2011 Chicago Bulls Playoff Thread (5/26 7:30pm CST - TNT)

[SpongeWorthy]

I also enjoy this mythical universe we inhabit where all the all time former greats are just lobbing grenades constantly at Lebron for going to Miami to team up with Wade and Bosh.

 

As far as I can tell, it's them saying they wouldn't have done it themselves when they invariably get asked their thoughts on it by the media at various charities and wherever it is that NBA legends go. The horror. Won't someone please think of poor Lebron?

[Guest]

I love Scotty Pippen and what he did with the Bulls, but I can't list him next to Jordan in the same manner one lists Oscar Robertson with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Pippen was just the best of a strong supporting cast that helped Jordan win all those championships.

 

And if you were to put another premium talent player on a team with Michael Jordan during those years, I think the chemistry gets really messed up. The strong supporting cast meshed extremely well with Jordan.

[Sammy Sofa]

I love Scotty Pippen and what he did with the Bulls, but I can't list him next to Jordan in the same manner one lists Oscar Robertson with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Pippen was just the best of a strong supporting cast that helped Jordan win all those championships.

 

Come on now.

[Guest]

I love Scotty Pippen and what he did with the Bulls, but I can't list him next to Jordan in the same manner one lists Oscar Robertson with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Pippen was just the best of a strong supporting cast that helped Jordan win all those championships.

 

Come on now.

 

I'm serious. You could take any other non all star starting small forward from the NBA at that time and and put him on the Bulls, and I think Jordan and company still win several of those championships. Part of Pippen's success is playing with Jordan. Jordan made people better just by being on the floor with him.

 

There is no way you can tell me that Pippen is the only reason Jordan got all of those championships. Not a chance, and again, loved Scotty Pippen.

[TruffleShuffle]

I never said James had to be the only good player on his team. I'm saying James going to Miami would have been the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls to join Ewing or Barkley in order to win a title. Would the Knicks have been Jordan's team or Ewing's?

 

of course it would have been jordan's team. he was the better player and would have been the guy to take most of the shots at the end of close games.

[ConstableRabbit]

I love Scotty Pippen and what he did with the Bulls, but I can't list him next to Jordan in the same manner one lists Oscar Robertson with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Pippen was just the best of a strong supporting cast that helped Jordan win all those championships.

 

Come on now.

 

I'm serious. You could take any other small forward from the NBA at that time and and put him on the Bulls, and I think Jordan and company still win several of those championships. Part of Pippen's success is playing with Jordan. Jordan made people better just by being on the floor with him.

 

There is no way you can tell me that Pippen is the only reason Jordan got all of those championships. Not a chance, and again, loved Scotty Pippen.

He's not the only reason, but he's a big reason.

 

Which is why Pippen took that team so far in MJ's absence and finished 3rd in MVP voting.

[Sammy Sofa]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

[Guest]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

 

Not really claiming the need to have won all 6, afterall, Oscar and Jabbar only won one together.

 

I just don't think you can list Pippen with people like Oscar Robertson when making the claim that any team that ever wins a championship has at least 2 superstar talents.

[Sammy Sofa]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

 

Not really claiming the need to have won all 6, afterall, Oscar and Jabbar only won one together.

 

I just don't think you can list Pippen with people like Oscar Robertson when making the claim that any team that ever wins a championship has at least 2 superstar talents.

 

Why not? It's not saying that Pippen is equal to or better than Robertson as a player, but how is Pippen not a superstar talent?

[WrigleyField 22]

I never said James had to be the only good player on his team. I'm saying James going to Miami would have been the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls to join Ewing or Barkley in order to win a title. Would the Knicks have been Jordan's team or Ewing's?

 

of course it would have been jordan's team. he was the better player and would have been the guy to take most of the shots at the end of close games.

I'm not sure if Derwood is trying to distinguish between actuallity and perception, but there is a line to be drawn.

 

In actuality any team would be Jordans, but media and fan perception will always question it.

 

Also Jordan and Ewing were a lot further in talent than Lebron and Wade. I haven't paid enough attention to the Heat, but Lebron and Wade are close enough in talent that if Wade were to have a clear leadership role on the team, you could make the arguement about who's team it was. Not sure what the lockerroom dynamic is on that team though.

[Guest]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

 

Not really claiming the need to have won all 6, afterall, Oscar and Jabbar only won one together.

 

I just don't think you can list Pippen with people like Oscar Robertson when making the claim that any team that ever wins a championship has at least 2 superstar talents.

