Cameron signs with Red Sox

[MSG T]

There's plenty to criticize Hendry for.

 

Folks just come off looking pretty foolish when he does things one way, and then the opposite way, and both times he gets slammed.

 

I'm just gonna throw this out there....maybe each year is different. Maybe each year requires a different approach based on the free agent market, the demand for those players, the salaries being bandied about, the perceived quality of the players you currently have under contract, the number of holes you need to fill, and the moves that your division rivals are making.

 

Maybe.

Obviously.

 

Given the totality of circumstances, I'd love to hear the rationale for why moving swiftly was the wrong approach last year, but conversely playing wait-and-see is the wrong approach this year.

 

 

You pay attention to the market. If it is moving swiftly, you start to make deals. If it is stagnant, you wait. Especially if a FA class is particularly good or bad. In last years climate, it became obvious, rather quickly, that good deals were there to be had by waiting. That was discussed on here many times. You also don't make it known that you are targeting in on one player, or particular type of player.

 

He's done this before, remember the Sosa debacle that has been referred to in this thread. He either jumps in way too quick, or bases everything around one move, then can't do anything because of it. Targeting one player or having to make a move before the rest of the offseason can start or screwing around with one move that's one again off again. How many times do we need to see the same story to know that it won't end well.

 

When we're talking about keeping Milton Bradley as best case scenario, when he shouldn't have been signed in the first place, how much more proof do we need that Hendry isn't equipped for the job?

[jersey cubs fan]

Granted this offseason is an exception, but usually the Cubs are right there in the hunt when the top names come available on the trade or free agent markets, be it Beltran, Peavy, Roberts, and on and on. Hendry catches his fair share of the big fish -- for better or for worse.

 

Really? I wouldn't label any Cubs acquisition as a big fish. Nomar was closest but he was a banged up shell of his former self, and Soriano was not a top player. The Cubs have been named during rumor stages, but reports of interest aren't meaningful when compared with actually acquiring the players.

 

Ramirez was highly flawed, DLee was a second or maybe third tier 1b. Barrett was a nobody, Fukudome was intriguing, but not a top notch international free agent. Dempster was a rehab project.

 

Seriously, name a big fish he caught.

I guess we're just using different definitions of big fish. In my book Ramirez, Lee, Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley, Nomar, and Harden all count.

 

Those guys were all expected to be major differencemakers when they were acquired. Some have been, others not so much.

 

 

That is a very loose definition of big fish. Ramirez and Lee shouldn't even be debatable, they clearly were not. Soriano was only a big fish because Hendry gave him that stupid contract, but Soriano was never elite and was always a highly flawed player that wasn't going to come close to fullfiling his contract. If you want to include him, go ahead, but he was more like the only fish the Cubs could find in their decrepit pond than a big fish. Fukudome? No, he was an interesting player and a good get, but at the time he was already considered well down the totem pole of Japanese stars coming over. He was a secondary player. Bradley? No way, that's a joke. Harden? Nope, he was as big of an injury risk as there was and the guy I give Hendry most credit for targetting and acquiring, but come on, anybody who can't get a big contract on the free agent market is not a big fish.

 

Vladdy was a big fish. Sabathia, ARod, Beltran, Manny, at one point in time the Big Unit, these are big fish.

[dew1679666265]

Nomar was closest but he was a banged up shell of his former self

 

Nomar had an .867 OPS in 156 at bats with Boston the year Hendry acquired him. At SS, that's a very good OPS and is indicative of a big fish at the time he was acquired. He was only 30 years old when Hendry acquired him and ended up with an .819 OPS in his first year with us.

 

He underperformed in Chicago, but nobody could have expected it when he was acquired. He was definitely a big fish.

 

Nomar was clearly on the decline from when he was one of the best at his position. And Boston was itching to get rid of him.

 

He was clearly very talented, but as injury prone as Milton Bradley and a defensive liability.

 

From 2002 through 2004 he was solidly in the mid-.800s in OPS. That was a decline from the 1.000+ OPS he posted in two seasons, but I doubt anybody expected that out of a SS for all that long. And an .860-890 OPS from a shortstop is "big fish" numbers.

