Ingram had the most pedestrian numbers of basically any winner in a long time.

 

And the McClain thing was to illustrate a point. We're not talking about just a difference in vote totals. We're talking about two guys who played the same position on similarly successful defenses. One guy didn't receive a single vote and the other is going to finish 2nd in the Heisman. That's partly a function of ND hype.

How about illustrating the point that McClain was probably his own team's 5th-best player and ballots only contain spots for 3 people?

 

McClain was a unanimous All American and won the Butkus. Cody and Ingram were similarly productive/lauded as McClain. To say that Jones and Richardson were is completely disingenuous.

 

BS. Offensive players will get more Heisman love than defensive players. If Floyd were still at ND and the offense was scoring 35 ppg, Te'o would not be a finalist.

 

Why woudn't character issues have sunk Floyd's Heisman campaign like it apparently did for McClain?

 

More ND bias in action.

[Tracer Bullet]

If Mark Ingram '09 was on Notre Dame '12, does anyone think Teo would be getting support? McClain's lack of support had nothing to do with him playing for some school in Alabama that nobody had ever heard of.

 

Ingram won the closest Heisman vote in history that should tell you it was a pretty fragmented field. And yes, I think you transported him to ND '12 Teo is still getting a good deal of support considering Ingram had the most pedestrian numbers of basically any winner in a long time.

 

And the McClain thing was to illustrate a point. We're not talking about just a difference in vote totals. We're talking about two guys who played the same position on similarly successful defenses. One guy didn't receive a single vote and the other is going to finish 2nd in the Heisman. That's partly a function of ND hype.

How about illustrating the point that McClain was probably his own team's 5th-best player and ballots only contain spots for 3 people?

 

McClain was a unanimous All American and won the Butkus. Cody and Ingram were similarly productive/lauded as McClain. To say that Jones and Richardson were is completely disingenuous.

 

BS. Offensive players will get more Heisman love than defensive players. If Floyd were still at ND and the offense was scoring 35 ppg, Te'o would not be a finalist.

 

Why woudn't character issues have sunk Floyd's Heisman campaign like it apparently did for McClain?

 

More ND bias in action.

 

Grasp grasp grasp.

[Old Style]

really? I'd argue that a guy with an SEC-record 4,600 yards of offense and SEC-record 43 TD's is an obvious Heisman. Dude put up video game numbers as a Freshman.

Manziel is a great football player and he'll win the Heisman, but he played 3 good defenses and wasn't any good in 2 of the games (yes, Old Style, I know the picks weren't his fault). Apart from those 3 teams, A&M's schedule was pretty crappy, including 2 FCS teams against whom he rang up gigantic numbers. There'd be more of an argument against his candidacy if any other offensive player on a good team had had a big-time season.

He had bad 2nd halves against Florida & LSU, but he played quite well in the first half of each of those games. And you need to check the stats on the FCS games. He only played a half in each of those games, so his stats were not inflated. His biggest games were in the shootout against La Tech when we were missing 4 defensive starters (3 in the secondary) and at Ole Miss when a ton of turnovers forced us to mount a big comeback to win the game. In fact, against South Carolina State Johnny ran for 78 yards and passed for 174 yards. Those are close to the numbers he put up against the Gators. He did have 5 total TD's against SCSU, though. Against Sam Houston State he ran for 100 and threw for 267. Those are hardly stat padding numbers.

[Tracer Bullet]

really? I'd argue that a guy with an SEC-record 4,600 yards of offense and SEC-record 43 TD's is an obvious Heisman. Dude put up video game numbers as a Freshman.

Manziel is a great football player and he'll win the Heisman, but he played 3 good defenses and wasn't any good in 2 of the games (yes, Old Style, I know the picks weren't his fault). Apart from those 3 teams, A&M's schedule was pretty crappy, including 2 FCS teams against whom he rang up gigantic numbers. There'd be more of an argument against his candidacy if any other offensive player on a good team had had a big-time season.

He had bad 2nd halves against Florida & LSU, but he played quite well in the first half of each of those games. And you need to check the stats on the FCS games. He only played a half in each of those games, so his stats were not inflated. His biggest games were in the shootout against La Tech when we were missing 4 defensive starters (3 in the secondary) and at Ole Miss when a ton of turnovers forced us to mount a big comeback to win the game. In fact, against South Carolina State Johnny ran for 78 yards and passed for 174 yards. Those are close to the numbers he put up against the Gators. He did have 5 total TD's against SCSU, though. Against Sam Houston State he ran for 100 and threw for 267. Those are hardly stat padding numbers.

