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Posted
I think other teams probably see what you see in him, so I think the bidding may very well go over 5/100 mark. While it would be great to get a #1 or #2 starter, a #3 or #4 at a lesser cost might not be a bad move behind Garza, Dempster, and possibly Wells.

 

The thinking for me behind going after a top of the rotation guy is that our system is full of 3-5 type starters who should be ready within the next couple or three years. Much like the reasoning for going after a premiere bat, a top of the rotation pitcher is something the system simply won't produce for the next few years (maybe Ben Wells is our next best shot).

 

It almost seems like a waste of money/prospects to pursue a non-TOR guy since we've got so many of them nearly ready in the minors. If we're going to spend big money, it should be on something we won't have anytime soon - a legit TOR guy. And the benefit to Wilson specifically is that going by the mileage on his arm, it's like signing a guy in his mid-20s. He's only been starting for 2 seasons now.

 

Exactly. He's an elite talent and he'll only cost us money.

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Posted (edited)
Marlins Targeting Aramis Ramirez

By Zach Links [september 18 at 8:32pm CST]

The Marlins are moving into a brand new retractable ballpark in 2012 and they'll look to make a big splash on the open market this winter, writes Joe Frisaro of MLB.com. Cubs third baseman Aramis Ramirez is one of the top free agents who is clearly on the Marlins' radar.

 

Internally, the club views him as a good fit for a lineup as they look to add an established veteran to a youthful squad. The addition of Ramirez would also give rookie Matt Dominguez more time to develop.

 

The Fish may also wind up making inquiries on top free agents Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, and Jose Reyes. Sources say that the Marlins will also explore signing C.J. Wilson and the left-hander is already being talked about.

 

 

Surrreeeee you are Jeffy.

Edited by SouthSideRyan
Posted
The real question is what we can afford. Ramirez plus Pujols/Fielder probably puts us out of the Wilson bidding. Re-signing Pena and Ramirez should leave lots of money for Wilson.

 

The point I've been making this entire thread is that we should let Aramis walk to (hopefully) free up the money to sign Wilson and one of Pujols/Fielder. Wilson is a better short and long term investment than Aramis at this point.

 

And that isn't a very smart point to try and make.

 

Your solutions to fill the position are garbage.

Posted
Marlins Targeting Aramis Ramirez

By Zach Links [september 18 at 8:32pm CST]

The Marlins are moving into a brand new retractable ballpark in 2012 and they'll look to make a big splash on the open market this winter, writes Joe Frisaro of MLB.com. Cubs third baseman Aramis Ramirez is one of the top free agents who is clearly on the Marlins' radar.

 

Internally, the club views him as a good fit for a lineup as they look to add an established veteran to a youthful squad. The addition of Ramirez would also give rookie Matt Dominguez more time to develop.

 

The Fish may also wind up making inquiries on top free agents Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, and Jose Reyes. Sources say that the Marlins will also explore signing C.J. Wilson and the left-hander is already being talked about.

 

 

Surrreeeee you are Jeffy.

Havnt seen this posted.

 

You never know, this could be their scheduled year to build a champion to then burn it down before the rings are even engraved.

Posted
Marlins Targeting Aramis Ramirez

By Zach Links [september 18 at 8:32pm CST]

The Marlins are moving into a brand new retractable ballpark in 2012 and they'll look to make a big splash on the open market this winter, writes Joe Frisaro of MLB.com. Cubs third baseman Aramis Ramirez is one of the top free agents who is clearly on the Marlins' radar.

 

Internally, the club views him as a good fit for a lineup as they look to add an established veteran to a youthful squad. The addition of Ramirez would also give rookie Matt Dominguez more time to develop.

 

The Fish may also wind up making inquiries on top free agents Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, and Jose Reyes. Sources say that the Marlins will also explore signing C.J. Wilson and the left-hander is already being talked about.

 

 

Surrreeeee you are Jeffy.

Havnt seen this posted.

 

You never know, this could be their scheduled year to build a champion to then burn it down before the rings are even engraved.

 

Huizenga was the only guy who did that.

