Swisher was plan B to Fukudome

[TruffleShuffle]

Would have much rather had Swisher than Fuk discuss....

 

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

If, at the time, Hendry would have passed on the Fukudome sweepstakes to get Swisher, he would have gotten the usual "our GM is an idiot" treatment on NSBB.

 

i highly doubt that. swisher had great patience and put up mid .800s OPS playing in cavernous coliseum (whatever they're calling it these days, naming rights have changed like 30 times). swisher was pretty much what one hoped fukudome would be coming over from japan.

[toonsterwu]

Gotta disagree there. The board was very high on Swisher, and thought Williams stole him by only giving up Gonzalez.

 

Stole him? Fautino de los Santos was viewed as highly as Gio, if not higher. de los Santos was coming off a filthy, filthy 2007 and was looking like a future TOR arm. Ryan Sweeney was an upper level CF who was close to ready. Sure, in hindsight, only Gio has panned out, so maybe it feels like a "steal", but giving two high upside arms up, and an upper level CF? That's hardly a steal. Furthermore, de los Santos and Sweeney both were in the bigs for the A's.

 

Edit: The author also takes a shot at the Dempster deal, and Dempster has been worth his contract in the first three years. Whether or not he's worth it in his final year, don't know, but when viewing the contract overall, I'm fine with that deal.

[abuck1220]

Am I mis-remembering, or was Meph really high on Fukudome?

 

you may be thinking of jr towles.

[abuck1220]

and ps, that article is awful.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Josh Hamilton

 

How does that even compare? Don't be an idiot.

Good luck with that.

[Dallas Green]

Would have much rather had Swisher than Fuk discuss....

 

Hindsight is always 20/20.

 

If, at the time, Hendry would have passed on the Fukudome sweepstakes to get Swisher, he would have gotten the usual "our GM is an idiot" treatment on NSBB.

 

i highly doubt that. swisher had great patience and put up mid .800s OPS playing in cavernous coliseum (whatever they're calling it these days, naming rights have changed like 30 times). swisher was pretty much what one hoped fukudome would be coming over from japan.

 

I couldn't agree more, plus the money was a huge factor

[Dallas Green]

and ps, that article is awful.

 

 

Why? It just pointed out that Swisher was the move to make at the time just based on money alone, and I don't think Dempster is a #1 pitcher and he got #1 pitcher money IMHO

[abuck1220]

fukudome and dempster rank pretty far down on the list of the cubs' "mistakes" over the past few seasons.

[Guest]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

[Sammy Sofa]

Because, again, the author thinks signing Fukudome was Hendry's biggest mistake. He lets him off the hook by saying that the extra years/money in the Soriano deal were essentially forced on him by higher-ups, yet completely glosses over how in demand and highly regarded Fukudome was and that he actually took a smaller contract to play with the Cubs, so it's not like Hendry threw down a stupid deal yet again to blow everyone else out of the water. Yes, in hindsight signing Fukudome wasn't nearly the impact singing we all hoped/wanted it to be, but to deem him Hendry's biggest mistake? That's absurd.

 

And Dempster has indeed been worth his contract with the Cubs until this year, and even this year he's not all that far off.

[Dallas Green]

fukudome and dempster rank pretty far down on the list of the cubs' "mistakes" over the past few seasons.

 

Ok, agreed. However, Soriano was an org move for the most part, and Bradley was awful in terms of years, but gambling that much on Fuk?? Dempster should have gotten more along the lines of 10-11 mil per for 4 years. It's just we have Yankee type deals on this team for unlike Yankee production. Oh well..at least they are about to all expire soon, and the Cubs will probably eat Sori's deal in the offseason.

[Sammy Sofa]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

 

Yeah, Swisher was a real mixed bag at the time. People seemed in love with his offensive potential, but there was concern about the flaws in both his offensive and defensive game. Again, not saying history would have repeated itself, but Swisher was pretty bad in 2008, and putting him in RF at Wrigley for half the season could have well exacerbated that. Couple that with the perception of him being the consolation prize after missing out on the real target and his easily targeted attitude by meatballs and I could see him getting chased out of town even before his deal was up.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Sammy Sofa

[Sammy Sofa]

fukudome and dempster rank pretty far down on the list of the cubs' "mistakes" over the past few seasons.