 

um, yes, they are

[Old Style]

Not for Manziel, they aren't. Those are average stats for him. He had 6 TD's against La Tech & SMU, 5 against Auburn & Missouri, and 4 against Arkansas. He had 500+ yards against Arkansas & La Tech and 400+ yards against SMU, Mississippi State, and Missouri.

[Tracer Bullet]

Not for Manziel, they aren't. Those are average stats for him. He had 6 TD's against La Tech & SMU, 5 against Auburn & Missouri, and 4 against Arkansas. He had 500+ yards against Arkansas & La Tech and 400+ yards against SMU, Mississippi State, and Missouri.

 

those are all bad or mediocre teams...

 

and getting your game average in half a game and resting the other half is padding too

[SouthSideRyan]

If Mark Ingram '09 was on Notre Dame '12, does anyone think Teo would be getting support? McClain's lack of support had nothing to do with him playing for some school in Alabama that nobody had ever heard of.

 

Ingram won the closest Heisman vote in history that should tell you it was a pretty fragmented field. And yes, I think you transported him to ND '12 Teo is still getting a good deal of support considering Ingram had the most pedestrian numbers of basically any winner in a long time.

 

And the McClain thing was to illustrate a point. We're not talking about just a difference in vote totals. We're talking about two guys who played the same position on similarly successful defenses. One guy didn't receive a single vote and the other is going to finish 2nd in the Heisman. That's partly a function of ND hype.

 

McClain played for the [expletive] #1 team in the country which just happened to be a resurgent Alabama. But it's probably because nobody heard of him rather than that he was a defensive player on a great offensive(and defensive) team.

[SouthSideRyan]

Not for Manziel, they aren't. Those are average stats for him. He had 6 TD's against La Tech & SMU, 5 against Auburn & Missouri, and 4 against Arkansas. He had 500+ yards against Arkansas & La Tech and 400+ yards against SMU, Mississippi State, and Missouri.

 

Is this supposed to help your case against stat padding?

[Guest]

You guys will love this. Pac-12 refs for the national title game. The crew that reffed the Pac-12 title game - and presumably were the highest-rated crew in the league to get that assignment - also reffed the ND/Stanford game.

 

They're a wretched crew and Larry Scott should fire them after the game.

 

I hope everyone loves penalties. Lots and lots of them.

[Old Style]

So because someone puts up big numbers in a high scoring offense that's considered stat padding? God forbid his numbers are lower against 3 top 10 defenses. How did he do against those teams compared to other QB's?

[abuck1220]

omg i hate EVERYONE'S favorite team now.

 

te'o's interceptions were against a bunch of junk teams and like half of them were on tipped passes.

 

all of your favorite players suck.

[Tracer Bullet]

So because someone puts up big numbers in a high scoring offense that's considered stat padding? God forbid his numbers are lower against 3 top 10 defenses. How did he do against those teams compared to other QB's?

 

If not for Manziel choking against LSU, his team would have played in the sec title game and had a shot at a bcs title.

[Old Style]

So because someone puts up big numbers in a high scoring offense that's considered stat padding? God forbid his numbers are lower against 3 top 10 defenses. How did he do against those teams compared to other QB's?

 

If not for Manziel choking against LSU, his team would have played in the sec title game and had a shot at a bcs title.

2 missed FG's, 1 missed extra point, 1 TD called back because of meaningless chop block that didn't help us score. Yeah, it's all the QB's fault we lost by 5 points.

[Tracer Bullet]

So because someone puts up big numbers in a high scoring offense that's considered stat padding? God forbid his numbers are lower against 3 top 10 defenses. How did he do against those teams compared to other QB's?

 

If not for Manziel choking against LSU, his team would have played in the sec title game and had a shot at a bcs title.

2 missed FG's, 1 missed extra point, 1 TD called back because of meaningless chop block that didn't help us score. Yeah, it's all the QB's fault we lost by 5 points.

 

50% completion %, 0 TDs and 3 picks. 27 yards rushing. Also 0 TDs rushing.

 

The source of about 70% of the Aggie offense didn't show up for the game. Maybe when he's more mature, he'll be able to take a bit of adversity, in the form of missed kicks and penalties (which happen literally to every team in almost every game) and learn to lead his team rather than cower.

