Re: Starlin Castro promoted (!)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't know what you guys are so mad about. Sure, this has been the next step in the "jerk-them-around" process of wasting good, young hitting prospects for the last 15 times, but maybe this time it will be different?

 

I agree. Castro should stay in AA for the next few years, then take a few years to make sure he's got AAA figured out. There's no reason to rush him to Wrigley any sooner than 2015, at the earliest.

 

 

243 plate appearances at AA is *totally* all a 20-year-old needs in the minors.

[KaiserCesar]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Castro strikes out about half as much as either of those guys and actually earned this promotion rather than promoting Pie or Patterson when they weren't really dominating.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think you're overreacting, and this bull of cubs prospects being rushed or blah blah is kind of getting tired. To me, if a prospect is good, he'll be good, if he has potential he'll reach his potential under good coaching. Cedeno was hyped by the cubs not by other scouts, Cedeno turned out to be a ok to below average SS. Pie just wasn't as good as they thought, neither was patterson or choi. Wood and Prior were rushed but were as good as they thought, injuries hurt them. Like i said, if a player is good he'll end up being good.

 

The way you put it, you make it seem like some of the prospects the cubs "Casted off" ended up being something somewhere else. If you could, can you tell me of those prospects you speak of that were casted off too soon and had success elsewhere?

 

If your theory were true, there would never be a need for any sort of minor league development. If a good prospect is going to be a good player regardless of how his team treats the player, then why waste money on hiring minor league coaches?

 

Felix Pie's career has yet to be determined. He had an acceptable season last year and was off to a hot start before going on the DL, and he's still just 25 years old. And it's more than just hurting their development, it's handling an asset poorly.

 

Pie should have been an extremely valuable commodity in 2008. A 23 year old with increasingly impressive minor league numbers playing fantastic defense in AAA would net any team top notch trade value at the very least. Instead he got a call-up with spotty playing time in 2007, was completely jerked around in 2008 and lost all value to the team.

 

Castro is 20. As it stands now, he pretty much has to be an established veteran by 22 or risk being tossed aside by the Cubs. That is terrible asset management.

[nick23]

I don't see this as striclty a panic move. Fontenot has sucked for quite a while now and your top prospect is beating the cover off the ball in AA. What's the point in waiting another two months before calling him up? If he's as good as people think he is what's another 200 minor league at bats?

[Sammy Sofa]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

How did Pie "fizzle and become completely worthless?" The Cubs didn't get him consistent playing time and traded him. When he did start getting more AB's again with the Orioles and was a given a chance to adjust, as he had shown he was able to do at every other level, he started putting up good numbers.

 

Pie was only 24 last year. In the first half (119 PA) for the Orioles in definitely looked like he was struggling:

 

.234 .299 .355 .654

 

In the second half, however, he put up this line in 162 PA:

 

.290 .346 .497 .842 with 7 doubles, 7 HR and a triple.

 

He only had 22 PA this season before getting hurt, but he got off to a torrid start in that small sample size:

 

.400 .455 .650 1.105 with 1 HR.

 

It's foolish to write Pie off at this point.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Sammy Sofa

[jersey cubs fan]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Castro strikes out about half as much as either of those guys and actually earned this promotion rather than promoting Pie or Patterson when they weren't really dominating.

Pie had a 973 OPS in AAA the year he was called up to the majors. Patterson was promoted without actually dominating past low A (like what they are doing with Vitters), but Pie fits the treatment.

[jersey cubs fan]

How did Pie "fizzle and become completely worthless?"

 

He became completely worthless to the Cubs.

[chasinf5s]

FYI, it might rain tonight in Cincy, We might have to wait a day...

 

Im not sure really what to think, its something that might inject a sense of fun back into the team. Yes he could be horrible and he could only be mediocre but he will have the best hitting coach in the game and if our stupid manager will let him take his lumps and learn, we will be fine. I am not saying he is Ryan Braun but Braun spent a month in AAA and never looked back. Yes Castro never made it there but we shall see.

