Hypothetical Castro trades that'll never happen

[Sammy Sofa]

Ugh to how he prefaces the whole thing like he's taking some kind of bold, crazy stance in talking up Starlin Castro.

[Guest]

Ugh to how he prefaces the whole thing like he's taking some kind of bold, crazy stance in talking up Starlin Castro.

 

I figure it's because everyone expects him to go all racist meatball.

[StylesClash]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

[Guest]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

You are clearly overlooking how special a player he is. The age and his position are HUGE.

[StylesClash]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

Would you not agree that in order for this offense to improve and become more consistent our ability to work the count and draw walks needs to improve? Why not use our most valuable trade chip to make this happen. I simply see a player who epitomizes the over aggressiveness which has plagued our lineup for years and don't get excited over the premise of him being one of the key pieces of the franchise.

[Guest]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

Would you not agree that in order for this offense to improve and become more consistent our ability to work the count and draw walks needs to improve? Why not use our most valuable trade chip to make this happen. I simply see a player who epitomizes the over aggressiveness which has plagued our lineup for years and don't get excited over the premise of him being one of the key pieces of the franchise.

 

I would not. I just explained why. Castro contributes runs above replacement. It doesn't really matter how. And the things he's bad at, he is pretty likely to get better at because he's 22 years old.

[MSG T]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

Would you not agree that in order for this offense to improve and become more consistent our ability to work the count and draw walks needs to improve? Why not use our most valuable trade chip to make this happen. I simply see a player who epitomizes the over aggressiveness which has plagued our lineup for years and don't get excited over the premise of him being one of the key pieces of the franchise.

 

You do realize Castro, at 22 with a ton of development ahead of him, is very close to being the best SS in baseball. What do you expect him to be in, say, 2-3 years? As David said, he's a 4-5 win player right now, he's going to get better. Yes he'd be even better if his walk rate improves, which I think it will (though to what degree I don't know). But still, he's still on track to be the best SS in the game with his current walk rate.

 

It would, and should, take a stupidly great package to get him. Like two young, current ML who are also getting close to being stars, and that's a starting point.

[Vanilla Ice]

I also think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that "over aggressiveness has plagued our lineup for years".

 

As recently as 2008, we led the NL in BB. In 2009, we were 6th our of 16. While it *technically* has been years, it hasn't been that long.

[StylesClash]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

Would you not agree that in order for this offense to improve and become more consistent our ability to work the count and draw walks needs to improve? Why not use our most valuable trade chip to make this happen. I simply see a player who epitomizes the over aggressiveness which has plagued our lineup for years and don't get excited over the premise of him being one of the key pieces of the franchise.

 

You do realize Castro, at 22 with a ton of development ahead of him, is very close to being the best SS in baseball. What do you expect him to be in, say, 2-3 years? As David said, he's a 4-5 win player right now, he's going to get better. Yes he'd be even better if his walk rate improves, which I think it will (though to what degree I don't know). But still, he's still on track to be the best SS in the game with his current walk rate.

 

It would, and should, take a stupidly great package to get him. Like two young, current ML who are also getting close to being stars, and that's a starting point.

 

You're telling me that a player who is barely getting on base at a rate above 300, and isn't exactly having a prodigious season in terms of power, is about to become the best shortstop in baseball? I would take Elvis Andrus over Castro any day of the week. More range, better base stealer, more disciplined at the plate, more likely to remain at shortstop long term. The fact is even if Castro is outproducing Andrus in terms of WAR, you can't have a lineup full of over aggressive hitters and expect to succeed.

[StylesClash]

I also think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that "over aggressiveness has plagued our lineup for years".

 

As recently as 2008, we led the NL in BB. In 2009, we were 6th our of 16. While it *technically* has been years, it hasn't been that long.

 

Other than that one season would you not agree that this has been a team known for not taking walks and relying way too heavily on the home run.

[Guest]

The fact is even if Castro is outproducing Andrus in terms of WAR, you can't have a lineup full of over aggressive hitters and expect to succeed.

 

If they're all 4-5 WAR players, you sure as hell can.

[Vanilla Ice]

I also think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that "over aggressiveness has plagued our lineup for years".

 

As recently as 2008, we led the NL in BB. In 2009, we were 6th our of 16. While it *technically* has been years, it hasn't been that long.

 

Other than that one season would you not agree that this has been a team known for not taking walks and relying way too heavily on the home run.

Definitely, but that has way more to do with Jim Hendry than Starlin Castro.

 

As far as the Cubs having too many over aggressive hitters in the future, that is not going to be true. Jackson, Rizzo, and Castro are the three main future positional pieces and Jackson and Rizzo have both shown solid patience in the minors. It's also not out of the question for Castro to develop much more patience.