 

As for the injuries, in his first 7 major league seasons (up through the 2003 season), Nomar had 6 seasons where he had more than 500 at bats. Through 10 major league seasons, Bradley has had more than 500 at bats once. Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

[Guest]

Rick Ankeil will be the next ex-Cardinal CF we'll be rooting for.

[davearm2]

Granted this offseason is an exception, but usually the Cubs are right there in the hunt when the top names come available on the trade or free agent markets, be it Beltran, Peavy, Roberts, and on and on. Hendry catches his fair share of the big fish -- for better or for worse.

 

Really? I wouldn't label any Cubs acquisition as a big fish. Nomar was closest but he was a banged up shell of his former self, and Soriano was not a top player. The Cubs have been named during rumor stages, but reports of interest aren't meaningful when compared with actually acquiring the players.

 

Ramirez was highly flawed, DLee was a second or maybe third tier 1b. Barrett was a nobody, Fukudome was intriguing, but not a top notch international free agent. Dempster was a rehab project.

 

Seriously, name a big fish he caught.

I guess we're just using different definitions of big fish. In my book Ramirez, Lee, Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley, Nomar, and Harden all count.

 

Those guys were all expected to be major differencemakers when they were acquired. Some have been, others not so much.

 

 

That is a very loose definition of big fish. Ramirez and Lee shouldn't even be debatable, they clearly were not. Soriano was only a big fish because Hendry gave him that stupid contract, but Soriano was never elite and was always a highly flawed player that wasn't going to come close to fullfiling his contract. If you want to include him, go ahead, but he was more like the only fish the Cubs could find in their decrepit pond than a big fish. Fukudome? No, he was an interesting player and a good get, but at the time he was already considered well down the totem pole of Japanese stars coming over. He was a secondary player. Bradley? No way, that's a joke. Harden? Nope, he was as big of an injury risk as there was and the guy I give Hendry most credit for targetting and acquiring, but come on, anybody who can't get a big contract on the free agent market is not a big fish.

 

Vladdy was a big fish. Sabathia, ARod, Beltran, Manny, at one point in time the Big Unit, these are big fish.

Well like I said I guess we're just using different definitions of big fish. Reasonable minds can disagree on the point, but there's no need to make such an ass of yourself arguing semantics.

[jersey cubs fan]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

[jersey cubs fan]

Granted this offseason is an exception, but usually the Cubs are right there in the hunt when the top names come available on the trade or free agent markets, be it Beltran, Peavy, Roberts, and on and on. Hendry catches his fair share of the big fish -- for better or for worse.

 

Really? I wouldn't label any Cubs acquisition as a big fish. Nomar was closest but he was a banged up shell of his former self, and Soriano was not a top player. The Cubs have been named during rumor stages, but reports of interest aren't meaningful when compared with actually acquiring the players.

 

Ramirez was highly flawed, DLee was a second or maybe third tier 1b. Barrett was a nobody, Fukudome was intriguing, but not a top notch international free agent. Dempster was a rehab project.

 

Seriously, name a big fish he caught.

I guess we're just using different definitions of big fish. In my book Ramirez, Lee, Soriano, Fukudome, Bradley, Nomar, and Harden all count.

 

Those guys were all expected to be major differencemakers when they were acquired. Some have been, others not so much.

 

 

That is a very loose definition of big fish. Ramirez and Lee shouldn't even be debatable, they clearly were not. Soriano was only a big fish because Hendry gave him that stupid contract, but Soriano was never elite and was always a highly flawed player that wasn't going to come close to fullfiling his contract. If you want to include him, go ahead, but he was more like the only fish the Cubs could find in their decrepit pond than a big fish. Fukudome? No, he was an interesting player and a good get, but at the time he was already considered well down the totem pole of Japanese stars coming over. He was a secondary player. Bradley? No way, that's a joke. Harden? Nope, he was as big of an injury risk as there was and the guy I give Hendry most credit for targetting and acquiring, but come on, anybody who can't get a big contract on the free agent market is not a big fish.

 

Vladdy was a big fish. Sabathia, ARod, Beltran, Manny, at one point in time the Big Unit, these are big fish.