[Sammy Sofa]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Castro strikes out about half as much as either of those guys and actually earned this promotion rather than promoting Pie or Patterson when they weren't really dominating.

Pie had a 973 OPS in AAA the year he was called up to the majors. Patterson was promoted without actually dominating past low A (like what they are doing with Vitters), but Pie fits the treatment.

 

Yeah, Pie succeeded at every level of the minors. I don't know where this perception is coming from that he was Patterson Part Deux. This is my concern with Castro, that the fans are going to turn on him quickly when he doesn't dominate right away.

[cheapseats]

This could have been avoided if we signed Kelly Johnson when he was let go by the Braves. Talk about a panic move.

 

I don't think anyone could have predicted that Kelly Johnson would put up the numbers he's put up so far.

No but everyone predicted he would have been better than Fontenot and Baker.

 

Who is everyone? Kelly was horrible last year.

 

ZiPS Chone Marcel Fans Bill James

Kelly Johnson .824 .794 .777 .769 .799

Mike Fontenot .751 .726 .752 .714 .758

[Guest]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Yes, and the United States and Angola are both countries, that doesn't mean their problems or best courses of action are similar.

 

Pie and Patterson both had high K rates(especially considering how little they walked), making them more likely to be exploited by MLB pitchers at a young age. Castro is extremely rare in that he has a very low strikeout rate, making him less likely to fall flat on his face at the MLB level, and as a result, probably result in more patience from the coaching staff(this was Pie's problem). Furthermore, Castro has shown a consistent ability to adapt to promotions very well, including improving the weakest points of his game. When he was hitting .400 a couple weeks ago I mentioned that his walk rate was probably so low because he was getting hits all the time. Through the first 14 games he was killing the ball and had 3 walks. In the last 12 games he's leveled off a bit but has 6 walks. His walk rate improved by month last year as well, despite a promotion mid-season.

 

Again, as long as he plays consistently(which is more likely to happen than with Pie/Patterson because of his skillset, and because the alternative is Fontenot/Baker), then there's not a lot wrong with this.

[Sammy Sofa]

This could have been avoided if we signed Kelly Johnson when he was let go by the Braves. Talk about a panic move.

 

I don't think anyone could have predicted that Kelly Johnson would put up the numbers he's put up so far.

No but everyone predicted he would have been better than Fontenot and Baker.

 

Who is everyone? Kelly was horrible last year.

 

ZiPS Chone Marcel Fans Bill James

Kelly Johnson .824 .794 .777 .769 .799

Mike Fontenot .751 .726 .752 .714 .758

 

Yech, those are both wretched options for 2B. Yeah, that's technically predicting he would be better, but neither was being predicted to be a good option at 2B except ZiPS. Johnson's numbers right now are well beyond anyone's expectations.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Sammy Sofa

[bushwoodcc]

Tracy is going down to make room. That leaves Baker as the backup to Ramirez at 3B.

 

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/05/castro-likely-to-join-cubs-in-cincinnati.html

[chasinf5s]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Castro strikes out about half as much as either of those guys and actually earned this promotion rather than promoting Pie or Patterson when they weren't really dominating.

Pie had a 973 OPS in AAA the year he was called up to the majors. Patterson was promoted without actually dominating past low A (like what they are doing with Vitters), but Pie fits the treatment.

 

Yeah, Pie succeeded at every level of the minors. I don't know where this perception is coming from that he was Patterson Part Deux. This is my concern with Castro, that the fans are going to turn on him quickly when he doesn't dominate right away.

 

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

[jersey cubs fan]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

[Sammy Sofa]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

 

Too true. One of my biggest reasons of not wanting to see Castro up this year before September is Lou.

[Sever82]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

 

Are you suggesting they should trade Castro?

