Re: NBA Draft & Offseason Thread

[Guest]

Kevin Martin is an expiring contract and likely gone after this year, so this deal comes down long term, to, Jeremy Lamb(who some of you already put in the HOF it seems) and some drafts picks they hope to turn out good. For a player like James Harden, I'm sorry that return sucks.

 

Actually, I have Lamb penciled in a GOAT when his career is over.

[cubbyvirus00]

Cool so the Lakers get an easier path into the Finals. Smh I'm so fuckin sick of the Lakers.

[DivineBovine]

And stop with this nonsense that Harden isn't going to be good on his own. In his third season in the NBA he put up a 21 PER and 660 TS%. His volume numbers are only going to explode with him being a full time starter.

 

The Clippers parlayed Eric Gordon into Chris Paul, so again, I don't see how the Thunder "won" this trade in any sense.

You get that he s going to be less efficient now, right? And his usage is going to go up as well.

You do realize he was one of the most efficient guards in the league last year? So by less efficient, it will likely be from "uber efficient" to "really, really efficient"? Just admit your scouting report on James Harden is wrong.

 

 

Nice. We get to see how accurate sabermetrics is in a team sport.

 

I predict Harden is a big disappointment for Houston. There's a huge difference between being a complementary guy on a great team and being the number 1 option.

 

Let's go back to these posts at the end of the year.

[Guest]

advanced statistics are garbage in basketball

[Theo]

ok, if you want to abandon advance stats and just go off raw numbers, Harden is still damn good.

[Guest]

i'll agree with that.

 

i think it's a fine deal for both teams really, but if i were okc i'd have waited and tried to get a better individual player than anything that they got (even though they still got a ton of value in return)

[Vanilla Ice]

One of OKC's major issues against that the Heat (and the Mavs in the previous years) is that they only really had three scoring threats. Miami could always hide a couple weak defensive players against Sefolosha/Perkins/Collison/Fisher. Their floor spacing was pretty bad and ball movement below average. They succeeded based on the incredible individual talents of Westbrook, Durant, and Harden. If they could field an entire lineup of offensive threats, they would be terrifying. So while yes, a dollar for a hundred pennies is not a good idea, I'm not sure it is that bad in this case.

 

OKC's big challenge from last year to this year is to find three players that are are skilled offensively. One of those spots was always going to be either Ibaka or Harden. I'd rather build a team around Harden, but a lot of his skill set was redundant in OKC. With a little more development in his footwork, Ibaka can become the ideal small-ball center. He is athletic enough to run the floor, obviously is a great shot-blocker, and a good rebounder. His jump shot seems to have taken a large step forward (yeah yeah its the preseason). Unlike Harden, none of Ibaka's skills were going to be replaced by somebody else.

 

So now, their biggest challenge is to find two more wings to complete a lineup. IMO, these two can come from any of the group of Jeremy Lamb, Kevin Martin, Eric Maynor, Perry Jones, Reggie Jackson, and the Toronto pick. Eric Maynor was not going to fit under the luxury tax, if they had kept Harden. Jones and Jackson are the only two that are not a result of this trade. OKC has a three man core and a ton of interchangeable parts with long-term potential to plug in depending on the matchups.

 

San Antonio has had a ton of success with this formula. I think OKC's core is better than SAS's ever was. I also think that OKC's secondary pieces have more potential than San Antonio's complementary players.

 

I think that this trade signals a change from succeeding based on incredible individual talent despite its complementary pieces to putting that talent in a system that allows them to benefit from better spacing and movement. The retooled OKC will have more depth, more long-term potential, and a better opportunity to build cohesive lineups.

 

tl;dr I like the trade.

[Exile on Waveland]

ok, if you want to abandon advance stats and just go off raw numbers, Harden is still damn good.

 

Yes, all one has to do is watch Harden to know he's damn good. That was the case in AAU/high school, college, and the NBA. He's been significantly better than Lamb at the first two stops and I see little reason that changes in the NBA. (Yes, I know there is a journeyman and two draft picks also in the trade.)

[RynoRules]

And stop with this nonsense that Harden isn't going to be good on his own. In his third season in the NBA he put up a 21 PER and 660 TS%. His volume numbers are only going to explode with him being a full time starter.

