Manny claimed by the White Sox

[SouthSideRyan]

So claiming Rios was a good move because it turned out well for the White Sox, in spite of the fact that the Sox were picking up a big contract for a guy who sucked. Trading for Peavy was also a good move, because in spite of the fact that it turned out to be a total [expletive] disaster, you thought it was a good move at the time.

 

Picking up Rios was a good move because they planned to play him in center. Where he was you know he could be a mediocre hitter but as long as he fielded the position well a good centerfielder with power potential isn't cheap anymore.

 

Picking up Juan Pierre and Mark Teahen those were bad moves.

 

The defensive metrics had Rios as a below average defensive RF last year, and even with plus defense in CF, he wasn't hitting at an acceptable rate for his (long-term) contract. (Not to mention his horrendous showing at the plate the year before.) Rios is playing at or below the level of Marlon Byrd this year for twice the salary, and good news, the White Sox get to pay for this for 4 more seasons.

[BCVM22]

Multiple sources say this is happening for sure, the only question being whether it's a straight contract dump or a trade involving White Sox third base prospect Jon Gilmore.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-166560

[Little Slide Rooter]

Ozzie and Manny together should be interesting, if nothing else, for The White Sox little reality show on MLB TV.

[17 Seconds]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

[SouthSideRyan]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

For only 12M/Year

[Sammy Sofa]

Anyone who thinks that picking up Rios was a good move must think that the Cubs' signing of Soriano was a stroke of brilliance.

[UMFan83]

Ozzie and Manny together should be interesting, if nothing else, for The White Sox little reality show on MLB TV.

 

That show is over, but yeah.

[Clem Fandango]

The Dodgers will allow Manny Ramirez and the remaining $4.3 million of his salary to be claimed off waivers Monday by the Chicago White Sox, according to MLB.com's Ken Gurnick.

In other words, there will be no trade and no players moving from Chicago to Los Angeles. The Dodgers wouldn't comment on the report, and other media outlets are saying that trade details are being discussed. MLB.com usually isn't wrong in these types of stories, however. One way or the other, Manny's career in Los Angeles is over.

[questionmarkgrace]

Anyone who thinks that picking up Rios was a good move must think that the Cubs' signing of Soriano was a stroke of brilliance.

 

no signing soriano was stupid because you're buying the guy at the height of his talent. A guy who had a career year, who also had never seen the dl and a guy who was rumored and later confirmed to be 3 years older then he claimed at the time. etc.

 

I guess rios is a bit overpaid and his ops leaves something to be desired. But how is he any different than mike cameron a guy most people were clamoring for last off season? I didn't see anyone say he was overpaid. Take away last year from Rios and they are pretty comparable.

[Sammy Sofa]

I think you're unaware of the details of Rios' contract.

 

And I have no idea if you're defending or slamming the Cubs' signing of Soriano. That was a bizzare, rambling rant.

[questionmarkgrace]

I think you're unaware of the details of Rios' contract.

 

And I have no idea if you're defending or slamming the Cubs' signing of Soriano. That was a bizzare, rambling rant.

 

maybe if you read the part where I said "signing soriano was stupid because..."

 

rios makes 9.7 mil this year Cameron made 10mil last year.

 

Given last years options for free agent centerfielders it looks better.

 

from fangraphs:

 

I doubt anyone thinks that Rios’ true offensive talent is really .400 wOBA. ZiPS sees his current true talent (“rest of season”) as .350 wOBA. Given his performance so far, if he hits .350 with average defense (to add to his current +7 figure) for the rest of the season, he will be worth about five wins in 2010. That’s a great deal for the White Sox money this season (Rios is owed $9.7 million guaranteed).

 

What about going forward? From 2011 to 2014, Chicago owes Rios about $49 million dollars. Assuming a gentle salary inflation (7%) and 0.5 WAR a season decline, they’re paying for a player who will be worth somewhere between 3 and 3.5 wins in 2011. Assuming Rios is a .350 wOBA hitter, that makes him a +12 hitter over 700 PA. I currently estimate Rios to be about a +4 position neutral defender. +12 hitting + 4 defense +25 AL replacement level all times 85% playing time = a 3.5 WAR player. This is a decent deal for the Sox. Not great, it isn’t as though the contract would be easy to trade if they wanted to do so. But it hardly looks like an albatross at this point.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/revival-by-rios-his-contract-and-yes-sample-size/

[Sammy Sofa]

I think you're unaware of the details of Rios' contract.