Well like I said I guess we're just using different definitions of big fish. Reasonable minds can disagree on the point, but there's no need to make such an ass of yourself arguing semantics.

You're such a pleasant person.

[fromthestretch]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

 

Prior to 2001, he was probably comparable to Aramis in the injury department in the sense that he would miss 15-20 games due to nagging injuries. That's enough of a red flag though, especially for someone in their early-to-mid 20s. Oddly enough, his two most durable seasons followed the season in which he missed the most time due to injury.

[jersey cubs fan]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

 

Prior to 2001, he was probably comparable to Aramis in the injury department in the sense that he would miss 15-20 games due to nagging injuries. That's enough of a red flag though, especially for someone in their early-to-mid 20s. Oddly enough, his two most durable seasons followed the season in which he missed the most time due to injury.

 

He had the nagging leg things, then the big wrist issue where he missed a season, his range was becoming a serious question mark and he was on the wrong side of 30. He was red flag factory. I was excited as hell and hoped to get something out of it, but he was the biggest fish they acquired and still highly damaged goods.

[Guest]

The Cubs always seem to get the second the second tier guys or top tier guys with huge question marks.

 

If you want to count Soriano as a top tier guy (I don't)- he didn't have a defensive position that he could play, still doesn't.

 

Nomar- Injuries and a bad attitude.

 

Aramis (wasn't a top tire guy)- bad attitude and injuries.

 

Harden- Injuries

 

Lee wasn't a top tier guy and he fell into Hendry's lap after Baltimore couldn't sign him to an extension.

[MSG T]

The Cubs always seem to get the second the second tier guys or top tier guys with huge question marks.

 

If you want to count Soriano as a top tier guy (I don't)- he didn't have a defensive position that he could play, still doesn't.

 

Nomar- Injuries and a bad attitude.

 

Aramis (wasn't a top tire guy)- bad attitude and injuries.

 

Harden- Injuries

 

Lee wasn't a top tier guy and he fell into Hendry's lap after Baltimore couldn't sign him to an extension.

 

 

Baltimore? Did you mean Florida, or am I not remembering someone that I should?

[jersey cubs fan]

Did you mean Florida, or am I not remembering someone that I should?

I believe he was originally set to be traded to BMore but they wanted an extension before making the move, and couldn't get it done.?

[dew1679666265]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

 

I didn't say he had no injury issues, I said to describe his pre-Cub days as Bradley-esque in injuries was very incorrect. He had red flags, but never missed huge amounts of time (save for one year). Bradley has pretty close to always missed significant time.

[jersey cubs fan]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

 

I didn't say he had no injury issues, I said to describe his pre-Cub days as Bradley-esque in injuries was very incorrect. He had red flags, but never missed huge amounts of time (save for one year). Bradley has pretty close to always missed significant time.

 

 

He got hurt every year and missed nearly an entire season. Not sure why you'd complain about calling that similar to Bradley. It doesn't make a difference because Nomar was clearly damaged goods when the Cubs got him.

[sweetpeteman]

Since being a Cub, Nomar has had Bradley-esque injury issues, but they were not there beforehand.

 

Wrong. Nomar's health was becoming an issue before he became a Cub.

 

I didn't say he had no injury issues, I said to describe his pre-Cub days as Bradley-esque in injuries was very incorrect. He had red flags, but never missed huge amounts of time (save for one year). Bradley has pretty close to always missed significant time.

 

 

He got hurt every year and missed nearly an entire season. Not sure why you'd complain about calling that similar to Bradley. It doesn't make a difference because Nomar was clearly damaged goods when the Cubs got him.

 

 

After his 1st season where he played only 22 games, Nomar averaged.... you know what, no. You show evidence of a significant injury history, besides just saying it exists.

[jersey cubs fan]

After his 1st season where he played only 22 games, Nomar averaged.... you know what, no. You show evidence of a significant injury history, besides just saying it exists.

 

He got hurt every year and played on 21 games in 2001 due to a serious injury. I don't know what else you want me to say. He was a max effort middle infielder who was always dealing with health issues who was destined to decline quickly in his 30's.

 

Oh and the answer to your question that you stopped asking, I assume because you realize it only proved the point further, is 129. 129 games per year in his pre-Cubs seasons not counting his first year. That's a guy who missed a lot of time.