 

I agree with the Piniella part, i hate Piniella and think he's a moron when it comes to managing young players. But I can see upper management letting him know that they want this kid to play period, despite how much he struggles.

[cheapseats]

 

Who is everyone? Kelly was horrible last year.

 

ZiPS Chone Marcel Fans Bill James

Kelly Johnson .824 .794 .777 .769 .799

Mike Fontenot .751 .726 .752 .714 .758

 

Yech, those are both wretched options for 2B. Yeah, that's technically predicting he would be better, but neither was being predicted to be a good option at 2B except ZiPS. Johnson's numbers right now are well beyond anyone's expectations.

 

ZiPS and Chone were the two most accurate projection systems last year.

 

ZiPS had Johnson rated as the third-best offensive 2B before the season, and Chone had him at #9.

 

You're right, Johnson would have been a wretched option for 2B and nobody could have possibly predicted he'd be much better than Fontenot. :roll:

[jersey cubs fan]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

 

Too true. One of my biggest reasons of not wanting to see Castro up this year before September is Lou.

 

And possibly as a not unimportant detail they also have the same media following the team, a media that loves to bash the disappointing prospect who fails to fulfill expectations.

[chasinf5s]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

 

Are you suggesting they should trade Castro?

 

I agree with the Piniella part, i hate Piniella and think he's a moron when it comes to managing young players. But I can see upper management letting him know that they want this kid to play period, despite how much he struggles.

 

No he is saying that with Paterson and Pie, they were traded when they had garbage trade value because of how the team handled them.

[jersey cubs fan]

The problem with Pie is Piniella would pull him after a bad game and then he would sit for a few days and then get a start and go 0-4

 

Likewise, the problem with Castro is Piniella. If this team didn't have such a terrible track record with this sort of thing, I wouldn't really care. But they have the same people making decisions, the same manager who changes his mind on an hourly basis and is all too quick to open the door to a doghouse. The same GM who is all too willing to wait until a player is at his lowest value before pulling the trigger on a deal.

 

Are you suggesting they should trade Castro?

 

I agree with the Piniella part, i hate Piniella and think he's a moron when it comes to managing young players. But I can see upper management letting him know that they want this kid to play period, despite how much he struggles.

I'm not suggesting that at all. As for your other point, I would also see upper management letting Lou know they want Pie to play period, despite how much he struggles, and that didn't work out all that well. Upper management can't control Lou.

[erik316wttn]

Pie and Patterson are really terrible analogies to this situation.

 

How so?

 

Both were top prospects with high celings (supposedly). Both were rushed to the majors well before they were ready, and both fizzled out and became completely worthless in the short span of a few seasons.

 

This is following the same pattern. I don't see how it's out of line to expect the same result.

 

Castro strikes out about half as much as either of those guys and actually earned this promotion rather than promoting Pie or Patterson when they weren't really dominating.

Pie had a 973 OPS in AAA the year he was called up to the majors. Patterson was promoted without actually dominating past low A (like what they are doing with Vitters), but Pie fits the treatment.

 

Yeah, Pie succeeded at every level of the minors. I don't know where this perception is coming from that he was Patterson Part Deux. This is my concern with Castro, that the fans are going to turn on him quickly when he doesn't dominate right away.

 

If he struggles, I would hope the fans realize it's not his fault that he was promoted too quickly. I think the average Cubs fan is at least intelligent enough to know that.

[jersey cubs fan]

If he struggles, I would hope the fans realize it's not his fault that he was promoted too quickly. I think the average Cubs fan is at least intelligent enough to know that.

 

I think you grossly overestimate the average Cubs fan. They've heard all about him for 6+ months now, and if he's not good soon, they are going to feel they were sold a bill of goods.

[chasinf5s]

youre average cub fans knows very little about baseball, after going to wrigley it makes me think that cubs fans are some of the dumbest in baseball.

[KaiserCesar]

Fangraphs take on it

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/castro-called-to-cubs/