 

And I have no idea if you're defending or slamming the Cubs' signing of Soriano. That was a bizzare, rambling rant.

 

maybe if you read the part where I said "signing soriano was stupid because..."

 

But then you talked about signing him "at the height of his career" and how "he had never been on the DL," which are good things, and then brought up the age issue as if it came up after he signed with the Cubs when it didn't.

 

rios makes 9.7 mil this year Cameron made 10mil last year.

 

Mike Cameron signed a 2-year deal before this season that is paying him $15.5 million total. Rios is signed through 2014 and after this year is making at least $12 million a year for the rest of his contract.

 

Rios' contract might be tolerable to certain teams if he can maintain his production, but it doesn't really fit in with the budgets that the White Sox have been set with for a while now. They've got an old team that's going to need a lot of turnover, so unless Reinsdorff is going to open up the wallet and expand their payroll, paying $12 million a year for Alex Rios isn't in their best interests.

[questionmarkgrace]

But then you talked about signing him "at the height of his career" and how "he had never been on the DL," which are good things, and then brought up the age issue as if it came up after he signed with the Cubs when it didn't.

 

I guess this depends on who you ask. Given soriano's past it was very probable that he probably wouldn't put up those numbers again. And frankly he was due for some DL time. If he consistently was putting up numbers like 05 thats one thing. But he wasnt.

 

Also I thought he changed his age just before or after the contract. I guess I'm wrong. Either way its pretty well evident that Soriano's contract is a joke. Hendry out bid himself by 20-30 million if the reports are correct. 'nuf said.

 

 

rios makes 9.7 mil this year Cameron made 10mil last year.

 

Mike Cameron signed a 2-year deal before this season that is paying him $15.5 million total. Rios is signed through 2014 and after this year is making at least $12 million a year for the rest of his contract.

 

yes I know what his contract is. I don't think its that bad and neither does fangraphs amongst others. If we can agree that cameron and rios are comparable then its not crazy to think that Cameron at 37 should make less than Rios at 29.

 

Rios' contract might be tolerable to certain teams if he can maintain his production, but it doesn't really fit in with the budgets that the White Sox have been set with for a while now. They've got an old team that's going to need a lot of turnover, so unless Reinsdorff is going to open up the wallet and expand their payroll, paying $12 million a year for Alex Rios isn't in their best interests.

 

Even though they are the fifth oldest team if you look at average age they arent all that old at key positions. konerko is the key guy they lose this year and they may get a home town discount or just start viciedo over there next year. Pierzinski could be had again for cheap or Donald Lucy could take over. If anything they have young(er) guys that will be eligible for free agency for the first time in Quentin, Floyd,and Danks in 2013 ,Alexie Ramirez 2012, Edwin Jackson 2012. This could be the drawback of the Rios contract but given the current bargain basement market of free agency they will be able to sign or resign guys at marginal prices and mix in the occasional more expensive player and bring up prospects. I really don't see it effecting them that much as they get to keep most of their current team for the next three years of the remaining four years on Rios' contract.

[Tracer Bullet]

Ill give you Peavy, but I really dont seee Brian Roberts or even Rich Harden as big names, not of the caliber of guys like Manny and Adrian. Harden was too high of a risk coming in to be considered that caliber, otherwise we wouldnt have gotten him for a decent pitching prospect, and low level catching prospect, and spare parts. The thing bout the White Sox is that their farm system always seems weak, but Kenny Williams always seems to get his guy. However, in this case, it all hinges on the Dodgers weekend.

 

Manny's a bigger name than any of those guys, but I don't know that Roberts and Harden are lesser names than Gonzalez. Roberts was a fairly big name back a few years ago in his prime and Harden still is.

