Strasburg anticipation thread

[C.C.]

I would've pulled him after the 6th at 80 pitches.

[Prizefight]

Mitch 'wild thing' Williams was on Mully and Hanley this morning saying he would have kept him in all 9 innings if he was the manager. Also dropped the gems that pitch counts were the worst thing to ever happen in baseball and that fatigue doesn't make a pitcher more prone to injury, only bad mechanics.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Mitch Williams is a raving lunatic, and I'm still baffled as to how he got a job at MLB Network.

[Prizefight]

Mitch Williams is a raving lunatic, and I'm still baffled as to how he got a job at MLB Network.

 

Was thinking the same thing listening to him.

 

It baffles me that anyone thinks it's a good idea to run a guys pitch count up over 100 pitches in his first major league start unless they get some sort of kickback when a guy goes to visit Dr. James Andrews

[SouthSideRyan]

fatigue doesn't make a pitcher more prone to injury, only bad mechanics.

 

And where do bad mechanics come from?

[Prizefight]

fatigue doesn't make a pitcher more prone to injury, only bad mechanics.

 

And where do bad mechanics come from?

 

 

It's fully possible for someone to have bad mechanics without being fatigued.

[SouthSideRyan]

fatigue doesn't make a pitcher more prone to injury, only bad mechanics.

 

And where do bad mechanics come from?

 

 

It's fully possible for someone to have bad mechanics without being fatigued.

 

Well obviously.

[davell]

While I certainly agree on limiting pitchers counts and innings, especially youngsters, what's changed over the last 20 years or so? It was a different ballgame even when Williams pitched and it was much different 30-40 years ago. Why are guys much more apt to get hurt now than they were then? I CAN see why former players are frustrated by this kind of thing at least......

 

Is it that guys are throwing too many different pitches at this point? I have no idea what kind of arsenal a Bob Feller or a Bob Gibson had, for instance. Because they were throwing just as hard as these guys today.

 

My thinking is that MAYBE pitchers from back then could "take off" a few batters per game, as the hitters weren't as good as they are today, 1-8 or 1-9 in an order, and that it could at least "technically" help limit a guys pitches somewhat.

 

Anyway, just curious to see what others thoughts are.......

[Sammy Sofa]

Lower mounds, more power hitters, pitchers needing more pitches in their arsenal.

[Clem Fandango]

14 k's and zero walks? [expletive]

 

and only 94 pitches. if he wasn't on a pitch count, it would have been even higher

 

If there was ever a game to loosen the reigns on his pitch count it was this one. Could've given him a chance at an MLB record that likely would've stuck for a long time, while at the same time giving the people who showed up an even better pitching performance the the one they actually got. It's already going to be remembered as one of the most dominating pitching debuts in history, but it could've been THE most dominating in history if they just loosened up and let him go to 110 just this one time. It was a special game, they should've made a special circumstance

 

that's just absolutely ridiculous.

 

And I won't argue with that opinion, because you're right it is kind of ridiculous, I just really wanted to see him pitch one more inning to see him break a record that has been standing since 1954. Why not give him that kind of opportunity while giving him just a little bit more wiggle room? It's not like once he reached 101 pitches his arm would've exploded. He still had 6 more pitches before his reported pitch count cap, and with the way he was pitching he probably would've needed 10-15 pitches to get through the next inning. He probably could've done it in less than 110

[abuck1220]

does anyone really give a [expletive] about the record for most k's in a debut or whatever? that's some kind of milestone you want to risk injury to go after?

[davearm2]

Interesting SI article on this topic featuring the Rangers and Nolan Ryan/Mike Maddux. Gist of it is, they're essentially throwing out pitch counts and pushing their pitchers harder, expecting pitch and inning workloads similar to Ryan's days.

 

Some choice blurbs:

Says Rangers pitching coach Mike Maddux, "This generation of players has become a creature of the pitch count. Their ceiling has been lowered. It's up to us to jack it back up."