[StylesClash]

I also think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that "over aggressiveness has plagued our lineup for years".

 

As recently as 2008, we led the NL in BB. In 2009, we were 6th our of 16. While it *technically* has been years, it hasn't been that long.

 

Other than that one season would you not agree that this has been a team known for not taking walks and relying way too heavily on the home run.

Definitely, but that has way more to do with Jim Hendry than Starlin Castro.

 

As far as the Cubs having too many over aggressive hitters in the future, that is not going to be true. Jackson, Rizzo, and Castro are the three main future positional pieces and Jackson and Rizzo have both shown solid patience in the minors. It's also not out of the question for Castro to develop much more patience.

 

Not ready to get on the Brett Jackson bandwagon yet. I like his walk rates but the man is striking out way too much to put up a quality OBP. Considering Jackson is averaging over a strikeout per game at Triple-A it isn't inconceivable that once promoted he could be a candidate to K 200 times per season.

 

Take a look at BJ Upton's 2011 stat line. That's what I'm expecting from Brett Jackson (minus the stolen bases). Not a bad player, mind you. Just not one that I would consider a building block of the franchise.

[17 Seconds]

sounds like you're obsessed with obp but are unwilling to look deeper at what makes players valuable.

 

yea, we have this 22 year old shortstop who will hit for great average, hit for good power, provide value on the basepaths, and play average (at least) defense. but he doesn't walk, so that means the other 7 guys in the lineup won't walk either or something. we need to get a shortstop who does all those amazing things, AND walks a lot. until thing, i see nothing exciting about castro.

[CubColtPacer]

Doesn't take walks, will never be a 30+ homer a year player, legitimate possibility of needing to move to third base as his body matures and thickens. Why Castro is considered our franchise is beyond me. Granted this isn't an organization known for developing good hitters, so I suppose its easy for others to get excited over a young player with superb contact skills.

 

PS: I'm not naive, so I realize the responses to my post will more than likely be simple short replies saying no, without refuting my perspective at all. It just boggles my mind that over aggressiveness has been the biggest weakness of the Cub lineup for years now, and the player who is hyped over everyone else on the roster has this trait in spades.

 

 

Because despite not taking walks right now, he's a 22 year old 4-5 WAR player at this point.

 

You're not accounting for positional value (and having to move off SS is speculation at best, as right now he both appears to be greatly improved and grades statistically as one of the best at his position). You're also looking at him through an outdated offensive lens. Lots of people are guilty of looking at most players this way right now. The environment is much different than it was even a few years ago.

 

Would you not agree that in order for this offense to improve and become more consistent our ability to work the count and draw walks needs to improve? Why not use our most valuable trade chip to make this happen. I simply see a player who epitomizes the over aggressiveness which has plagued our lineup for years and don't get excited over the premise of him being one of the key pieces of the franchise.

 

You do realize Castro, at 22 with a ton of development ahead of him, is very close to being the best SS in baseball. What do you expect him to be in, say, 2-3 years? As David said, he's a 4-5 win player right now, he's going to get better. Yes he'd be even better if his walk rate improves, which I think it will (though to what degree I don't know). But still, he's still on track to be the best SS in the game with his current walk rate.

 

It would, and should, take a stupidly great package to get him. Like two young, current ML who are also getting close to being stars, and that's a starting point.

 

The fact is even if Castro is outproducing Andrus in terms of WAR, you can't have a lineup full of over aggressive hitters and expect to succeed.

 

You can, but it is admittedly difficult. But that's because there are very few players with as elite of a hit tool as Castro (which you need if you're going to be overly aggressive) so it's hard to build a lineup of those types of players. Also, other positions require so much more offense that it's hard to be good at those positions with that type of approach.

 

Castro definitely has flaws. He will likely never be the best Cubs hitter in his prime. But that doesn't mean he won't be the best Cubs player. Getting a .825-.850 OPS out of your SS (even if it's weighted towards slugging) with above average defense is more valuable than getting a .900 OPS out of 1B.

 

As for Andrus, I understand your reasons for wanting to take Andrus right now. But he's pretty much topped out as a player, and Castro's room to grow in the power and patience departments gives him quite a bit more upside. So it really depends on whether you'd rather have the higher floor or the higher ceiling.

[Guest]

I also think it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that "over aggressiveness has plagued our lineup for years".

 

As recently as 2008, we led the NL in BB. In 2009, we were 6th our of 16. While it *technically* has been years, it hasn't been that long.

 

Other than that one season would you not agree that this has been a team known for not taking walks and relying way too heavily on the home run.