 

I put Gonzalez in the same boat as Justin Morneau. Put him in a bigger market, and he may well be one of the top 10 "names" in the game, at least as far as potision players go.

 

That makes no sense. Manny became a huge name when he was in Boston "being Manny." If he stays in Cleveland, he's probably no bigger a name than Roberts or Harden. Now, he struggles to stay healthy. But "Adrian" is a big name b/c if he were in a big market, he would be a big name? How is Gonzalez different than those other guys (not a big name b/c not in a big market)?

 

KW doesn't always get his guy. He sometimes gets guys he goes after. And sometimes those moves end up well and frequently they don't.

[Tracer Bullet]

But then you talked about signing him "at the height of his career" and how "he had never been on the DL," which are good things, and then brought up the age issue as if it came up after he signed with the Cubs when it didn't.

 

I guess this depends on who you ask. Given soriano's past it was very probable that he probably wouldn't put up those numbers again. And frankly he was due for some DL time. If he consistently was putting up numbers like 05 thats one thing. But he wasnt.

 

Also I thought he changed his age just before or after the contract. I guess I'm wrong. Either way its pretty well evident that Soriano's contract is a joke. Hendry out bid himself by 20-30 million if the reports are correct. 'nuf said.

 

 

rios makes 9.7 mil this year Cameron made 10mil last year.

 

Mike Cameron signed a 2-year deal before this season that is paying him $15.5 million total. Rios is signed through 2014 and after this year is making at least $12 million a year for the rest of his contract.

 

yes I know what his contract is. I don't think its that bad and neither does fangraphs amongst others. If we can agree that cameron and rios are comparable then its not crazy to think that Cameron at 37 should make less than Rios at 29.

 

Rios' contract might be tolerable to certain teams if he can maintain his production, but it doesn't really fit in with the budgets that the White Sox have been set with for a while now. They've got an old team that's going to need a lot of turnover, so unless Reinsdorff is going to open up the wallet and expand their payroll, paying $12 million a year for Alex Rios isn't in their best interests.

 

Even though they are the fifth oldest team if you look at average age they arent all that old at key positions. konerko is the key guy they lose this year and they may get a home town discount or just start viciedo over there next year. Pierzinski could be had again for cheap or Donald Lucy could take over. If anything they have young(er) guys that will be eligible for free agency for the first time in Quentin, Floyd,and Danks in 2013 ,Alexie Ramirez 2012, Edwin Jackson 2012. This could be the drawback of the Rios contract but given the current bargain basement market of free agency they will be able to sign or resign guys at marginal prices and mix in the occasional more expensive player and bring up prospects. I really don't see it effecting them that much as they get to keep most of their current team for the next three years of the remaining four years on Rios' contract.

 

Where does fangraphs say that Rios' contract in 2011-2014 at $12m per year isn't bad?

[dew1679666265]

I put Gonzalez in the same boat as Justin Morneau. Put him in a bigger market, and he may well be one of the top 10 "names" in the game, at least as far as potision players go.

 

He'd be a much bigger name outside of San Diego, but I think Brian Roberts would have been as well. Maybe not top 10, but certainly on the level of a Robinson Cano.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why Soriano was likely to get injured based on the fact that he'd never been injured.

 

And that fangraphs article on Rios is 3 months old. He's now below the .350 wOBA they were cautiously regressing him to.

 

Also, when can we expect you to refer to Soriano's salary #s through fangraphs?

[Sammy Sofa]

But then you talked about signing him "at the height of his career" and how "he had never been on the DL," which are good things, and then brought up the age issue as if it came up after he signed with the Cubs when it didn't.

 

I guess this depends on who you ask. Given soriano's past it was very probable that he probably wouldn't put up those numbers again. And frankly he was due for some DL time. If he consistently was putting up numbers like 05 thats one thing. But he wasnt.

 

Also I thought he changed his age just before or after the contract. I guess I'm wrong. Either way its pretty well evident that Soriano's contract is a joke. Hendry out bid himself by 20-30 million if the reports are correct. 'nuf said.