 

Ok, agreed. However, Soriano was an org move for the most part, and Bradley was awful in terms of years, but gambling that much on Fuk?? Dempster should have gotten more along the lines of 10-11 mil per for 4 years. It's just we have Yankee type deals on this team for unlike Yankee production. Oh well..at least they are about to all expire soon, and the Cubs will probably eat Sori's deal in the offseason.

 

Why do you think Desmpter is overpaid? He's not.

 

And Fukudome was highly coveted by multiple teams who tried to pay MORE than the Cubs with glowing scouting reports from a ton of different sources.

[Tracer Bullet]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

 

Yeah, Swisher was a real mixed bag at the time. People seemed in love with his offensive potential, but there was concern about the flaws in both his offensive and defensive game. Again, not saying history would have repeated itself, but Swisher was pretty bad in 2008, and putting him in RF at Wrigley for half the season could have well exacerbated that. Couple that with the perception of him being the consolation prize after missing out on the real target and his easily targeted attitude by meatballs and I could see him getting chased out of town even before his deal was up.

 

Would have been nice to have him available for 1b, so we could have dumped lee even sooner and not had to spend another $10m on a temp 1b (and I like pena but in hindsight - what a huge waste of money).

 

All hindsight and I liked fukudome. But I like swisher and wanted him in 08. Far from JH's biggest mistake.

[Dallas Green]

fukudome and dempster rank pretty far down on the list of the cubs' "mistakes" over the past few seasons.

 

Ok, agreed. However, Soriano was an org move for the most part, and Bradley was awful in terms of years, but gambling that much on Fuk?? Dempster should have gotten more along the lines of 10-11 mil per for 4 years. It's just we have Yankee type deals on this team for unlike Yankee production. Oh well..at least they are about to all expire soon, and the Cubs will probably eat Sori's deal in the offseason.

 

Why do you think Desmpter is overpaid? He's not.

 

And Fukudome was highly coveted by multiple teams who tried to pay MORE than the Cubs with glowing scouting reports from a ton of different sources.

 

I just don't think most GMs would view Dempster as a higher than a #3

[Dallas Green]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

 

Yeah, Swisher was a real mixed bag at the time. People seemed in love with his offensive potential, but there was concern about the flaws in both his offensive and defensive game. Again, not saying history would have repeated itself, but Swisher was pretty bad in 2008, and putting him in RF at Wrigley for half the season could have well exacerbated that. Couple that with the perception of him being the consolation prize after missing out on the real target and his easily targeted attitude by meatballs and I could see him getting chased out of town even before his deal was up.

 

Would have been nice to have him available for 1b, so we could have dumped lee even sooner and not had to spend another $10m on a temp 1b (and I like pena but in hindsight - what a huge waste of money).

 

All hindsight and I liked fukudome. But I like swisher and wanted him in 08. Far from JH's biggest mistake.

 

Ok fine, so lets say its in the top 3?

 

Sori

Bradley

Fuk?

 

At least Bradley and Sori were coming off career years at the time, and Sori should have gotten 6 years, and Bradley one with a team option for 2 IMHO

[Sammy Sofa]

fukudome and dempster rank pretty far down on the list of the cubs' "mistakes" over the past few seasons.

 

Ok, agreed. However, Soriano was an org move for the most part, and Bradley was awful in terms of years, but gambling that much on Fuk?? Dempster should have gotten more along the lines of 10-11 mil per for 4 years. It's just we have Yankee type deals on this team for unlike Yankee production. Oh well..at least they are about to all expire soon, and the Cubs will probably eat Sori's deal in the offseason.

 

Why do you think Desmpter is overpaid? He's not.

 

And Fukudome was highly coveted by multiple teams who tried to pay MORE than the Cubs with glowing scouting reports from a ton of different sources.

 

I just don't think most GMs would view Dempster as a higher than a #3

 

That's fantastic. He's been well worth his contract and then some.

