Hoyer, McLeod officially join Cubs

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'm actually a big fan of Vitters, but I think I'd do that deal if I had to. .

 

I would too. I just don't think it'll come into play like that.

 

If a Headley deal was to happen, I'd try to sneak out Clayton Richard with him. He hasn't been much, but he's got good arm strength as a lefty. Something like a Gorzellany type pickup, except within a bigger deal. Just someone to give some #5 innings too....or a candidate anyway.

[Guest]

Colorado has Wiggington under contract for 2012 with a 2013 option.

 

They really didn't want to turn to Wigginton at 3rd last year. Has that changed? (I really don't know).

They didn't want to turn to him, but they did end up playing him more than 3x as much as Stewart. I don't think they necessarily want him as their full time 3B, but he did okay there considering league averages at the position. He's also under contract for 1-2 more seasons.

 

I don't think they are on the verge of non-tendering Stewart or anything along those lines. But if they ask for anything like McNutt at this point then you walk away.

 

With Headley, I think they start with McNutt and add from there. Heck, they may start with Cashner and add from there.

[Guest]

Given Stewart's performance this past season and losing his job, I'd say the acquisition cost would almost certainly be lower.

 

There still needs to be motivation to move him out. If he's out of options, I could see them having some motivation if they've completely given up on him. But considering he's only had the one awful year, I don't know if that's a good assumption to make.

 

I think it's just as easy to assume that they were in the middle of a pennant race (at the time) and made a rash decision to get some quick offense and they plan on giving him the job again this season. I just don't see the likelihood that the asking prices are so different that Stewart is your #2 option and Headley doesn't even make your top 4-5.

Again, I reconsidered that in my article. If the costs to acquire Headley are reasonable, he's obviously preferable to Stewart at this point. However, I believe the cost would be far higher for Headley. Can't back that up with anything other than 2011 performance & playing time and 2012 alternatives under contract, though.

[dew1679666265]

I think there's very little chance that the Padres would go after Vitters. Way too many corner options in the system in the IF. Doesn't seem to be a fit defensively for Petco, to say the least.

 

Since we're just shooting ideas around, I think they would ask for McNutt, and I'd be fine putting him in a deal (they could use an upper level arm, as most of their top tier arm assets are in the lower level). It'd have to be more than McNutt, though.

 

Wow, McNutt's a bit much I'm thinking. I could see them asking for him, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving that much up for either. I'm thinking I'd only give McNutt in a package for a cornerstone type player and I'm just not sure Headley or Stewart is that.

[dew1679666265]

Again, I reconsidered that in my article. If the costs to acquire Headley are reasonable, he's obviously preferable to Stewart at this point. However, I believe the cost would be far higher for Headley. Can't back that up with anything other than 2011 performance & playing time and 2012 alternatives under contract, though.

 

I did read the article and saw that difference, but lazily didn't go back and check to see which came first - the post or the article. If the article is the more recent opinion, then I'll quit being argumentative.

 

Though I still question the far part of Headley's cost being higher than Stewart's. More yes, but far more I'm just not sure I buy. Like you said, though, it's more gut feeling for us than anything provable.

[toonsterwu]

I think there's very little chance that the Padres would go after Vitters. Way too many corner options in the system in the IF. Doesn't seem to be a fit defensively for Petco, to say the least.

 

Since we're just shooting ideas around, I think they would ask for McNutt, and I'd be fine putting him in a deal (they could use an upper level arm, as most of their top tier arm assets are in the lower level). It'd have to be more than McNutt, though.

 

Wow, McNutt's a bit much I'm thinking. I could see them asking for him, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving that much up for either. I'm thinking I'd only give McNutt in a package for a cornerstone type player and I'm just not sure Headley or Stewart is that.

 

I like McNutt, but too much for a package involving Headley? We're talking about a young third baseman hitting his prime with 2 cost-controlled years left versus a package led by a AA power arm with some issues. I've seen enough of McNutt this year to think that he's going a bit under-hyped relative to other prospects, but there are definitely some issues to work out.

 

But anyhow, that's me. McNutt wouldn't be an issue for me. How much more than McNutt would be an issue. I could also see them target Matt Szczur to headline a package instead.