 

Wait, what? So GM's should avoid signing players with minimal DL time because they'll be "due" for some? And they shouldn't necessarily sign someone after a career year? Why not? Soriano hasn't had to duplicate his 2005 to be very useful. Yes, we all agree it's a terrible contract (and should agree that Rios' is just a baby version of it), but your reasoning over why it's bad is very bizarre.

 

rios makes 9.7 mil this year Cameron made 10mil last year.

 

Mike Cameron signed a 2-year deal before this season that is paying him $15.5 million total. Rios is signed through 2014 and after this year is making at least $12 million a year for the rest of his contract.

 

yes I know what his contract is. I don't think its that bad and neither does fangraphs amongst others. If we can agree that cameron and rios are comparable then its not crazy to think that Cameron at 37 should make less than Rios at 29.

 

Cameron is making less than Rios. I don't understand why this is even coming up; Rios' contract is terrible because of its longevity. Cameron was only signed to two years to a reasonable rate.

 

Even though they are the fifth oldest team if you look at average age they arent all that old at key positions. konerko is the key guy they lose this year and they may get a home town discount or just start viciedo over there next year. Pierzinski could be had again for cheap or Donald Lucy could take over. If anything they have young(er) guys that will be eligible for free agency for the first time in Quentin, Floyd,and Danks in 2013 ,Alexie Ramirez 2012, Edwin Jackson 2012. This could be the drawback of the Rios contract but given the current bargain basement market of free agency they will be able to sign or resign guys at marginal prices and mix in the occasional more expensive player and bring up prospects. I really don't see it effecting them that much as they get to keep most of their current team for the next three years of the remaining four years on Rios' contract.

 

It's effecting them because they're paying a guy at least $12 million a year for the rest of his contract who, even now, can't keep up with the meager estimations that Fangraphs had for him to be productive. It wasn't a good move by Williams because the end result is them paying way too much for a pretty average player. In some ways it's even worse than Soriano because instead of dishing out his own incredibly stupid and expensive contract he went out and willfully took on someone else's.

[chuckywang]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

His line is .288/.335/.463/.798 at the CF position. I'd say that's about market value for 12M a year.

[Sammy Sofa]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

His line is .288/.335/.463/.798 at the CF position. I'd say that's about market value for 12M a year.

 

That line is inflated by his performance in May of this year where he went .344 .406 .700 1.106. His next best month was in April, where he managed .277 .326 .470 .796. Everything else has been with an OPS of .760 or lower and sharply declining each month.

 

Check out his sexy second half numbers:

 

.256 .285 .363 .648

 

Ooh, BABY. That Kenny always gets his man.

[ConstableRabbit]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

His line is .288/.335/.463/.798 at the CF position. I'd say that's about market value for 12M a year.

 

That line is inflated by his performance in May of this year where he went .344 .406 .700 1.106. His next best month was in April, where he managed .277 .326 .470 .796. Everything else has been with an OPS of .760 or lower and sharply declining each month.

 

Check out his sexy second half numbers:

 

.256 .285 .363 .648

 

Ooh, BABY. That Kenny always gets his man.

So if you take out his only good month, he sucks? I don't get it.

[Sammy Sofa]

Seems like you got it just fine. It's not like the White Sox get a mulligan for his bad months for the one really, really good month he had.

[SouthSideRyan]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

His line is .288/.335/.463/.798 at the CF position. I'd say that's about market value for 12M a year.

 

So Kosuke's contract is fair?

[Sammy Sofa]

Unless he rebounds dramatically this last month, Rios has now been awful for two seasons except for a little over a month this year where he hit out of his mind. There's not much there for WS fans to be optimistic about.

[chuckywang]

They definitely needed a centerfield so I thought it was a decent move for them last year until I saw how lost he looked, however in limited time. But given his production this year its was a solid move

 

You mean his .335 OBP and sub .800 OPS?

 

His line is .288/.335/.463/.798 at the CF position. I'd say that's about market value for 12M a year.

 

So Kosuke's contract is fair?

 

He plays RF. And FWIW, Fangraphs lists Rio's value at $11.7M. He's also been slumping recently.