[Sammy Sofa]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

 

Yeah, Swisher was a real mixed bag at the time. People seemed in love with his offensive potential, but there was concern about the flaws in both his offensive and defensive game. Again, not saying history would have repeated itself, but Swisher was pretty bad in 2008, and putting him in RF at Wrigley for half the season could have well exacerbated that. Couple that with the perception of him being the consolation prize after missing out on the real target and his easily targeted attitude by meatballs and I could see him getting chased out of town even before his deal was up.

 

Would have been nice to have him available for 1b, so we could have dumped lee even sooner and not had to spend another $10m on a temp 1b (and I like pena but in hindsight - what a huge waste of money).

 

All hindsight and I liked fukudome. But I like swisher and wanted him in 08. Far from JH's biggest mistake.

 

Ok fine, so lets say its in the top 3?

 

Sori

Bradley

Fuk?

 

At least Bradley and Sori were coming off career years at the time, and Sori should have gotten 6 years, and Bradley one with a team option for 2 IMHO

 

Again, you're inexplicably downplaying the hype and scouting reports around Fukudome. You keep making it sound like the Cubs went out of their way to sign and overpay a guy nobody else wanted. That simply wasn't the case.

 

And the Juan Pierre trade was much, much worse.

 

I mean, yes, the Fukudome signing turned out to be a mistake, but it was a "different" type of mistake for Hendry. That was a mistake GOOD GM's make (look at the caliber of front offices that have been burned by highly touted Japanese players even AFTER Fukudome). He managed to sign a highly coveted FA with a contract that was actually more reasonable than what he was being offered elsewhere. Yeah, it turned out to be a bust, but it's not like a "oh, that's Hendry being Hendry again"-type of situation.

[Sammy Sofa]

Let me put it this way: if singing Fukudome was actually the biggest mistake of Hendry's tenure and indicative of the types of "mistakes" he usually made, we'd all [expletive] love Jim Hendry. And the Cubs would probably be a LOT better right now.

[Dallas Green]

UZR doesn't exactly back me up on this, but my memory was that Swisher was not considered a slam dunk to be a viable RF. He played a lot of 1st base, but also a lot of CF too for 2 different teams, it's confusing to look at it.

 

Yeah, Swisher was a real mixed bag at the time. People seemed in love with his offensive potential, but there was concern about the flaws in both his offensive and defensive game. Again, not saying history would have repeated itself, but Swisher was pretty bad in 2008, and putting him in RF at Wrigley for half the season could have well exacerbated that. Couple that with the perception of him being the consolation prize after missing out on the real target and his easily targeted attitude by meatballs and I could see him getting chased out of town even before his deal was up.

 

Would have been nice to have him available for 1b, so we could have dumped lee even sooner and not had to spend another $10m on a temp 1b (and I like pena but in hindsight - what a huge waste of money).

 

All hindsight and I liked fukudome. But I like swisher and wanted him in 08. Far from JH's biggest mistake.

 

Ok fine, so lets say its in the top 3?

 

Sori

Bradley

Fuk?

 

At least Bradley and Sori were coming off career years at the time, and Sori should have gotten 6 years, and Bradley one with a team option for 2 IMHO

 

Again, you're inexplicably downplaying the hype and scouting reports around Fukudome. You keep making it sound like the Cubs went out of their way to sign and overpay a guy nobody else wanted. That simply wasn't the case.

 

And the Juan Pierre trade was much, much worse.

 

I mean, yes, the Fukudome signing turned out to be a mistake, but it was a "different" type of mistake for Hendry. That was a mistake GOOD GM's make (look at the caliber of front offices that have been burned by highly touted Japanese players even AFTER Fukudome). He managed to sign a highly coveted FA with a contract that was actually more reasonable than what he was being offered elsewhere. Yeah, it turned out to be a bust, but it's not like a "oh, that's Hendry being Hendry again"-type of situation.

 

Hey I wanted him too, as did many others. However, JH and his scouts are supposed to weigh everything when it comes to deals, and don't tell me Swisher wasnt viewed as what we thought Fuk was going to be at a much lower cost?