He also isn't going to have 1 top 3 player and another top 15 player on the court to create more space and not have the defense focus on him. He's a fine addition for the Rockets, but they won't be winning anything with him.

 

Even if you could prove that to be true, that still doesn't justify the [expletive] ass return they got for him. Harden is a great shooter, can create and can finish. His efficiency numbers may take a bit of a hit, but his volume numbers are only going explode and he's going to be one of the best 2 guards in the league for the next decade.

 

Hollinger made a pretty good argument that OKC got more for Harden than the Magic did for Howard.

[RynoRules]

ok, if you want to abandon advance stats and just go off raw numbers, Harden is still damn good.

 

Yes, all one has to do is watch Harden to know he's damn good. That was the case in AAU/high school, college, and the NBA. He's been significantly better than Lamb at the first two stops and I see little reason that changes in the NBA. (Yes, I know there is a journeyman and two draft picks also in the trade.)

 

Kevin Martin is a journeyman? This is his third team after relatively long tenures in two cities. His career PER is over 18 and he's had several seasons over 20. The concern with Martin is his durability/injury history, but he's in his walk year and there will be several talented players hitting the market this offseason. I wouldn't be surprised if they use that cash for a forward like Josh Smith, but there will be several solid SG's out there as well (AI, Ellis, and Mayo, to name a few).

[Exile on Waveland]

ok, if you want to abandon advance stats and just go off raw numbers, Harden is still damn good.

 

Yes, all one has to do is watch Harden to know he's damn good. That was the case in AAU/high school, college, and the NBA. He's been significantly better than Lamb at the first two stops and I see little reason that changes in the NBA. (Yes, I know there is a journeyman and two draft picks also in the trade.)

 

Kevin Martin is a journeyman? This is his third team after relatively long tenures in two cities. His career PER is over 18 and he's had several seasons over 20. The concern with Martin is his durability/injury history, but he's in his walk year and there will be several talented players hitting the market this offseason. I wouldn't be surprised if they use that cash for a forward like Josh Smith, but there will be several solid SG's out there as well (AI, Ellis, and Mayo, to name a few).

 

This will be his third team in four years. Next year he's likely to be on his fourth team in five years. Maybe I'm a year too early, but it's almost inevitable that he bounces around the rest of his career.

[Theo]

The Dwight Howard scenario is not a good comparison, his trade value was killed by the fact the relationship in Orlando had become toxic and he essentially dicated two or three teams in the league he would accept a trade to.

[imb]

I'm OK with the trade, so I won't get into that. I just think it's funny that we're not even a year past the signing of the new CBA "which will give small market teams a chance to compete" and the Lakers trade for Dwight Howard while the Thunder have to cut loose a guy that won't accept far under market value. GET FUCKED, NBA.

[Rex Buckingham]

San Antonio has had a ton of success with this formula. I think OKC's core is better than SAS's ever was. I also think that OKC's secondary pieces have more potential than San Antonio's complementary players.

 

While Durant is an exceptional player, and an unbelievable scorer, I don't think that OKC as they presently stand (or even when they had Harden as the 3rd of their top 3 instead of Ibaka) can compare to SA's top 3. Ginobili and Harden (last year) are very similar, and without looking I do think Harden was likely more efficient scoring, but they were very similar players. Parker was a very good PG, but not on Westbrook's level athletically. I still don't think that advantage is that great though. Tim Duncan is one of the best big men to ever play the game. While Durant is great, Duncan is one of the best of all-time. Durant may yet get there, but Duncan already carried his teams to 4 titles.

[UMFan83]

I'm OK with the trade, so I won't get into that. I just think it's funny that we're not even a year past the signing of the new CBA "which will give small market teams a chance to compete" and the Lakers trade for Dwight Howard while the Thunder have to cut loose a guy that won't accept far under market value. GET [expletive], NBA.

 

I hadn't thought about it that way, but yeah that looks terrible. I think all the CBA did is make it even harder for the small market teams to build and sustain a championship core, and made it so instead of maybe 10 teams that can live above the luxury tax, you are left with probably 3 teams that can year in and year out (New York, LAL and Miami (for now)), along with a handfull that can venture into the luxury tax level occasionally for a year or so.