 

Why not? It's not saying that Pippen is equal to or better than Robertson as a player, but how is Pippen not a superstar talent?

 

He is a superstar talent, I just don't put him in a class with names like Oscar Robertson and Shaq, etc... Basically, if Scotty Pippen is drafted to Cleveland instead of the Bulls, does he have the same successful career without Jordan? I personally don't think so. I attribute his HOF status and a lot of his success in the NBA to Michael Jordan making him an all around better player, by learning from him and by being the #2 guy when Jordan is being double teamed.

[TruffleShuffle]

i guess the difference is that oscar robertson was basically just as good as kareem, while pippen was clearly inferior to jordan... but that being said, pippen was a fantastic player and one of the 25 or 50 best players of all time, so he obviously counts as a superstar and an elite teammate to jordan.

[WrigleyField 22]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

I was too young to watch the first 3 peat. And perhaps I'm underrating defensive impact, but I think you could argue it being the other way considering the latter Bulls had Toni Kukoc as their #3 option on offense and the #2 option for a huge portion of the final championship season. They wouldn't have been as dominant, for sure, but thats still a championship worthy team.

[Sammy Sofa]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

 

Not really claiming the need to have won all 6, afterall, Oscar and Jabbar only won one together.

 

I just don't think you can list Pippen with people like Oscar Robertson when making the claim that any team that ever wins a championship has at least 2 superstar talents.

 

Why not? It's not saying that Pippen is equal to or better than Robertson as a player, but how is Pippen not a superstar talent?

 

He is a superstar talent, I just don't put him in a class with names like Oscar Robertson and Shaq, etc... Basically, if Scotty Pippen is drafted to Cleveland instead of the Bulls, does he have the same successful career without Jordan? I personally don't think so. I attribute his HOF status and a lot of his success in the NBA to Michael Jordan making him an all around better player, by learning from him and by being the #2 guy when Jordan is being double teamed.

 

There's learning and being made better by Jordan (which is true to a degree) and then there's almost universally being considered one of the 25 best NBA players of all time. Obviously, his career without Jordan would have been very different, but it's also obvious he had a mountain of talent and certainly would have still been an elite player.

[TruffleShuffle]

note - robertson was clearly on the downside of his career and averaged "only" 19/6/8 for the bucks the year they won the championship... it's not like kareem had him as a teammate when he was posting a triple double with 30 points every game.

[Exile on Waveland]

With the exception of maybe Bill Walton, I defy anyone to name an NBA star who ever won a title where for all intents and purposes, they were the only good player on the team.

 

SSR answered this question in the post above yours (and yet people continue to mention other teams/players, while ignoring the obvious). Hakeem Olajuwon, 1994 Rockets. Their second best player was Otis Thorpe with Kenny Smith or Vernon Maxwell being the third best player. As for the Walton/Portland, Maurice Lucas was better than anyone, other than Olajuwon, on the 1994 Rockets (though Thorpe-Lucas are very comparable).

[Guest]

ANY other small forward? No.

 

While yes, I could see the Bulls winning some or even all of the first 3-peat without Pippen, but there's no [expletive] way they get the second 3-peat with just any other small forward instead of Pippen.

 

Not really claiming the need to have won all 6, afterall, Oscar and Jabbar only won one together.

 

I just don't think you can list Pippen with people like Oscar Robertson when making the claim that any team that ever wins a championship has at least 2 superstar talents.

 

Why not? It's not saying that Pippen is equal to or better than Robertson as a player, but how is Pippen not a superstar talent?

 

He is a superstar talent, I just don't put him in a class with names like Oscar Robertson and Shaq, etc... Basically, if Scotty Pippen is drafted to Cleveland instead of the Bulls, does he have the same successful career without Jordan? I personally don't think so. I attribute his HOF status and a lot of his success in the NBA to Michael Jordan making him an all around better player, by learning from him and by being the #2 guy when Jordan is being double teamed.

 

There's learning and being made better by Jordan (which is true to a degree) and then there's almost universally being considered one of the 25 best NBA players of all time. Obviously, his career without Jordan would have been very different, but it's also obvious he had a mountain of talent and certainly would have still been an elite player.

 

There's no way to truly measure that, since they were teammates and Jordan actually took Pippen under his wing and they probably actually made each other better, for all intents and purposes. I guess the point I'm trying to make is not to knock Pippen, but to point out that I don't think Michael needed an all star small forward to win a championship. He may not have won 6 without someone like Pippen. I just think you could take just about any non all star starting small forward from that era and insert him on the team and Jordan would have had an opportunity to win a championship with that line up.