 

"What we're trying to get rid of is that thing in pitchers' heads of how many pitches they have," says Maddux. "I'd be out there asking how they feel, and they'd say, 'Well, how many pitches do I have?' And I'd say, 'Doesn't matter—how do you feel?'"

 

And yet Ryan still hears from critics who say the Rangers are pushing pitchers too far, that today's game has changed too much—the lineups are deeper, the ballparks and the strike zone smaller—for hurlers to be handled the way they were in Ryan's era. "You're always going to have people against you, and anytime you do something different, you're going to be criticized," says Ryan. "I know there are people out there waiting for one of our guys to come down with an arm injury and throw everything back at our face. But I know what we're doing here is the right thing."

 

"Baseball got into allowing these kids to not do the work," he says. "Money is the reason and the excuse you get from organizations: that we're protecting our investments. Well, protect the investment [too much], and you may not get the return."

 

In the Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers, published in 2004, sabermetric guru Bill James argues, "Backing away from the pitcher's limits too far doesn't make a pitcher less vulnerable; it makes him more vulnerable. And pushing the envelope, while it may lead to a catastrophic event, is more likely to enhance the pitcher's durability than to destroy it."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1169750/index.htm

[OleMissCub]

Lower mounds, more power hitters, pitchers needing more pitches in their arsenal.

 

Obviously agree with the first two, not sure about the last one though. Seems to me that most of the time I read about older pitchers they had the ability to throw more pitch types than guys today. I've often come across stories about power pitchers (just for example) from the 50's or 60's also mixing in a knuckler in there. There's a great picture of Walter Johnson demonstrating his grips for six different pitches. I'd think pitchers today are more skilled at fewer pitch types.

[imb]

Watching the highlights again, strasburg was painting the corners with that fastball, which really reminded me of Mark Prior. Only he was throwing it 98-99. The whole thing was awesome to watch but it also made me sad.

[OleMissCub]

My thinking is that MAYBE pitchers from back then could "take off" a few batters per game, as the hitters weren't as good as they are today, 1-8 or 1-9 in an order, and that it could at least "technically" help limit a guys pitches somewhat.

 

My view on this question is that I think starting pitchers back in the old days simply HAD to have rubber arms and if they didn't then they weren't starters. I'm sure there are plenty of guys pitching today that COULD throw 160 pitches a game without incident like Livan Hernandez or Randy Johnson have recently, but we'll never know because pitchers are handled with such care. Back in the old days when pitchers weren't such a monetary investment, they were able to find out who could handle that type of pitching stress and who couldn't.

 

So I think in the old days it had more to do with the guys having rubber arms than taking off the gas when they faced certain parts of the order.

[OleMissCub]

Watching the highlights again, strasburg was painting the corners with that fastball, which really reminded me of Mark Prior. Only he was throwing it 98-99. The whole thing was awesome to watch but it also made me sad.

 

Yeah I thought the same thing. Certainly reminded me of how fun it was to watch Prior when he first came up.

[Jake]

I wished they pulled him after the first.

[Guest]

Watching the highlights again, strasburg was painting the corners with that fastball, which really reminded me of Mark Prior. Only he was throwing it 98-99. The whole thing was awesome to watch but it also made me sad.

 

I don't remember Prior's fastball moving like that. One of them came out of his hand heading towards the outside corner and ended up right on the inside corner. At 98 mph. Insane.

[Prizefight]

I wished they pulled him after the first.

 

:-))

[Sammy Sofa]

Lower mounds, more power hitters, pitchers needing more pitches in their arsenal.

 

Obviously agree with the first two, not sure about the last one though. Seems to me that most of the time I read about older pitchers they had the ability to throw more pitch types than guys today. I've often come across stories about power pitchers (just for example) from the 50's or 60's also mixing in a knuckler in there. There's a great picture of Walter Johnson demonstrating his grips for six different pitches. I'd think pitchers today are more skilled at fewer pitch types.

