Rickets gives Fleita 4-year extension

[Clem Fandango]

What exactly does Oneri Fleita do?

[davearm2]

What does someone like Fleita make per year? With the amount teams spend to waive players (like potentially Zambrano) with huge contracts still outstanding it doesn't seem like in the big picture it would be such a huge financial risk to potentially let him go with 3 years left on his contract if the new GM decides after the first year that Fleita is not up to his standards.

My thought exactly. It almost certainly wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to fire Fleita.

[Outshined_One]

What does someone like Fleita make per year? With the amount teams spend to waive players (like potentially Zambrano) with huge contracts still outstanding it doesn't seem like in the big picture it would be such a huge financial risk to potentially let him go with 3 years left on his contract if the new GM decides after the first year that Fleita is not up to his standards.

My thought exactly. It almost certainly wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to fire Fleita.

 

It would still be a waste of money. What business sense is there in extending Fleita for four years, bringing in a new GM, and firing Fleita immediately thereafter so the new GM can bring in his own guys?

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Id like Ricketts to be asked at the next press conference how extending Fleita is consistent w/ his desire to become a more statistical and technological based baseball organization, but I wont hold my breath.

 

Just because he wants the organization to be more statistical doesn't mean everyone in the office will be touting big backgrounds in analysis. Even in the day of numbers and Ivy Leaguers running baseball teams there's room for people in baseball with a baseball background. In fact, some would even argue that the numbers are not even all that hard to learn, and despite not touting a major background in that area most guys in today's FOs can pick up on what they like to look at statistically.

 

Surely you've noticed that nowadays any Dick, Tom, and Jerry can lean to the numbers side if they follow the game hard enough and that there's a gazillion different numbers to analyze players on. Numbers is one edge a FO can give itself.

 

I see this as similar to the Mets keeping John Rico despite the FO overhaul last year. It's an organization keeping it's touted young FO guys while it still can. I'm not sure what the big deal.

[idakepps]

Essentially what has happened is that Ricketts is giving Jim Hendry's right hand man an extension a few weeks after firing Hendry. We've already been told the new GM will report directly to Ricketts. So basically Ricketts taken the liberty of hiring the new GM's 2nd in command before the new GM himself has had the opportunity to do so. It's a fairly bizzare move.

 

At the very least Ricketts is telling the new GM:

 

"You're free to do what you want with this guy...but I really really like him and strongly think you ought to consider keeping him. Of course it's your choice, but I'm your boss, and I think you should keep him."

 

Put yourself in the position of the new GM. Do you want to walk into this kind of situation?

 

 

 

 

 

It also begs the question....if Ricketts likes Fleita so much, why isn't he just made the GM?

[TruffleShuffle]

It also begs the question....if Ricketts likes Fleita so much, why isn't he just made the GM?

 

it does not beg that question. at all.

[Tryptamine]

Id like Ricketts to be asked at the next press conference how extending Fleita is consistent w/ his desire to become a more statistical and technological based baseball organization, but I wont hold my breath.

 

Just because he wants the organization to be more statistical doesn't mean everyone in the office will be touting big backgrounds in analysis. Even in the day of numbers and Ivy Leaguers running baseball teams there's room for people in baseball with a baseball background. In fact, some would even argue that the numbers are not even all that hard to learn, and despite not touting a major background in that area most guys in today's FOs can pick up on what they like to look at statistically.

 

Surely you've noticed that nowadays any Dick, Tom, and Jerry can lean to the numbers side if they follow the game hard enough and that there's a gazillion different numbers to analyze players on. Numbers is one edge a FO can give itself.

 

I see this as similar to the Mets keeping John Rico despite the FO overhaul last year. It's an organization keeping it's touted young FO guys while it still can. I'm not sure what the big deal.

 

Fleita holds what is perhaps the most important position in the organization for embodying what your team's philosophies are about. His teaching has the biggest impact on the prospects of any one in the organization. If he's teaching them old timey baseball while the organization is preaching saber that's a pretty enormous problem.

[Tryptamine]

It also begs the question....if Ricketts likes Fleita so much, why isn't he just made the GM?

 

 

If this were to have happened, I'm not sure my fandom would have survived.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Essentially what has happened is that Ricketts is giving Jim Hendry's right hand man an extension a few weeks after firing Hendry. We've already been told the new GM will report directly to Ricketts. So basically Ricketts taken the liberty of hiring the new GM's 2nd in command before the new GM himself has had the opportunity to do so. It's a fairly bizzare move.

 

At the very least Ricketts is telling the new GM:

 

"You're free to do what you want with this guy...but I really really like him and strongly think you ought to consider keeping him. Of course it's your choice, but I'm your boss, and I think you should keep him."

 

Put yourself in the position of the new GM. Do you want to walk into this kind of situation?

 

It also begs the question....if Ricketts likes Fleita so much, why isn't he just made the GM?

 

I really doubt it's that serious to begin with, and you're working under the major assumption that the new GM will surely dislike Fleita (after all he worked with Hendry and still uses stone tools!).

 

And it doesn't even come close to be begging that question, at all.