Posted
The real question is what we can afford. Ramirez plus Pujols/Fielder probably puts us out of the Wilson bidding. Re-signing Pena and Ramirez should leave lots of money for Wilson.

 

The point I've been making this entire thread is that we should let Aramis walk to (hopefully) free up the money to sign Wilson and one of Pujols/Fielder. Wilson is a better short and long term investment than Aramis at this point.

 

And that isn't a very smart point to try and make.

 

Your solutions to fill the position are garbage.

 

My solutions are salary-based - you shoot a little higher if Ricketts bumps payroll up at all. If it stays as is, then you make do with what you have. Baker is extremely productive against lefties and as long as Flaherty/LeMaheieu is decent, we'll have above average offense at third.

 

Why do you think an aging, injury prone 33 year old slugger is a better 3 year investment than a 31 year old elite pitcher who only has 2 years of ML starting experience under his belt for 4-5 years?

Posted
Soto played 3 games at 3B in the minors, the last of them occurring 8 years ago. You wind up with a horrendous defender at 3B, and you're not even guaranteeing better production when you have Castillo/Clevenger behind the plate for 130 games.

 

Out of cuiosity, do you believe it is too late for him to learn a new position or that he lacks the athleticism to be any better than "horrendous"? I doubt he'd be as bad as Jake Fox out there.

 

What type of numbers do you think Castillo and Clevenger could put up over those 130 games- though I think it would be more like 120? Soto this year hasn't been particularly productive with and OPS around .600. Can we expect him to catch 140 games next year and still return to his .900-1.000 ops he had in his good seasons?

 

Clearly, the best option is to bring back Ramirez for 2 more years.

Posted
The real question is what we can afford. Ramirez plus Pujols/Fielder probably puts us out of the Wilson bidding. Re-signing Pena and Ramirez should leave lots of money for Wilson.

 

The point I've been making this entire thread is that we should let Aramis walk to (hopefully) free up the money to sign Wilson and one of Pujols/Fielder. Wilson is a better short and long term investment than Aramis at this point.

 

And that isn't a very smart point to try and make.

 

Your solutions to fill the position are garbage.

 

My solutions are salary-based - you shoot a little higher if Ricketts bumps payroll up at all. If it stays as is, then you make do with what you have. Baker is extremely productive against lefties and as long as Flaherty/LeMaheieu is decent, we'll have above average offense at third.

 

Why do you think an aging, injury prone 33 year old slugger is a better 3 year investment than a 31 year old elite pitcher who only has 2 years of ML starting experience under his belt for 4-5 years?

 

Your 3B production would blow. You are talking about guys who might have a chance to be backup middle infielders.

Posted
Out of cuiosity, do you believe it is too late for him to learn a new position or that he lacks the athleticism to be any better than "horrendous"? I doubt he'd be as bad as Jake Fox out there.

 

What type of numbers do you think Castillo and Clevenger could put up over those 130 games- though I think it would be more like 120? Soto this year hasn't been particularly productive with and OPS around .600.

 

Define "around".

 

Soto is too old and too inexperienced fielding ground balls to stand a chance of being anything other than horrible at 3B.

Posted
The real question is what we can afford. Ramirez plus Pujols/Fielder probably puts us out of the Wilson bidding. Re-signing Pena and Ramirez should leave lots of money for Wilson.

 

The point I've been making this entire thread is that we should let Aramis walk to (hopefully) free up the money to sign Wilson and one of Pujols/Fielder. Wilson is a better short and long term investment than Aramis at this point.

 

And that isn't a very smart point to try and make.

 

Your solutions to fill the position are garbage.

 

My solutions are salary-based - you shoot a little higher if Ricketts bumps payroll up at all. If it stays as is, then you make do with what you have. Baker is extremely productive against lefties and as long as Flaherty/LeMaheieu is decent, we'll have above average offense at third.

 

Why do you think an aging, injury prone 33 year old slugger is a better 3 year investment than a 31 year old elite pitcher who only has 2 years of ML starting experience under his belt for 4-5 years?

 

Your 3B production would blow. You are talking about guys who might have a chance to be backup middle infielders.