[Old Style]

He definitely struggled that game and will hopefully do a lot better with more experience, but the loss was not completely on him. I think pretty much every QB struggled against LSU this season, no?

 

Who is your Heisman winner?

[Tracer Bullet]

Te'o obviously (he's the best player on the best defense for the #1 team and also my favorite player in some time). If the award were truly for the best player that plays with integrity I think it's pretty clear that he wins since there aren't any outstanding offensive candidates. It's never gone to a solely defensive player so he's not likely to win.

 

Manziel is a fine candidate but there isn't an obvious one this year bc there have been no dominant offensive players on the best teams. He struggled mightily against 2 of the best teams they played and they lost both games. That isn't necessarily a knock on him as a player but it's a huge knock to wilt against 2/3 good teams you've faced (saying other QBs also struggled only strengthens my argument that he doesn't stand out from his peers).

 

Teams are winning with defense primarily so it's going to either be a flawed offensive player or the best defensive player. There's enough bias against defensive guys for the Heisman and against ND in many media pockets that Te'o isn't going to finish higher than 2nd. That's a great accomplishment on its own.

[SouthSideRyan]

Old Style would've voted for like 5 Hawaii QBs in a row for Heisman when June Jones was there.

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Old Style would've voted for like 5 Hawaii QBs in a row for Heisman when June Jones was there.

 

He's really bitter than Keenum didn't get the award in 09 and 11.

[Guest]

When did they start only inviting 3 to NYC? I'm kind of disappointed none of the top Pac-12 running backs (Kenjon Barner, Stepfan Taylor or Johnathan Franklin) have a chance at jumping Klein into 3rd.

 

ETA: Forgot Marqise Lee too, who had a hell of a season.

[Tracer Bullet]

There isn't a specific number. Weren't there 5 last year?

[Guest]

There's enough bias against defensive guys for the Heisman and against ND in many media pockets that Te'o isn't going to finish higher than 2nd.

Holy crap - it's one thing to say that the positive bias that used to be out there for ND has withered away. I'll largely agree with that sentiment.

 

But to say that the media is biased against ND is beyond ludicrous. I know you say "pockets". But there are "pockets" of the media that are biased in ND's favor, as well. To use that as a reason why Te'o won't win is incredible.

[Old Style]

Old Style would've voted for like 5 Hawaii QBs in a row for Heisman when June Jones was there.

 

He's really bitter than Keenum didn't get the award in 09 and 11.

Those guys beat the #1 team on the road while amassing a 10-2 record in a BCS conference?

[Old Style]

Te'o obviously (he's the best player on the best defense for the #1 team and also my favorite player in some time). If the award were truly for the best player that plays with integrity I think it's pretty clear that he wins since there aren't any outstanding offensive candidates. It's never gone to a solely defensive player so he's not likely to win.

1. I don't pay enough attention to know who anyone's teams are outside of a few people. The ND/Big 10 lovers are all jumbled together in my mind since there are so many of you here. I do know that SSR has a huge hard on for me, for some unknown reason.

2. Plays with integrity? WTF does that even mean?

[Tracer Bullet]

There's enough bias against defensive guys for the Heisman and against ND in many media pockets that Te'o isn't going to finish higher than 2nd.

Holy crap - it's one thing to say that the positive bias that used to be out there for ND has withered away. I'll largely agree with that sentiment.

 

But to say that the media is biased against ND is beyond ludicrous. I know you say "pockets". But there are "pockets" of the media that are biased in ND's favor, as well. To use that as a reason why Te'o won't win is incredible.

 

Find examples of the pro-ND media bias among voters for any cfb related awards or rankings. Go ahead.

[Tracer Bullet]

Te'o obviously (he's the best player on the best defense for the #1 team and also my favorite player in some time). If the award were truly for the best player that plays with integrity I think it's pretty clear that he wins since there aren't any outstanding offensive candidates. It's never gone to a solely defensive player so he's not likely to win.

1. I don't pay enough attention to know who anyone's teams are outside of a few people. The ND/Big 10 lovers are all jumbled together in my mind since there are so many of you here. I do know that SSR has a huge hard on for me, for some unknown reason.

2. Plays with integrity? WTF does that even mean?

 

The Heisman "annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity." Straight from the horse's mouth. If you don't like it, take it up with them.