Joe Paterno

[jersey cubs fan]

I think PSU football is gonna feel this one without any help from the NCAA

 

mamas don't let your babies grow up to be exposed to pedophile enablers and apologists.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

clearly the response (to simply bar him from football facilities) was inadequate, but it's not really similar to the case where the active head basketball coach at baylor was making tuition payments for active players, covering up false drug tests, committing recruiting violations and then lying about the circumstances of a player's murder. that falls much more under the realm of ncaa guidelines than a head coach and grad assistant who fulfilled their legal obligation to report an incident involving a former coach using football facilities, but (many argue) failed their responsibilities in a moral sense.

 

You are right that it's not similar.

 

The Baylor coach defamed a dead person to cover up his own NCAA violations. The Penn State coach at best passively allowed a predatory pedophile to continue to use his reputation as a former PSU coach to lure children into his clutches.

 

If the NCAA decides it doesn't have jurisdiction, the university itself should shut down the football program.

[BeerHere]

I think PSU football is gonna feel this one without any help from the NCAA

Agreed but I would be shocked if the NCAA did anything to the football program specifically. It seems like a stretch to me but I could be wrong.

[TruffleShuffle]

Assuming the grand jury report is true, then it is indisputable that in the game of telephone from GA > Coach > Higher-ups, the description of the incident became euphamized.

 

no, that's wrong. the grad assistant was interviewed by the AD and some other administrator. what appears to have happened, and what nobody is alleging didn't happen, is that the grad assistant told the coach (who again, is a conservative old man and coaching icon) that there was inappropriate sexual conduct between a former coach and a young boy. the coach relayed this information to the AD, who then interviewed the grad assistant about what he witnessed. the AD and other administrator are being prosecuted because they repeatedly claimed that they did not know the seriousness of what had occurred, which the grand jury did not find credible given the testimony of the grad assistant and what he claimed he told them during his interview with them.

there is plenty to criticize about joe paterno's actions without making things up or assuming things that are unlikely to be true.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think PSU football is gonna feel this one without any help from the NCAA

Agreed but I would be shocked if the NCAA did anything to the football program specifically. It seems like a stretch to me but I could be wrong.

 

If Penn State cleans house they will probably leave it alone. But if all they do is a CYA charade they might get involved.

[wade]

We don't have enough evidence to know which of the three it is, but No. 2 sounds awfully plausible to me.

 

Not reporting it immediately to law enforcement is reprehensible in my opinion, but I can't even fathom how much of a dirtbag he is if he covered it up.

 

I think there's a good chance Paterno also knew of prior allegations against Sandusky at the time the G.A. reported it.

[BeerHere]

Assuming the grand jury report is true, then it is indisputable that in the game of telephone from GA > Coach > Higher-ups, the description of the incident became euphamized.

 

no, that's wrong. the grad assistant was interviewed by the AD and some other administrator. what appears to have happened, and what nobody is alleging didn't happen, is that the grad assistant told the coach (who again, is a conservative old man and coaching icon) that there was inappropriate sexual conduct between a former coach and a young boy. the coach relayed this information to the AD, who then interviewed the grad assistant about what he witnessed. the AD and other administrator are being prosecuted because they repeatedly claimed that they did not know the seriousness of what had occurred, which the grand jury did not find credible given the testimony of the grad assistant and what he claimed he told them during his interview with them.

there is plenty to criticize about joe paterno's actions without making things up or assuming things that are unlikely to be true.

Why is it important to point out that he's a coaching icon? That is the second time in this thread that you've made that statement. I do understand your point about him being a conservative old man but being an icon isn't at all pertinent when it comes to moral responsibility. This is the reason that I asked about your affiliation with PSU. I feel like others in this thread know you're a booster or something that I'm not aware of.

[TruffleShuffle]

If the NCAA decides it doesn't have jurisdiction, the university itself should shut down the football program.