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

Posted

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team.

 

If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

Posted

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team.

 

If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

If the Cubs let Aramis walk they will be losing their best offensive player and normally a very good defensive 3b (he's been below average this year). This is BEFORE they go after Pujols/Fielder or anyone.

 

The downside risk is much greater if they let him walk than if they sign him to a backloaded three year deal. The Cubs might be able to compete within the division with him and Fielder, but they won't compete without him unless Ricketts decides to break the bank.

 

I don't really think Pujols is going anywhere. It would hurt his personal brand substantially. So that leaves Fielder who has already said he could DH if the price is right. That opens up Boston, NYY, and LAA in addition to whatever NL teams he might sign with.

 

I could see a scenario where the Cubs let Aramis walk and don't get anyone while they pay for Z to play somewhere else. It's a nightmarish 50 something win season.

Posted

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team.

 

If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

 

The Cubs will not be rebuilding, so Flaherty/LeMahieu/Vitters isn't going to work at 3B. Losing Ramirez/Pena and adding Fielder/Baker (or Baker platoon) does nothing for the offense especially with Soriano and Byrd a year older. Also, everyone seems to think that it's a sure thing we will get Wilson this offseason and I'm not sure that will be the case. All those other teams with money to spend see the same positive attributes in Wilson that we see and some of them may not be talking $20-$25 million per year for a 1B and more than $12 million to dump a disgruntled pitcher (or take back a similar bad contract).

Posted

 

The Cubs will not be rebuilding, so Flaherty/LeMahieu/Vitters isn't going to work at 3B. Losing Ramirez/Pena and adding Fielder/Baker (or Baker platoon) does nothing for the offense especially with Soriano and Byrd a year older. Also, everyone seems to think that it's a sure thing we will get Wilson this offseason and I'm not sure that will be the case. All those other teams with money to spend see the same positive attributes in Wilson that we see and some of them may not be talking $20-$25 million per year for a 1B and more than $12 million to dump a disgruntled pitcher (or take back a similar bad contract).

 

Well if it helps....there aren't many teams that can/will spend money like the Cubs potentially can, and the big boys (Yankees and Sox) will be distracted by their own guy (Sabathia) or just won't have room for a Wilson (Beckett/Lester/Buchholz/Lackey/Someone).

 

That said I do think there are options that may or may not be there if Wilson fails...obviously they won't be as good and even availability is in question but:

 

Ross Detweiler - Nationals are building a very good, young rotation and there's a chance they probably want this former top 10 pick in it. That said, if not he's an excellent buy young candidate.

 

Jonathan Sanchez - Forgotten Giants lefty can pile up K's and has WS experience, but control and other flaws will make him available.

 

Jon Broxton - Cubs aren't hurting for bullpen arms, but considering this is a still young former high end reliever I have to throw the name out there.

 

Rick Porcello - Hopefully/maybe the Tigers lose patience.

 

Andrew Miller - Might get the Red Sox's 5th spot next year. Upside and arm strength remain pluses and I like the new mechanics. He's less of a stiff than his Detroit or even college days.

 

Tyler Matzek - Like Porcello, though still merely a prospect. With the acquisition of Pomeranz, a similar talent but college trained, I wonder if the Rockies might lose patience on their investment. He's significantly talented enough that I'm willing to throw him on this list despite the fact that he probably won't see the bigs in 2012. Franchise-mate Ian Stewart might make a decent buy low 3B option, though I'm in the keep Ramirez camp.

 

Chad Billingsley - Not TOR enough or upside-y enough for my taste, but you'd know what you're getting with him for the most part.

 

Tyler Chatwood - Diminutive RH pitches for a loaded LA staff, and there's the slightest chance he might be an odd man out type. I'm a big fan of the arm.

 

Gavin Floyd - Personally, I think all non-Danks White Sox can go screw a goat, but he's a good pitcher. Like Billingsley, you know you're getting a solid arm who is what he is.

 

Kyle Drabek - Another young upside arm who has an outside shot of his franchise losing patience.

 

Chris Tillman - See Drabek/Matzek/Porcello.