 

It seems like in the "old days" guys could go out there and just power-power-power and then throw in a trick pitch or specialty pitch or whatever every so often whereas today guys basically need to mix it up constantly due to both the lower mounds and the proliferation of power and the smaller parks. Yeah, the old guys could often throw more pitches, but they didn't need to throw as many different pitches over the course of a game or even an AB as they have to today.

 

I don't look at it as an issue of who was tougher or more skilled...it's just different eras of baseball.

[TruffleShuffle]

14 k's and zero walks? [expletive]

 

and only 94 pitches. if he wasn't on a pitch count, it would have been even higher

 

If there was ever a game to loosen the reigns on his pitch count it was this one. Could've given him a chance at an MLB record that likely would've stuck for a long time, while at the same time giving the people who showed up an even better pitching performance the the one they actually got. It's already going to be remembered as one of the most dominating pitching debuts in history, but it could've been THE most dominating in history if they just loosened up and let him go to 110 just this one time. It was a special game, they should've made a special circumstance

 

i'm pretty sure he didn't go past 90 pitches or 6 innings in any of his minor league stars, so just let him go for 110 in his major league debut? this is a terrible idea.

[TruffleShuffle]

Lower mounds, more power hitters, pitchers needing more pitches in their arsenal.

 

Obviously agree with the first two, not sure about the last one though. Seems to me that most of the time I read about older pitchers they had the ability to throw more pitch types than guys today. I've often come across stories about power pitchers (just for example) from the 50's or 60's also mixing in a knuckler in there. There's a great picture of Walter Johnson demonstrating his grips for six different pitches. I'd think pitchers today are more skilled at fewer pitch types.

 

the hard slider and splitter are damaging to arms and those pitches have become much more common in the last 25 or so years. mixing in a knuckleball isn't going to mess up anyone's arm; phil niekro pitched until he was 100 and tim wakefield is on the way to doing that.

 

people think that pitching injuries are so much more common, but they've happened a lot throughout baseball history - we just don't remember most of the guys who got hurt and didn't make it because the advanced treatments and surgeries didn't exist, so once their arm started acting up it generally meant their career was over.

[Clem Fandango]

14 k's and zero walks? [expletive]

 

and only 94 pitches. if he wasn't on a pitch count, it would have been even higher

 

If there was ever a game to loosen the reigns on his pitch count it was this one. Could've given him a chance at an MLB record that likely would've stuck for a long time, while at the same time giving the people who showed up an even better pitching performance the the one they actually got. It's already going to be remembered as one of the most dominating pitching debuts in history, but it could've been THE most dominating in history if they just loosened up and let him go to 110 just this one time. It was a special game, they should've made a special circumstance

 

i'm pretty sure he didn't go past 90 pitches or 6 innings in any of his minor league stars, so just let him go for 110 in his major league debut? this is a terrible idea.

 

You're right, I thought 100 was his cap in the minors as well, which is why I figured an extra 10 wouldn't hurt (obviously it wouldn't since that's what they upped it to for the majors). But an extra 20 is way too much. My mistake.

[OleMissCub]

I believe Christy Mathewson wrote a book in the 1910's that I think may be available for free on Google Books. Would be interesting to take a peek and see how he handled batters a full century ago.

[Tracer Bullet]

Watching the highlights again, strasburg was painting the corners with that fastball, which really reminded me of Mark Prior. Only he was throwing it 98-99. The whole thing was awesome to watch but it also made me sad.

 

I don't remember Prior's fastball moving like that. One of them came out of his hand heading towards the outside corner and ended up right on the inside corner. At 98 mph. Insane.

 

Prior didn't have that kind of movement on the FB. Though there were a couple that seemed to miss spots, but moved so far that the hitter still missed (or didn't swing and they were inside corner strikes rather than outside corner). Could have been adrenaline too.

 

But his motion and whatnot reminded me of Prior and I, like imb, got a little sad.