 

that is not a reasonable response. there are thousands of people in the state college area whose livelihood depends on the football program. it would be extraordinarily stupid to harm all of those people because a small handful of administrators and coaches acted improperly. you get rid of the people involved (which will end up including the president of the university, the guy who oversees the entire athletic department, and the head coach of the football program), you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

[SouthSideRyan]

So what did Paterno think McQueary saw? Judging by the non-action by the AD, it seems safe to assume he either thought nothing came of it, and then saw fit to employ the guy who falsely accused his good friend of sexual assault for the next 10 years OR thought McQueary was right and didn't feel the need to do anything more than tell the AD.

[BeerHere]

Thanks goony...that song is stuck in my head now.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Assuming the grand jury report is true, then it is indisputable that in the game of telephone from GA > Coach > Higher-ups, the description of the incident became euphamized.

 

no, that's wrong. the grad assistant was interviewed by the AD and some other administrator. what appears to have happened, and what nobody is alleging didn't happen, is that the grad assistant told the coach (who again, is a conservative old man and coaching icon) that there was inappropriate sexual conduct between a former coach and a young boy. the coach relayed this information to the AD, who then interviewed the grad assistant about what he witnessed. the AD and other administrator are being prosecuted because they repeatedly claimed that they did not know the seriousness of what had occurred, which the grand jury did not find credible given the testimony of the grad assistant and what he claimed he told them during his interview with them.

there is plenty to criticize about joe paterno's actions without making things up or assuming things that are unlikely to be true.

 

Damn your fanboy apologies for forcing me to go back to the grand jury report.

 

The grand jury report is quite specific.

 

It describes in detail what the GA saw. It then clearly states that he "reported what he had seen" to Paterno. There is nothing in the grand jury report that says that the grad assistant described it as "inappropriate sexual contact" or that he spared Paterno the details. That is something that PSU fanboys have made up as a possible explanation to try and explain the discrepancy between the grad assistant "reported what he had seen" and Paterno reporting to the AD that the GA had seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature."

 

Somewhere along the line, it got changed from a graphic description of anal rape to "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature." There are two people who could have made that change. Paterno clearly had means and motive, so it's not reckless to speculate whether he was the one who made the change.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Hairyducked Idiot

[Hairyducked Idiot]

If the NCAA decides it doesn't have jurisdiction, the university itself should shut down the football program.

 

that is not a reasonable response. there are thousands of people in the state college area whose livelihood depends on the football program. it would be extraordinarily stupid to harm all of those people because a small handful of administrators and coaches acted improperly. you get rid of the people involved (which will end up including the president of the university, the guy who oversees the entire athletic department, and the head coach of the football program), you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

If you want to make sure something like this never happens again, you have to set an example. The next time a coach has a chance to carry water for his buddy and allow terrible things to happen, I don't want them remembering that all that happened was that Paterno was allowed to gracefully retire.

[treebird]

If the NCAA decides it doesn't have jurisdiction, the university itself should shut down the football program.

 

that is not a reasonable response. there are thousands of people in the state college area whose livelihood depends on the football program. it would be extraordinarily stupid to harm all of those people because a small handful of administrators and coaches acted improperly. you get rid of the people involved (which will end up including the president of the university, the guy who oversees the entire athletic department, and the head coach of the football program), you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

one way to ensure that this doesn't happen again would be to set up a local governmental body that people could call when they witnessed crimes or were informed of serious crimes that occurred within their organizations. it could have the power to investigate people who were accused of crimes and arrest them and charge them when necessary, eventually leading to punishment for those found to be guilty of crimes. it would need a catchy name, something about how they represented the people, but they were also chill so you could trust them. maybe use a shortened form of populi for people and a word for something really cold. pol-ice. something like that. either way, it is too bad pol-ice didn't exist back then, because then this all could have been avoided (think how easy it would've been for everyone involved to just dial a number and inform the pol-ice of the child rapist they had caught!). luckily, with truffle's strong leadership, the university will "take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again," since the current system simply doesn't allow for the resolution of such a problem.