 

There's probably more, but these are some that come to mind quickly.

Posted

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team.

 

If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

 

The Cubs will not be rebuilding, so Flaherty/LeMahieu/Vitters isn't going to work at 3B. Losing Ramirez/Pena and adding Fielder/Baker (or Baker platoon) does nothing for the offense especially with Soriano and Byrd a year older. Also, everyone seems to think that it's a sure thing we will get Wilson this offseason and I'm not sure that will be the case. All those other teams with money to spend see the same positive attributes in Wilson that we see and some of them may not be talking $20-$25 million per year for a 1B and more than $12 million to dump a disgruntled pitcher (or take back a similar bad contract).

 

Please find one post in which someone says anything about Wilson being a sure thing?

Posted
Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year.

 

This is such a ridiculous comment to make. The goal is not to break even on cost/value for every player. The goal is to be good. Ramirez is good, so he is paid a lot of money. If all you do is let every expensive guy walk and replace him with cheap guys who might break even on their production, you are going to suck.

 

The Cubs already suck. They can't afford to let quality leave if they want to get any better. Their system isn't close to being capable of replacing somebody like Ramirez.

Posted
Some of these 3B platoon ideas are just dumb. But Vitters getting time at 3B in 2012 is beyond idiotic. It's irresponsible nonsense.

 

But if Aramis leaves, what are the options? I agree, if Vitters gets any time in 2012 it will be in the 2nd half after dominating AA/AAA.

 

Other options are:

 

Platoons involving Jeff Baker/DJ LeMahieu and Ryan Flaherty/Blake DeWitt

 

The FA market, in which Wilson Betemit, Casey Blake (38) and Mark DeRosa (37) are the 3B highlights beyond Ramirez.

 

Trade: Mark Reynolds could be an option. Not many others I can think of. Theres Brandon Inge and Kevin Kouzmanoff who have spent the past several years proving that they arent very good at baseball.

Posted
Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year.

 

This is such a ridiculous comment to make. The goal is not to break even on cost/value for every player. The goal is to be good. Ramirez is good, so he is paid a lot of money. If all you do is let every expensive guy walk and replace him with cheap guys who might break even on their production, you are going to suck.

 

The Cubs already suck. They can't afford to let quality leave if they want to get any better. Their system isn't close to being capable of replacing somebody like Ramirez.

 

The Cubs have needs beyond 3B and finite resources. If they are better next year with Ramirez's money spent elsewhere, they need to do it. Especially since Ramirez isn't a long term piece at this point.

Posted
Some of these 3B platoon ideas are just dumb. But Vitters getting time at 3B in 2012 is beyond idiotic. It's irresponsible nonsense.

 

But if Aramis leaves, what are the options? I agree, if Vitters gets any time in 2012 it will be in the 2nd half after dominating AA/AAA.

 

Other options are:

 

Platoons involving Jeff Baker/DJ LeMahieu and Ryan Flaherty/Blake DeWitt

 

The FA market, in which Wilson Betemit, Casey Blake (38) and Mark DeRosa (37) are the 3B highlights beyond Ramirez.

 

Trade: Mark Reynolds could be an option. Not many others I can think of. Theres Brandon Inge and Kevin Kouzmanoff who have spent the past several years proving that they arent very good at baseball.

 

Others:

 

David Wright

Chase Headley

Maybe try to catch lightning in a bottle with Ian Stewart

Will Middlebrooks (Red Sox top prospect)

Michael Young?

Chone Figgins

 

There's probably/maybe more.

Posted
Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year.

 

This is such a ridiculous comment to make. The goal is not to break even on cost/value for every player. The goal is to be good. Ramirez is good, so he is paid a lot of money. If all you do is let every expensive guy walk and replace him with cheap guys who might break even on their production, you are going to suck.

 

The Cubs already suck. They can't afford to let quality leave if they want to get any better. Their system isn't close to being capable of replacing somebody like Ramirez.

 

The Cubs have needs beyond 3B and finite resources. If they are better next year with Ramirez's money spent elsewhere, they need to do it. Especially since Ramirez isn't a long term piece at this point.