Edited December 15, 2009 by jersey cubs fan

[Guest]

The Cubs always seem to get the second the second tier guys or top tier guys with huge question marks.

 

If you want to count Soriano as a top tier guy (I don't)- he didn't have a defensive position that he could play, still doesn't.

 

Nomar- Injuries and a bad attitude.

 

Aramis (wasn't a top tire guy)- bad attitude and injuries.

 

Harden- Injuries

 

Lee wasn't a top tier guy and he fell into Hendry's lap after Baltimore couldn't sign him to an extension.

 

 

Baltimore? Did you mean Florida, or am I not remembering someone that I should?

He was traded to Baltimore who couldn't get a LTC worked out. Then Hendry swooped. Edited December 15, 2009 by CubinNY

[MSG T]

The Cubs always seem to get the second the second tier guys or top tier guys with huge question marks.

 

If you want to count Soriano as a top tier guy (I don't)- he didn't have a defensive position that he could play, still doesn't.

 

Nomar- Injuries and a bad attitude.

 

Aramis (wasn't a top tire guy)- bad attitude and injuries.

 

Harden- Injuries

 

Lee wasn't a top tier guy and he fell into Hendry's lap after Baltimore couldn't sign him to an extension.

 

He was traded to Baltimore who couldn't get a LTC worked out. Then Hendry swooped.

Baltimore? Did you mean Florida, or am I not remembering someone that I should?

 

OK, I didn't remember that. I stand corrected.

[sweetpeteman]

After his 1st season where he played only 22 games, Nomar averaged.... you know what, no. You show evidence of a significant injury history, besides just saying it exists.

 

He got hurt every year and played on 21 games in 2001 due to a serious injury. I don't know what else you want me to say. He was a max effort middle infielder who was always dealing with health issues who was destined to decline quickly in his 30's.

 

Oh and the answer to your question that you stopped asking, I assume because you realize it only proved the point further, is 129. 129 games per year in his pre-Cubs seasons not counting his first year. That's a guy who missed a lot of time.

 

 

 

129/yr is bad except when you realize that that number is severly suppressed by the one season where he played only 21 games. The two years after that (the two years before the trade) he played in 156 games each season, and in the 4 years before it was 143. While not great, its not the history you're making it out to be.

 

So you have 1 season where a wrist injury sidelined him for a significant amount of time and...

[jersey cubs fan]

After his 1st season where he played only 22 games, Nomar averaged.... you know what, no. You show evidence of a significant injury history, besides just saying it exists.

 

He got hurt every year and played on 21 games in 2001 due to a serious injury. I don't know what else you want me to say. He was a max effort middle infielder who was always dealing with health issues who was destined to decline quickly in his 30's.

 

Oh and the answer to your question that you stopped asking, I assume because you realize it only proved the point further, is 129. 129 games per year in his pre-Cubs seasons not counting his first year. That's a guy who missed a lot of time.

 

 

 

129/yr is bad except when you realize that that number is severly suppressed by the one season where he played only 21 games. The two years after that (the two years before the trade) he played in 156 games each season, and in the 4 years before it was 143. While not great, its not the history you're making it out to be.

 

So you have 1 season where a wrist injury sidelined him for a significant amount of time and...

 

And a whole bunch of other minor nagging injuries that add up and lead to inevitable trouble for 30-something middle infielders. If you want to pretendthere weren't health issues with Nomar pre-Cubs, feel free. But it's a ridiculous sentiment.

[dew1679666265]

After his 1st season where he played only 22 games, Nomar averaged.... you know what, no. You show evidence of a significant injury history, besides just saying it exists.

 

He got hurt every year and played on 21 games in 2001 due to a serious injury. I don't know what else you want me to say. He was a max effort middle infielder who was always dealing with health issues who was destined to decline quickly in his 30's.

 

Oh and the answer to your question that you stopped asking, I assume because you realize it only proved the point further, is 129. 129 games per year in his pre-Cubs seasons not counting his first year. That's a guy who missed a lot of time.