[TruffleShuffle]

So what did Paterno think McQueary saw? Judging by the non-action by the AD, it seems safe to assume he either thought nothing came of it, and then saw fit to employ the guy who falsely accused his good friend of sexual assault for the next 10 years OR thought McQueary was right and didn't feel the need to do anything more than tell the AD.

 

right and it's certainly reasonable to say that paterno had a moral failing in not following up with mcqueary and/or the administration to get more facts, or to press the parties to get the university police involved. i'm not going to argue that. i'm arguing with kyle's assertions that have been either factually wrong or making assumptions that are based on nothing.

[Prizefight]

you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

 

What steps possibly need to be taken? Is it necessary for there to be a line in policy saying child rape is bad and maybe someone should call the police?

 

It's not unique to Penn State, but this is obviously the most egregious example of where the football team and the money and power it commands becomes out of control. Short of drastic changes to the culture of college sports in general, I don't get how you 'prevent' this from happening. The coaches and administrators in charge at these schools clearly become corrupted with the power, money and influence they have.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So what did Paterno think McQueary saw? Judging by the non-action by the AD, it seems safe to assume he either thought nothing came of it, and then saw fit to employ the guy who falsely accused his good friend of sexual assault for the next 10 years OR thought McQueary was right and didn't feel the need to do anything more than tell the AD.

 

right and it's certainly reasonable to say that paterno had a moral failing in not following up with mcqueary and/or the administration to get more facts, or to press the parties to get the university police involved. i'm not going to argue that. i'm arguing with kyle's assertions that have been either factually wrong or making assumptions that are based on nothing.

 

What is your assumption that the GA withheld details from Paterno based on?

[jersey cubs fan]

If the NCAA decides it doesn't have jurisdiction, the university itself should shut down the football program.

 

that is not a reasonable response. there are thousands of people in the state college area whose livelihood depends on the football program. it would be extraordinarily stupid to harm all of those people because a small handful of administrators and coaches acted improperly. you get rid of the people involved (which will end up including the president of the university, the guy who oversees the entire athletic department, and the head coach of the football program), you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

one way to ensure that this doesn't happen again would be to set up a local governmental body that people could call when they witnessed crimes or were informed of serious crimes that occurred within their organizations. it could have the power to investigate people who were accused of crimes and arrest them and charge them when necessary, eventually leading to punishment for those found to be guilty of crimes. it would need a catchy name, something about how they represented the people, but they were also chill so you could trust them. maybe use a shortened form of populi for people and a word for something really cold. pol-ice. something like that. either way, it is too bad pol-ice didn't exist back then, because then this all could have been avoided (think how easy it would've been for everyone involved to just dial a number and inform the pol-ice of the child rapist they had caught!). luckily, with truffle's strong leadership, the university will "take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again," since the current system simply doesn't allow for the resolution of such a problem.

 

Ain't no law around here lawdog.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

"Hey coach, Jerry's [expletive] kids in the [expletive] again."

[BeerHere]

Assume for a second that all this is true, and that the GA did restate it for Paterno to save a conservative old man from the dirty details. Everyone involved, including Paterno still has a concrete moral responsibility to go straight to the police with what they knew. The GA, his dad, Paterno, the AD, the university president, all of them through their lack of action showed their loyalties toward the accused and the reputation of the university over law and the safety of a child from a known pedophile.

 

Despicable human beings.

[SouthSideRyan]

you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

 

What steps possibly need to be taken? Is it necessary for there to be a line in policy saying child rape is bad

 

Should I not have done that? I'm sorry, I'm gonna have to plead ignorance on this thing, because if I had known that sort of thing was frowned upon...

[SouthSideRyan]

How much could McQueary have tamed it down for him? Isn't saying a kid was fondled or inappropriately touched bad enough for Paterno to do something further without having to hear about the actual penetration?