 

I'm as guilty as the next fan in occasionally overhyping our prospects, but we really don't have an elite prospect, or an upper level guy that's close to elite. Brett Jackson is the closest. Relative to what teams tend to look for in deals involving prospects, I think that needs to be kept in mind. Don't get me wrong - if Headley's cost is significantly lower than a package starting with McNutt or Szczur ... then heck yeah.

 

Edit: I'm not sure I keep on thinking Headley only has 2 years of cost-controlled left. He should have three. I keep forgetting that Chase got Super Two status this year, and hence that's why he's on Arb 2.

Edited November 1, 2011 by toonsterwu

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

They didn't want to turn to him, but they did end up playing him more than 3x as much as Stewart. I don't think they necessarily want him as their full time 3B, but he did okay there considering league averages at the position. He's also under contract for 1-2 more seasons.

 

I don't think they are on the verge of non-tendering Stewart or anything along those lines. But if they ask for anything like McNutt at this point then you walk away.

 

With Headley, I think they start with McNutt and add from there. Heck, they may start with Cashner and add from there.

 

May, but probably won't unless they're trolling. McNutt wouldn't be so bad...TINSTAAPP...just get another one or dozen in the draft/amateur word...they'd recover quickly enough there.

[dew1679666265]

I like McNutt, but too much for a package involving Headley? We're talking about a young third baseman hitting his prime with 2 cost-controlled years left versus a package led by a AA power arm with some issues. I've seen enough of McNutt this year to think that he's going a bit under-hyped relative to other prospects, but there are definitely some issues to work out.

 

But anyhow, that's me. McNutt wouldn't be an issue for me. How much more than McNutt would be an issue. I could also see them target Matt Szczur to headline a package instead.

 

I'm as guilty as the next fan in occasionally overhyping our prospects, but we really don't have an elite prospect, or an upper level guy that's close to elite. Brett Jackson is the closest. Relative to what teams tend to look for in deals involving prospects, I think that needs to be kept in mind. Don't get me wrong - if Headley's cost is significantly lower than a package starting with McNutt or Szczur ... then heck yeah.

 

I do agree that McNutt is hardly an elite prospect, however he's not a longshot to make the majors and be productive either. Given Headley's power issues and the lack of certainty that the power will improve upon moving to Wrigley, I don't see him as a good bet to become anything more than a nice, cheap option that you let walk as soon as he hits FA. As I see a very good chance that McNutt is at least that type player, I'm not keen on the idea of making that swap.

 

To put it another way, we got Garza for Archer/Lee/Guyer/Fuld. I was against the trade at the time, but did acknowledge that Garza was at least a very good pitcher and a borderline elite one, I just questioned whether he'd make that next step. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think McNutt is much, if any, worse than Archer as a prospect and maybe better. To me Headley is a much more questionable bet to become a cornerstone type player than Garza was at the time, and my thought is that McNutt in a package ought to get us better than a guy who really needs to improve to reach elite status.

[toonsterwu]

Last year, McNutt was largely considered a tiny notch below Archer. This year, I think that notch is wider and I think McNutt's value now is probably quite a bit lower than Archer's was last year (but obviously, that's my opinion). The one thing that few challenge about Archer is his stuff. It's there, and he's viewed as having a potential floor of a late inning arm. There's a bit more questions about McNutt's stuff and mechanics this year. I think that's related to his injuries, and I've said before that the breaking ball I saw from him this summer still looked really good, but you do hear a few more snippets of concern.

 

If you view McNutt as only going in a trade that can net us a more solid elite guy, then I'm not sure there's any trade that we can effectively make this off-season. I can defend McNutt, but there are a lot of power arms that flash some potential on the breaking ball. Again, just my opinion, but 3 years of a cost controlled positional asset in his prime, at a weak (someone did a study awhile ago, forgot where, probably fangraphs, where 3rd basemen just weren't hitting all that much) who is around a 3 WAR player and could be better in a different situation is going to cost a solid talent and more.

[dew1679666265]

Last year, McNutt was largely considered a tiny notch below Archer. This year, I think that notch is wider and I think McNutt's value now is probably quite a bit lower than Archer's was last year (but obviously, that's my opinion). The one thing that few challenge about Archer is his stuff. It's there, and he's viewed as having a potential floor of a late inning arm. There's a bit more questions about McNutt's stuff and mechanics this year. I think that's related to his injuries, and I've said before that the breaking ball I saw from him this summer still looked really good, but you do hear a few more snippets of concern.