Definitely, but that has way more to do with Jim Hendry than Starlin Castro.

 

As far as the Cubs having too many over aggressive hitters in the future, that is not going to be true. Jackson, Rizzo, and Castro are the three main future positional pieces and Jackson and Rizzo have both shown solid patience in the minors. It's also not out of the question for Castro to develop much more patience.

 

I wouldn't have Jackson is as a main positional piece just yet.

[Gilby]

I find it interesting everyone points to 3B when talking about where Starlin would move. His best defensive attribute is range and he struggles most with errors. I don't see how moving to 3B helps either of those. Fortunately, we have a smart FO, so he won't be switching positions for a very long time.

[Guest]

 

Take a look at BJ Upton's 2011 stat line. That's what I'm expecting from Brett Jackson (minus the stolen bases). Not a bad player, mind you. Just not one that I would consider a building block of the franchise.

 

Upton's steals and defense are what make him very valuable. If Jackson had those, he'd be a great player.

[Cubswin11]

I find it interesting everyone points to 3B when talking about where Starlin would move. His best defensive attribute is range and he struggles most with errors. I don't see how moving to 3B helps either of those. Fortunately, we have a smart FO, so he won't be switching positions for a very long time.

I coompletely agree with this. The only people who think Castro should move to 3B anytime in the near future are the dumb [expletive] fans and schmucks in the media who think FLD% and Errors are the baseline to judge defense. I don't think there is really anyone on here who wants Castro to move to 3B right now, or anytime soon. He might need to move to 3B once he starts to exit his prime years and starts to regress physically but that's 10 +/- years from now.

 

 

I know the advanced metrics on defense are still being ironed out and fluctuate from season to season, but are they still saying Castro is playing well above defense this year?

Edited June 13, 2012 by Cubswin11

[Guest]

I find it interesting everyone points to 3B when talking about where Starlin would move. His best defensive attribute is range and he struggles most with errors. I don't see how moving to 3B helps either of those. Fortunately, we have a smart FO, so he won't be switching positions for a very long time.

Werd

[Guest]

I find it interesting everyone points to 3B when talking about where Starlin would move. His best defensive attribute is range and he struggles most with errors. I don't see how moving to 3B helps either of those. Fortunately, we have a smart FO, so he won't be switching positions for a very long time.

The only people who think Castro should move to 3B anytime in the near future are the dumb [expletive] fans and schmucks in the media who think FLD% and Errors are the baseline to judge defense. I don't think there is really anyone on here who wants Castro to move to 3B right now, or anytime soon. He might need to move to 3B once he starts to exit his prime years and starts to regress physically but that's 10 +/- years from now.

 

 

I know the advanced metrics on defense are still being ironed out and fluctuate from season to season, but are they still saying Castro is playing well above defense this year?

 

He's currently 3.6 runs above replacement defensively on Fangraphs...and his dWAR on BR is currently 1.4

[Gilby]

I find it interesting everyone points to 3B when talking about where Starlin would move. His best defensive attribute is range and he struggles most with errors. I don't see how moving to 3B helps either of those. Fortunately, we have a smart FO, so he won't be switching positions for a very long time.

I coompletely agree with this. The only people who think Castro should move to 3B anytime in the near future are the dumb [expletive] fans and schmucks in the media who think FLD% and Errors are the baseline to judge defense. I don't think there is really anyone on here who wants Castro to move to 3B right now, or anytime soon. He might need to move to 3B once he starts to exit his prime years and starts to regress physically but that's 10 +/- years from now.

 

 

I know the advanced metrics on defense are still being ironed out and fluctuate from season to season, but are they still saying Castro is playing well above defense this year?

 

Yeah, by "everyone" I meant everyone who talks about him switching positions in the media and such. I didn't mean that everyone on here wants him to move.

[Guest]

I think the assumption that Castro may have to move eventually is based on him filling out and losing range as he matures. Of course, the power(and in a way, the patience) that people think he needs to be a superstar would also logically follow that, so I don't really see a problem.

[Vanilla Ice]

Jackson has a higher bust probability than most good prospects do at AAA, but I still think of him as a part of the future core.

 

In terms of hitters within the Cubs organization right now and their likelihood of being at least an average starter in 2014 or 2015, I think the order goes

1)Castro

2)Rizzo

3)Jackson

 

There is a dropoff between #2 and #3, but I think the dropoff between Jackson and whoever #4 is (Barney?) is much larger.

 

Anyways, that's my (WSR esque) reasoning for still considering Jackson part of the core.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Vanilla Ice

[SouthSideRyan]

Starlin Castro is 22 years old.