 

 

 

129/yr is bad except when you realize that that number is severly suppressed by the one season where he played only 21 games. The two years after that (the two years before the trade) he played in 156 games each season, and in the 4 years before it was 143. While not great, its not the history you're making it out to be.

 

So you have 1 season where a wrist injury sidelined him for a significant amount of time and...

 

And a whole bunch of other minor nagging injuries that add up and lead to inevitable trouble for 30-something middle infielders. If you want to pretendthere weren't health issues with Nomar pre-Cubs, feel free. But it's a ridiculous sentiment.

 

There were health issues, but you said he was very similar to Bradley in that respect. How can a guy who had 500+ ABs in 6 of 7 seasons be similar injury-wise to a guy who in a 10-season career has had more than 500 ABs 1 time?

 

The injury issues were there, I just think you're exaggerating them.

[17 Seconds]

JUST GIVE JIM A CHANCE YOU GUYS. i know he keeps making terrible moves, BUT HE MADE AN AWESOME TEAM IN 2008. just give him this 18th chance and you won't regret it this time

 

Aren't we a little dramatic? I wasn't asking you or anybody to ignore bad moves Hendry has made or asking you to give them a chance. I said hey lets see what the heck we do this offseason, before we complain how mediocre the team is going to be. Also if you think Hendry is not capable of making good moves, then I don't know what to tell you. But lets at least see what moves we make this offseason before we make these type of judgements or start killing people.

 

Yep, the Cubs are better than their performance of last year. Not to say that they aren't missing out on chances to be even better, but just standing pat would make them strong contenders for a playoff spot.

 

Exactly, Cameron was the top guy I wanted and I'm disappointed we didn't get him. But the Cubs still have a very talented team, and they still can make some good moves to make them better this offseason. Especially with so many guys still on the market. This will probably be a slow moving market with good players still out there in mid to late January. So people need to be patient and not call this a horrible offseason, because we haven't done anything yet in mid December.

Don't you get it?

 

Last year Hendry screwed up by diving into the free agent market early, and missing out on the great bargains available later (Dunn, Abreu, etc.)

 

This year he's screwing up by letting other teams acquire guys for full price before XMas.

 

Duh!

 

yeah, because overpaying for guys early is the same thing as getting a good bargain early.

 

2/15.5 for cameron was an absolute steal

[17 Seconds]

Don't you get it?

 

Last year Hendry screwed up by diving into the free agent market early, and missing out on the great bargains available later (Dunn, Abreu, etc.)

 

This year he's screwing up by letting other teams acquire guys for full price before XMas.

 

Duh!

 

You're right, he's done a damn good job putting together that impressive 587-545 record with one of the top payrolls in the league. Let's just give him some time, fellas. At this point, he really doesn't have any kind of track record or body of work on which to base our criticism.

There's plenty to criticize Hendry for.

 

Folks just come off looking pretty foolish when he does things one way, and then the opposite way, and both times he gets slammed.

 

once again, that's not happening here. you're just confused... yet again. comparing a signing of bradley where he overpaid to a non-signing of cameron where he was had for a great deal is [expletive].

[17 Seconds]

There's plenty to criticize Hendry for.

 

Folks just come off looking pretty foolish when he does things one way, and then the opposite way, and both times he gets slammed.

 

I'm just gonna throw this out there....maybe each year is different. Maybe each year requires a different approach based on the free agent market, the demand for those players, the salaries being bandied about, the perceived quality of the players you currently have under contract, the number of holes you need to fill, and the moves that your division rivals are making.

 

Maybe.

Obviously.

 

Given the totality of circumstances, I'd love to hear the rationale for why moving swiftly was the wrong approach last year, but conversely playing wait-and-see is the wrong approach this year.

 

are you joking? because one contract was bad and one was good. and because there was a huge market for corner outfielders last offseason. the market for center fielders this offseason is small and we're now left to marlon byrd as the top option.

 

are you really going to pretend like you don't understand this?

[SouthSideRyan]

The Cubs always seem to get the second the second tier guys or top tier guys with huge question marks.

 

If you want to count Soriano as a top tier guy (I don't)- he didn't have a defensive position that he could play, still doesn't.

 

 

Soriano had been an above average-great LF up until last season.