 

If you view McNutt as only going in a trade that can net us a more solid elite guy, then I'm not sure there's any trade that we can effectively make this off-season. I can defend McNutt, but there are a lot of power arms that flash some potential on the breaking ball. Again, just my opinion, but 3 years of a cost controlled positional asset in his prime, at a weak (someone did a study awhile ago, forgot where, probably fangraphs, where 3rd basemen just weren't hitting all that much) who is around a 3 WAR player and could be better in a different situation is going to cost a solid talent and more.

 

Honestly, I'm generally in favor of not making trades this offseason. The only one I've really gotten behind is the Danks trade and that's one that I'd equate very much to getting Garza. I'd be more than willing to move McNutt in a package for Danks (though that one may take Cashner).

 

I guess my thought is if McNutt's value has dropped that much in a year's time then you're selling low on him if you deal him now. Unless you really believe he won't rebound, then it seems like better use of the asset to keep him and give him the opportunity to rebound. If that means don't make a trade of significance this offseason, I'm ok with that - especially since our needs could more than adequately be filled through FA (as easy as signing Pujols/Prince/Wilson can be).

[Rob]

I'd rather have Callaspo than Headley given what they are likely to cost.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Honestly, I'm generally in favor of not making trades this offseason. The only one I've really gotten behind is the Danks trade and that's one that I'd equate very much to getting Garza. I'd be more than willing to move McNutt in a package for Danks (though that one may take Cashner).

 

I guess my thought is if McNutt's value has dropped that much in a year's time then you're selling low on him if you deal him now. Unless you really believe he won't rebound, then it seems like better use of the asset to keep him and give him the opportunity to rebound. If that means don't make a trade of significance this offseason, I'm ok with that - especially since our needs could more than adequately be filled through FA (as easy as signing Pujols/Prince/Wilson can be).

 

I wouldn't give up Cashner for Danks.

 

Agreed on McNutt, and also have to agree with toonster on the analysis of Archer/McNutt. I was writing the same thing then I guess wandered off somewhere. I'm not in favor of actively going about not making trades otoh.

[Soul]

Front-office-wise, this is the greatest offseason in Cub history.

 

I can't wait for Spring Training.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'd rather have Callaspo than Headley given what they are likely to cost.

 

Why would Callaspo be cheaper coming off his best season while also entering your prime?

[dew1679666265]

I wouldn't give up Cashner for Danks.

 

Agreed on McNutt, and also have to agree with toonster on the analysis of Archer/McNutt. I was writing the same thing then I guess wandered off somewhere. I'm not in favor of actively going about not making trades otoh.

 

I'm not arguing actively refusing to make a trade, I just don't think we'll get good value for a lot of our players this offseason. Most of our needs can be filled through free agency either through elite stars (Pujols/Wilson/Prince) and/or cost effective, useful players (Francis/Chen/Bedard/Sizemore/etc). Since a number of our better prospects either are "untouchable" (Castro, BJax, Cashner) or had down years/questions (McNutt, Szczur, Vitters, Whitenack) that depress their value on the trade market, I'd rather just keep them and let them build their value back up rather than sell low on them.

 

If a good trade presents itself, I'm all for making it. But other than Danks I don't think there's anybody truly valuable that we really need to pursue this offseason. Nobody I've seen anyway - and that includes Wright.

[dew1679666265]

I'd rather have Callaspo than Headley given what they are likely to cost.

 

Why would Callaspo be cheaper coming off his best season while also entering your prime?

 

He'll turn 29 next year so he's been in his prime for a couple of years, but that's probably nitpicking a bit. The biggest reason he might come cheaper is because he has one less year of arbitration years. Headley/Stewart are FAs in 2015, Callaspo is a FA in 2014.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I'm not arguing actively refusing to make a trade, I just don't think we'll get good value for a lot of our players this offseason. Most of our needs can be filled through free agency either through elite stars (Pujols/Wilson/Prince) and/or cost effective, useful players (Francis/Chen/Bedard/Sizemore/etc). Since a number of our better prospects either are "untouchable" (Castro, BJax, Cashner) or had down years/questions (McNutt, Szczur, Vitters, Whitenack) that depress their value on the trade market, I'd rather just keep them and let them build their value back up rather than sell low on them.