[TruffleShuffle]

one way to ensure that this doesn't happen again would be to set up a local governmental body that people could call when they witnessed crimes or were informed of serious crimes that occurred within their organizations. it could have the power to investigate people who were accused of crimes and arrest them and charge them when necessary, eventually leading to punishment for those found to be guilty of crimes. it would need a catchy name, something about how they represented the people, but they were also chill so you could trust them. maybe use a shortened form of populi for people and a word for something really cold. pol-ice. something like that. either way, it is too bad pol-ice didn't exist back then, because then this all could have been avoided (think how easy it would've been for everyone involved to just dial a number and inform the pol-ice of the child rapist they had caught!). luckily, with truffle's strong leadership, the university will "take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again," since the current system simply doesn't allow for the resolution of such a problem.

 

not sure why i'm bothering to respond to this. obviously there is a procedure in place to investigate sexual crimes and yet this fell through the cracks for many years. first, there were allegations in 1998 that were investigated but not prosecuted. why was that the case? could more people involved with his charity (the second mile) or the football program have been notified that sandusky was investigated for sexual misconduct, to minimize the amount of time he spent alone around minors.

 

you put in place a new set of procedures mandating that anyone with first-hand knowledge of sexual abuse of a minor is to go immediately to the police. current state law does not mandate this, so you make that a policy for all university staff. that would have made it more likely that the janitor who witnessed misconduct in 2000 would have reported it instead of keeping it to himself and a couple of co-workers. it would have meant that mcqueary or paterno likely would have gone directly to the police instead of passing the information along to administrators, who ultimately failed in their legal responsibility.

 

limit access to football facilities to current staff members. things like that would be effective in preventing future sexual abuse from occurring and, if it did occur, would greatly increase the likelihood that it would be reported immediately by any witnesses.

[jersey cubs fan]

you take steps to ensure that something like this never happens again, and you move on from there.

 

 

What steps possibly need to be taken? Is it necessary for there to be a line in policy saying child rape is bad and maybe someone should call the police?

 

It's not unique to Penn State, but this is obviously the most egregious example of where the football team and the money and power it commands becomes out of control. Short of drastic changes to the culture of college sports in general, I don't get how you 'prevent' this from happening. The coaches and administrators in charge at these schools clearly become corrupted with the power, money and influence they have.

 

Penn State is fairly unique. Penn State football is State College, and Joe Paterno is Penn State football. The whole big fish in a small pond thing isn't that unique, but typically you have a strong leader at the head of that situation. Joe Paterno isn't a real leader. He's a figurehead. This is a pretty obvious example of the whole "fish rotting from the head down" situation. There is a leadership vacuum in State College and specifically the football team and athletic department. JoePa decides whether or not he stays, but that's about all he does. He's the head coach but he doesn't coach. When you have such a rudderless ship as that organization, where the head coach's boss has virtually no power over that head coach and the head coach has no power but the power to say he's going to stay there you have no accountability. You have no real "buck stops here" guy and situations like this can arise and be left to fester without a real leader doing a damn thing about it.

 

It's not really the culture of college sports that allows this to happen, after all, it happens all too often in other places. It's the culture of Penn State football and State College Pennsylvania that allows this to happen.

[jersey cubs fan]

How much could McQueary have tamed it down for him? Isn't saying a kid was fondled or inappropriately touched bad enough for Paterno to do something further without having to hear about the actual penetration?

 

Times change, maybe Paterno thought this younger generation was all for diddling kids.

[BeerHere]

How much could McQueary have tamed it down for him? Isn't saying a kid was fondled or inappropriately touched bad enough for Paterno to do something further without having to hear about the actual penetration?

Agreed and you would have to think that if it was uncomfortable enough for him to have to water it down the for the coach that he would have to have been absolutely certain in what he saw in the first place.