[jersey cubs fan]

What is being ignored by some here is that fleita is horrible at his job. They did a good job developing pitchers when hendry held that role but they suck now. He is terrible, stuck with an ignorant philosophy and you are forcing him on a new gm. Candidates will definitely not look favorably at this sort of decision making by an uninformed owner.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

What is being ignored by some here is that fleita is horrible at his job. They did a good job developing pitchers when hendry held that role but they suck now. He is terrible, stuck with an ignorant philosophy and you are forcing him on a new gm. Candidates will definitely not look favorably at this sort of decision making by an uninformed owner.

 

I'm not ignoring it so much as disagreeing with it. Completely actually...Developing pitchers is a big positive, we have no idea what his philosophy is (OTOH we do know that he lacks that big exciting Harvard degree and a firm background in the numbers you're now obligated to have to work in baseball so surely he HATES numbers and intellect), and plenty of people will be "forced" on the GM who we already assume new GM will hate with a passion (from Zambrano to Soriano to everyone on the farm system who doesn't walk at the appropriate rate).

 

I also disagree that new GM is obligated to feel that way too, or that he will.

 

What's really being ignored is that very little is actually known about Fleita.

[Guest]

What is being ignored by some here is that fleita is horrible at his job. They did a good job developing pitchers when hendry held that role but they suck now. He is terrible, stuck with an ignorant philosophy and you are forcing him on a new gm. Candidates will definitely not look favorably at this sort of decision making by an uninformed owner.

 

I'm not ignoring it so much as disagreeing with it. Completely actually...Developing pitchers is a big positive, we have no idea what his philosophy is (OTOH we do know that he lacks that big exciting Harvard degree and a firm background in the numbers you're now obligated to have to work in baseball so surely he HATES numbers and intellect), and plenty of people will be "forced" on the GM who we already assume new GM will hate with a passion (from Zambrano to Soriano to everyone on the farm system who doesn't walk at the appropriate rate).

 

I also disagree that new GM is obligated to feel that way too, or that he will.

 

What's really being ignored is that very little is actually known about Fleita.

Quick...name the last above average sp the Cubs have produced from the system.

[Guest]

What's really being ignored is that very little is actually known about Fleita.

Care to address any of my points from the last page? We may not know much about Fleita for certain, but we know quite a bit about the farm system, what it has produced and how it is operated.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

What is being ignored by some here is that fleita is horrible at his job. They did a good job developing pitchers when hendry held that role but they suck now. He is terrible, stuck with an ignorant philosophy and you are forcing him on a new gm. Candidates will definitely not look favorably at this sort of decision making by an uninformed owner.

 

I'm not ignoring it so much as disagreeing with it. Completely actually...Developing pitchers is a big positive, we have no idea what his philosophy is (OTOH we do know that he lacks that big exciting Harvard degree and a firm background in the numbers you're now obligated to have to work in baseball so surely he HATES numbers and intellect), and plenty of people will be "forced" on the GM who we already assume new GM will hate with a passion (from Zambrano to Soriano to everyone on the farm system who doesn't walk at the appropriate rate).

 

I also disagree that new GM is obligated to feel that way too, or that he will.

 

What's really being ignored is that very little is actually known about Fleita.

Quick...name the last above average sp the Cubs have produced from the system.

 

Randy Wells all of 2 years ago. Is that the barometer anyway? The whole bullpen's full of system guys, the only exception off the top of my head being Grabow. He was also in charge of their Latin America program when Starlin Castro was brought in for all of $50,000, and I'm pretty sure he's also big in the organization's Asia programs.

 

There's alot of people in between Fleita and development anyway....I'm sure changes have been made in minor league coaching, and there's plenty more to come.

[Guest]

Your contention is that developing pitching is really important as if we should assume that the Cubs have been really stellar at that under Fleita. Truth is...they haven't been. Randy Wells as the only SP with a decent season or two over the past five+ years isn't particularly impressive (Fleita wasn't in place yet for Z, so he doesn't get credit there).

 

Developing a pen in house is nice, but Wood doesn't count for Fleita and I'm pretty sure Marmol and Marshall were developed (or mostly developed) before Fleita got promoted. So we're basing your argument for the Cubs being good at developing pitchers on Samardzija and Russell? Forgive me for not being overly impressed with that track record.

[TruffleShuffle]

(OTOH we do know that he lacks that big exciting Harvard degree and a firm background in the numbers you're now obligated to have to work in baseball so surely he HATES numbers and intellect)

 

wow never thought i'd see murray chass start posting on this board

[Illini Iceman]

Is it normal for a new GM to also bring in a new VP of Player Personnel? Personally I would think it would be pretty hard to take over a team in October and November and have to immediately make decisions regarding the 40 man roster, etc with a completely new front office that doesn't have a lot knowledge about the players in the system. If I were starting as the GM I would want to be able to have some key people still in place from the previous regime at least for the first year and then start making decisions about who is worth keeping and who needs to go after I have had time to evaluate how everyone does their jobs. He is already going to have to probably find a new manager and possibly scouting director if Wilkens leaves so I would think he would appreciate at least some continuity while he gets his feet wet.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

I don't really care about the inane quotes in the press.