 

Then you have the Bulls, who benefitted greatly (at least in Reinsdorf's eyes) as they now have a great excuse to never go over the luxury tax (and yes Rip will be traded at some point this year so the Bulls dont finish over)

[imb]

Yeah, it's such a sham. "WE'LL MAKE THE TAX SLIGHTLY MORE PUNITIVE, THAT SHOULD KEEP LA AND NY IN LINE *wink wink*"

 

Never mind the fact they both get upwards of $200 million for their TV deals while the thunder make $15 mil. It's still just a drop in the bucket to true big market teams.

 

I really shouldn't complain, this is the reality of being in this market, it just blows to watch a guy like Harden walk and then see the lakers be like "well i guess we can give up josh mcroberts for dwight howard."

 

I just cant wait for this cba to expire so the owners can go LOOK, WE TRIED AND IT STILL DIDN'T WORK, and we'll lose another year and that vampire Adam Silver will [expletive] everything up

[illiniguy]

The WWE/NBA doesn't really want the small teams to beat Hulk Hogan. They just want fans to believe they do enough to buy the PayPerView.

[Derwood]

Local radio guys were discussing LeBron today and saying he'll never be GOAT because he won't be the center of a team and help grow it around him like Jordan. I wanted to call in and remind them that this isn't how the NBA works anymore. All of the superstars just want to play with each other instead of taking the time to help build a contender.

[illiniguy]

Local radio guys were discussing LeBron today and saying he'll never be GOAT because he won't be the center of a team and help grow it around him like Jordan. I wanted to call in and remind them that this isn't how the NBA works anymore. All of the superstars just want to play with each other instead of taking the time to help build a contender.

Doesn't make him any less great, but it does make the perception of him different.

[Derwood]

Local radio guys were discussing LeBron today and saying he'll never be GOAT because he won't be the center of a team and help grow it around him like Jordan. I wanted to call in and remind them that this isn't how the NBA works anymore. All of the superstars just want to play with each other instead of taking the time to help build a contender.

Doesn't make him any less great, but it does make the perception of him different.

 

The mistake the meatballs make is trying to compare eras. Today's NBA is different than Michael's, and that was different than Bird's.

[illiniguy]

Local radio guys were discussing LeBron today and saying he'll never be GOAT because he won't be the center of a team and help grow it around him like Jordan. I wanted to call in and remind them that this isn't how the NBA works anymore. All of the superstars just want to play with each other instead of taking the time to help build a contender.

Doesn't make him any less great, but it does make the perception of him different.

 

The mistake the meatballs make is trying to compare eras. Today's NBA is different than Michael's, and that was different than Bird's.

I agree with you. Although I think MJ and bird were pretty much the same era. They played like 9 years together.

[bcl412]

I don't think LeBron gets enough credit, with the meatballs at least, for the Cavs teams he turned into one of the best in the East.

[illiniguy]

I don't think LeBron gets enough credit, with the meatballs at least, for the Cavs teams he turned into one of the best in the East.

I'm kind of a meatball in regards to basketball. I can't get behind per. For his career Carlos Boozer has a better per than Lamarcus Aldridge. I don't believe for a second that Boozer is in Alrdidge's league as a player. I guess that's the joy of playing with a great player. Kind of the point I'm trying to make on James Harden.

 

 

That said I do appreciate what LeBron did with that team in Cleveland. The sad part for me is I think he could have won it all with those guys and really wish he would have. That would have spoke more to me about how great he really is.

 

 

Edit: also Kobe's best year is the 105th best year ever according to per. Come on, really? I just can't buy it.

[Splendid Splinter]

Edit: also Kobe's best year is the 105th best year ever according to per. Come on, really? I just can't buy it.

 

 

??? On NBA reference... His best year is 54th all time. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

 

When you got like Wilt/MJ/Shaq/Lebron taking up like 35 of the top 50 best seasons ever... You can see why Kobe is down the list. The biggest knock on him is his FG%. One way to look at it is that it's impressive he's up that high with a lower FG% then the guys that are around him on that list.

 

The one that bothers me is Hakeem Olajuwon best year in PER (92-93) is 71st all time. He avg 26 pts, 13 rebs, 3.5 ast, 1.8 stls, and 4.2 blks!!!! a game on 52.9 FG% and 77.9 FT%.

[Vanilla Ice]

You will find no stats head who claims that PER is the pinnacle of advanced stats. All of them acknowledge that no one stat is coming close to measuring a players true value.