 

If a good trade presents itself, I'm all for making it. But other than Danks I don't think there's anybody truly valuable that we really need to pursue this offseason. Nobody I've seen anyway - and that includes Wright.

 

I can agree with this. I'm a big believer in the FA market also.

[toonsterwu]

Last year, McNutt was largely considered a tiny notch below Archer. This year, I think that notch is wider and I think McNutt's value now is probably quite a bit lower than Archer's was last year (but obviously, that's my opinion). The one thing that few challenge about Archer is his stuff. It's there, and he's viewed as having a potential floor of a late inning arm. There's a bit more questions about McNutt's stuff and mechanics this year. I think that's related to his injuries, and I've said before that the breaking ball I saw from him this summer still looked really good, but you do hear a few more snippets of concern.

 

If you view McNutt as only going in a trade that can net us a more solid elite guy, then I'm not sure there's any trade that we can effectively make this off-season. I can defend McNutt, but there are a lot of power arms that flash some potential on the breaking ball. Again, just my opinion, but 3 years of a cost controlled positional asset in his prime, at a weak (someone did a study awhile ago, forgot where, probably fangraphs, where 3rd basemen just weren't hitting all that much) who is around a 3 WAR player and could be better in a different situation is going to cost a solid talent and more.

 

Honestly, I'm generally in favor of not making trades this offseason. The only one I've really gotten behind is the Danks trade and that's one that I'd equate very much to getting Garza. I'd be more than willing to move McNutt in a package for Danks (though that one may take Cashner).

 

I guess my thought is if McNutt's value has dropped that much in a year's time then you're selling low on him if you deal him now. Unless you really believe he won't rebound, then it seems like better use of the asset to keep him and give him the opportunity to rebound. If that means don't make a trade of significance this offseason, I'm ok with that - especially since our needs could more than adequately be filled through FA (as easy as signing Pujols/Prince/Wilson can be).

 

Overall, I'm not that enthused about making trades this off-season either. The system isn't really in a position to do THAT much in the trade market. That said, I would make an exception for a positional player entering his prime, is cost-controlled, and is at a position that we have a huge concern on and no long-term solution in sight (Vitters might not stick at 3rd, Flaherty/LeMahieu are still works in progress there, and Baez is far, far away. Don't know how Junior Lake would look if he was moved that direction). Now, it comes down to the evaluation of said player, and thankfully, more knowledgeable folks are doing it than me, but I think Headley is a guy I would gamble on (I'm not that interested in Callaspo - he's a far better fielder, but he's older and I'd like a little pop out of the position).

 

I wouldn't get ridiculous with an offer - I wouldn't do McNutt/Szczur for him, but I'd consider one of them and another prospect or two. That said, I can understand concerns on Headley. He's an average defensive third baseman, and while I like the fact that he adjusted his swing to deal with his environment, and steadily showed improvement in his approach, there's no guarantee that he can strike a better power/contact/discipline balance.

 

I'm not all that sure that I would be aggressive on any other position, including pitcher (the cost it would take to land Danks would be far higher (assuming we even have the chips that would intrigue Kenny, which is debatable), and combine that with the likely extension he'd need, and I'm just not a fan of it when I view 2012 as a steppingstone year. While many of the potential FA pitchers in the next FA class may not be available next year, there's bound to be a few guys that make it, and I'd rather save up the resources and spend on FA pitching). 3rd, though, is unique in the lack of system options that are close to ready, unless Vitters makes significant improvements defensively and a lack of prime targets out there in FA or a trade.

[Rob]

Presser starting now.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Press conference starting...

[jersey cubs fan]

Theo with the intros

[Rob]

Hoyer making it sound like he wants to keep Randy Bush around for longer than just this year.

[Fast Freddie Bynum]

"Uh"

[jersey cubs fan]

hoyer stressing the need to build a team that can be a contender every season, and the need for build from within

[jersey cubs fan]

A lot less excitement around this one. Still pretty crazy to realize the Cubs have a legit top notch front office.