 

What I care about is:

• the general lack of players exceeding expectations from their draft status
  
• Far too many players failing to live up to their draft expectations
  
• The apparent disdain for the use of technology within the organization in evaluating players and directing their development
  
• Some differences in philosophy in when to promote various players
  
• "Camp Colvin" simply highlights the general lack of attention to strength and conditioning training within the organization

It is certainly possible that all of the above was driven by Hendry. It's certainly possible that a new GM can fix the above issues, along with installing an approach-driven hitting development throughout the system.

 

But I don't see the need to give Fleita a four year extension based on past results. I had anticipated Fleita and Wilken sticking around for a year as the new guy picked his own people. A four year extension is ridiculous, though.

 

I'm not sure how to address this.

 

- I'm we're not any more off than most organizations. Obviously there's room for improvements, but there's always room for improvement.

- See above.

- I understand the perception, and held it for the better part of a decade. I'm less worried than I was. This is as much a product of ownership as it is of employee incompetence, and I think Ricketts is willing to change these things.

- Not sure about promotion philosophies at all, but overall I notice that they tend to take it slow with most guys. I like that.

- What were the desired effects of Camp Colvin? How soon should they show up?

 

I think all of the above are superfluous in their own way and stem from the big league club not winning, which with some smart moves can be fairly easily done given the amount of money the Cubs will have coming off the books over the next 2-3 years.

 

I don't think the extension was given on past results so much as it was given on Ricketts' opinion of Fleita moving forward. His big problem seems to be that like Kenney he's from the old regime and therefore "part of the problem." That said, the old regime had it's successes, and not everyone working there was a lunkhead. Perhaps Fleita was one of those people.

[Guest]

What is being ignored by some here is that fleita is horrible at his job. They did a good job developing pitchers when hendry held that role but they suck now. He is terrible, stuck with an ignorant philosophy and you are forcing him on a new gm. Candidates will definitely not look favorably at this sort of decision making by an uninformed owner.

 

On top of that, the belief that Fleita has revived the international program is pretty weak. He doesn't get credit for Zambrano and Marmol. Sure, he gets credit for Starlin Castro but I'm not the only one who believes he was mishandled as he was rushed up the system. Who else has the int'l program actually produced in the big leagues?

 

Fleita has an undeserved good reputation. The story on his backwards view of technology was disgusting.

[TruffleShuffle]

- I'm we're not any more off than most organizations

 

what the what?

[fromthestretch]

I realize it's in Truffle's sig, but how the hell has no one mentioned sully's pending screen name change due to this news?

[Guest]

(OTOH we do know that he lacks that big exciting Harvard degree and a firm background in the numbers you're now obligated to have to work in baseball so surely he HATES numbers and intellect)

 

wow never thought i'd see murray chass start posting on this board

 

If that's what you're going to glean from his posts in this thread, then please keep your opinions to yourself.

[TruffleShuffle]

Good move. Smart organizations try to keep young tapers, player of suit.

 

this is another one that has me scratching my head.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Your contention is that developing pitching is really important as if we should assume that the Cubs have been really stellar at that under Fleita. Truth is...they haven't been. Randy Wells as the only SP with a decent season or two over the past five+ years isn't particularly impressive (Fleita wasn't in place yet for Z, so he doesn't get credit there).

 

Developing a pen in house is nice, but Wood doesn't count for Fleita and I'm pretty sure Marmol and Marshall were developed (or mostly developed) before Fleita got promoted. So we're basing your argument for the Cubs being good at developing pitchers on Samardzija and Russell? Forgive me for not being overly impressed with that track record.

 

Wait what?

 

The kid was throwing his fastball 85-90 mph with extraordinary movement, and looked effortless doing so. Cubs scout Alberto Rondon was the first to recognize Carlos as a prime prospect. Oneri Fleita, head of the team's Latin American academies, agreed

 

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Zambrano/Zambrano_bio.html

 

Who does he get credit for? Anyone who failed or can be knocked like a Shark or Russell (who are both promising in their own right)?

 

Fleita has been with the Cubs a long time, and he's got the reputation as being the best talent evaluator in the organization. No that hasn't laid the riches upon us like the Super Team they woulda/coulda/shoulda been last decade, but that doesn't mean they had no intention of keeping him. They'd be foolish not to keep him, as they'd then be forced to look for a new GM plus a new Fleita, all based on a perception in philosophy and a little aggravation over losing. Not worth it.

 

I'm really not sure what the big deal is...Or why there's an assumption of incompetence on anyone who worked under the Tribune's later days with Hendry as GM. Yes, the organization has been in a bad ways the past couple of years, mostly through the failures of the big league teams. Big deal, stuff happens, and they're moving on. Hell, they've been moving on. Choosing to keep the guy who's long been the most praised talent evaluator in the organization isn't something I'm going to lose sleep over. The new GM will figure some way to cope, as there's much bigger issues to go after (like the big league club, the hole at 1B and in the rotation, and 40+ million off the books).

Edited September 4, 2011 by KingKongvs.Godzilla

[WrigleyField 22]

I realize it's in Truffle's sig, but how the hell has no one mentioned sully's pending screen name change due to this news?

I can't wait, haha.