 

I'm glad he had the guys he did to win all of those championships, but my theory can't be proven one way or another, but I'd like to keep believing Jordan was just that good.

[Exile on Waveland]

This is completely moronic. Lebron is the best player in the NBA. It's not even close. At all. His championship(s)/ring(s) is coming; it's inevitable. I suspect the first will be this year, though I sure hope not.

Dwight Howard is close, depending on how you view defense, what metric you pick

 

I don't think Howard is remotely close to James. I think he's second, but if there was an NBA-wide draft, I'm certain James would be on the top of all 30 draft boards. Metrics are nice and all, and I'm no Luddite, but this isn't baseball.

[wolf stansson]

This is completely moronic. Lebron is the best player in the NBA. It's not even close. At all. His championship(s)/ring(s) is coming; it's inevitable. I suspect the first will be this year, though I sure hope not.

Dwight Howard is close, depending on how you view defense, what metric you pick

 

I don't think Howard is remotely close to James. I think he's second, but if there was an NBA-wide draft, I'm certain James would be on the top of all 30 draft boards. Metrics are nice and all, and I'm no Luddite, but this isn't baseball.

Not remotely close? It's very, very close.

[WrigleyField 22]

So if Jordan doesn't have Pippen and wins 3 titles and never is on a 70+ win team, is he still the undisputable GOAT?

[WrigleyField 22]

This is completely moronic. Lebron is the best player in the NBA. It's not even close. At all. His championship(s)/ring(s) is coming; it's inevitable. I suspect the first will be this year, though I sure hope not.

Dwight Howard is close, depending on how you view defense, what metric you pick

 

I don't think Howard is remotely close to James. I think he's second, but if there was an NBA-wide draft, I'm certain James would be on the top of all 30 draft boards. Metrics are nice and all, and I'm no Luddite, but this isn't baseball.

Not remotely close? It's very, very close.

Its not that close. Plus the NBA is a very perimeter oriented league with the rules, so Howard, rightly or wrongly loses ground there.

[javy knows my name]

I love Scotty Pippen

 

Well I'm sold.

[Tyrant]

I love Scotty Pippen

 

Well I'm sold.

 

If he loves him so much he could at least learn to spell his name.

[Banedon]

With the exception of maybe Bill Walton, I defy anyone to name an NBA star who ever won a title where for all intents and purposes, they were the only good player on the team.

 

SSR answered this question in the post above yours (and yet people continue to mention other teams/players, while ignoring the obvious). Hakeem Olajuwon, 1994 Rockets. Their second best player was Otis Thorpe with Kenny Smith or Vernon Maxwell being the third best player. As for the Walton/Portland, Maurice Lucas was better than anyone, other than Olajuwon, on the 1994 Rockets (though Thorpe-Lucas are very comparable).

 

Huh...without looking it up, I would've sworn that Drexler was on that team. But sure enough, he wasn't traded until midway through the next season.

[Exile on Waveland]

This is completely moronic. Lebron is the best player in the NBA. It's not even close. At all. His championship(s)/ring(s) is coming; it's inevitable. I suspect the first will be this year, though I sure hope not.

Dwight Howard is close, depending on how you view defense, what metric you pick

 

I don't think Howard is remotely close to James. I think he's second, but if there was an NBA-wide draft, I'm certain James would be on the top of all 30 draft boards. Metrics are nice and all, and I'm no Luddite, but this isn't baseball.

Not remotely close? It's very, very close.

 

Based on what? Howard is a physical speciman, but James is a once-in-a-generation, transcendent talent. For his career, James is averaging 27.7 points per game, 7.0 rebounds, 7.1 assists, 1.7 steals, and 0.8 blocks; Howard 18.2 points, 12.9 rebounds, 1.5 assists, 2.2 blocks, and 1.1 steals. Points aren't everything, but his was the first year that Howard, in his career, averaged more points than James did his rookie year as a 19-year-old fresh out of high school. For his career James is at 26.91 PER (second all-time behind Michael Jordan), while Howard is at 22.31 (26th all time, behind Amare Stoudemire, and just ahead of Pau Gasol). Since his rookie year, James worst PER is 24.5; Howard has topped that mark only twice. Howard had a career best 14.4 win shares this year, a mark James has eclipsed four straight years and five of the eight of his career (and one year was at 14.3). Not. Remotely. Close.