[Sammy Sofa]

Hey I wanted him too, as did many others. However, JH and his scouts are supposed to weigh everything when it comes to deals, and don't tell me Swisher wasnt viewed as what we thought Fuk was going to be at a much lower cost?

 

He wasn't. Fukudome was expected to hit for a better average and (less better) OBP than Swisher and was considered a much, much better OF. The only thing Swisher arguably had on Fukudome at the time was power, and even then Fukudome was projected to hit 20-25 HR and slug .400-.450.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

and ps, that article is awful.

 

 

Why? It just pointed out that Swisher was the move to make at the time just based on money alone, and I don't think Dempster is a #1 pitcher and he got #1 pitcher money IMHO

 

Maybe #1 pitcher money 10-15-20 years ago...That's #3 money nowadays.

[Dallas Green]

and ps, that article is awful.

 

 

Why? It just pointed out that Swisher was the move to make at the time just based on money alone, and I don't think Dempster is a #1 pitcher and he got #1 pitcher money IMHO

 

Maybe #1 pitcher money 10-15-20 years ago...That's #3 money nowadays.

 

Really? I'm going to have to look at the top 20 pitchers in salary and see where Dempster ranks

[dew1679666265]

I don't think Dempster is a #1 pitcher and he got #1 pitcher money IMHO

 

#1 pitcher money today is anywhere from $18-25 million a year. That's Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Roy Halladay type money. Dempster is making $13.5 million this year and has an option for $14 million next year. That's not #1 pitcher money.

 

I just don't think most GMs would view Dempster as a higher than a #3

 

Since he became a full time starter in 2008 for the Cubs, Dempster has posted a 2.96, 3.65, and 3.85 ERA and a 1.21, 1.31, 1.32 WHIP. He had a horrid start to the year, but since April has been dominant - as good as he's ever been.

 

He's had better ERA/WHIP numbers overall than Greinke and two of his four years as a starter have been as good (2008) or half a point of ERA worse (2009) than Sabathia. If most GMs view him as, at best, a #3 starters, then a lot of GMs are ignoring how well he's pitched.

[Sammy Sofa]

and ps, that article is awful.

 

 

Why? It just pointed out that Swisher was the move to make at the time just based on money alone, and I don't think Dempster is a #1 pitcher and he got #1 pitcher money IMHO

 

Maybe #1 pitcher money 10-15-20 years ago...That's #3 money nowadays.

 

Really? I'm going to have to look at the top 20 pitchers in salary and see where Dempster ranks

 

Starting pitchers

The highest-paid starting pitchers, by average annual value:

1. Cliff Lee, $24,000,000 (2011-15)

2. CC Sabathia, $23,000,000 (2009-15)

3. Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)

4. Roy Halladay, $20,000,000 (2011-13)

5. Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12)

6. Barry Zito, $18,000,000 (2007-13)

7. Jake Peavy, $17,333,333 (2010-12)

8. A.J. Burnett, $16,500,000 (2009-13)

. . . John Lackey, $16,500,000 (2010-14)

10. Justin Verlander, $16,000,000 (2010-14)

11. Jason Schmidt, $15,666,667 (2007-09)

12. Felix Hernandez, $15,600,000 (2010-14)

13. Derek Lowe, $15,000,000 (2009-12)

14. Roy Oswalt, $14,600,000 (2007-11)

15. Mark Buehrle, $14,000,000 (2008-11)

16. Roy Halladay, $13,333,333 (2008-10)

17. Pedro Martinez, $13,250,000 (2005-08)

18. Ryan Dempster, $13,000,000 (2009-12)

19. Chris Carpenter, $12,700,000 (2008-11)

20. Bronson Arroyo, $12,500,000 (2009-10)

. . . Pedro Martinez, $12,500,000 (1998-2003)

22. Kevin Millwood, $12,000,000 (2006-10)

 

Here's his projected value courtesy of Fangraphs:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=517&position=P#value

 

According them he's been worth almost $31 million over the first two years (2009 and 2010) of his 3-year deal. He was paid $22.5 million for those years. He's owed $13.5 million this year and Fangraphs has him valued at about $10.3 million right now. Ryan Dempster has been well worth his contract.