 

The fact is, it will be a rebuilding process. Not a fire sale, but a rebuild that can get us back to the top in 2-3 years. Fielder, Wilson, Castro, Soto, Cashner Garza, and Jackson would be a great foundation. Hopefully, some of our other prospects can realy pan out for us as well, and between 2012-2014, we'll be freeing up some big money between Fukudome, Bradley/Silva, Pena, and Grabow after this year, maybe Ramirez after this year, Zambrano, Byrd, and probably Dempster after 2012, although Z would still have a 8 mil buyout, and Finally Soriano after 2014.

Posted
Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year.

 

This is such a ridiculous comment to make. The goal is not to break even on cost/value for every player. The goal is to be good. Ramirez is good, so he is paid a lot of money. If all you do is let every expensive guy walk and replace him with cheap guys who might break even on their production, you are going to suck.

 

The Cubs already suck. They can't afford to let quality leave if they want to get any better. Their system isn't close to being capable of replacing somebody like Ramirez.

 

The Cubs have needs beyond 3B and finite resources. If they are better next year with Ramirez's money spent elsewhere, they need to do it. Especially since Ramirez isn't a long term piece at this point.

 

They won't be better. Every theory is based on longshot hopes of unrealistic production from garbage internal candidates. It's a pointless exercise.

Posted
The Cubs have needs beyond 3B and finite resources. If they are better next year with Ramirez's money spent elsewhere, they need to do it. Especially since Ramirez isn't a long term piece at this point.

 

They won't be better. Every theory is based on longshot hopes of unrealistic production from garbage internal candidates. It's a pointless exercise.

 

It's impossible for the Cubs to better use Ramirez's money than on his salary? Don't be ridiculous. The Cubs were bad in several areas. If they use Ramirez's money towards a 4-5 win pitcher like Wilson, then you don't need any production out of 3B(which doesn't HAVE to be a platoon of current guys) to break even, and you've made yourself better for future years as well.

Posted

 

Flaherty has a good chance to be better than a backup middle infielder but handing him the job right now would be incredibly risky IMO.

 

Keeping Ramirez isn't a great option either. He's barely been worth his contract this year even with his hitting and being more healthy than he's been just about every year. He has considerable downside risk. You're basically hoping he has a year like this year and is just worth his contract, but he very well could decline or get hurt. The Cubs should consider the club option, but signing him to anything beyond that is asking for trouble unless they sign him to a ridiculously team friendly deal.

 

If ever there were a time to experiment with guys like Flaherty, LeMahieu, or even Vitters, 2012 would be the time. Even if we were to sign Fielder and Wilson, and leave the rest of the team as is, we'd be able to compete, in the .500 with a fighting chance in a weak division sense of the word, that's about the best we could expect from next years team.

 

If Ramirez were to move on, this would be the time to try out these guys, rather than a bargain basement FA like Betmit or Blake, or even banking on Jeff Baker to be something other than Jeff Baker.

 

The Cubs will not be rebuilding, so Flaherty/LeMahieu/Vitters isn't going to work at 3B. Losing Ramirez/Pena and adding Fielder/Baker (or Baker platoon) does nothing for the offense especially with Soriano and Byrd a year older. Also, everyone seems to think that it's a sure thing we will get Wilson this offseason and I'm not sure that will be the case. All those other teams with money to spend see the same positive attributes in Wilson that we see and some of them may not be talking $20-$25 million per year for a 1B and more than $12 million to dump a disgruntled pitcher (or take back a similar bad contract).

 

Please find one post in which someone says anything about Wilson being a sure thing?

 

There are quite a few posts that state "sign Fielder/Pujols and Wilson", "let Ramirez walk and use the money for Wilson and Fielder/Pujols", etc. as if we get to choose which FAs to sign. My point is that we have a lot of money to spend, but also a lot of holes to fill (1B, 3B, Zambrano/other bad contract, etc.). Some other team with much less money may decide that they're going to spend it all in one place (LH starting pitcher). Also, some players may leave a little money on the table to play for a winning organization or a better personal situation (part of the country, better pitcher's/hitter's park, etc.).

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