ESPN articles on pitch counts

[Clem Fandango]

Good reads if you're bored with nothing to do.

 

Tim Kurkjan's Article

 

In 1988, 18.5 percent of all starts were in the 96-105 pitch range. In 2008, that number jumped to 32 percent. In 2000, there were 454 starts of at least 120 pitches. Last season, there were 71 starts, or 1.5 percent, an 84 percent drop. In 2009, 1.9 percent of starts have been 120 pitches.

 

Crasnick's article

 

"We're teaching it in Class A ball," Sutton said. "We're telling kids we're not going to let them pitch, we're not going to extend them, and we're not going to see what they're capable of. We're encouraging mediocrity and being very successful at it.

 

Schoenfield's Article (includes a piece on Prior and Wood)

 

In 2003, Prior was in his first full season in the majors, was 22 years old (he turned 23 in September) and dominated, with a 2.43 ERA and 10.4 K's per nine innings. While he walked only 50 batters in 211.1 innings, he did throw a lot of pitches -- his 113 per start led the majors (Wood was No. 2). In September, with the Cubs again fighting for the NL Central crown and fighting to win a World Series for the first time in nearly 100 years, here's how Baker used Prior:

 

Sept. 1: 131 pitches, W, 7-0, 8 IP (STL)

Sept. 6: 129 pitches, W, 8-4, 7 IP (MIL)

Sept. 11: 109 pitches, L, 2-3, 5.2 IP (MON)

Sept. 16: 124 pitches, W, 3-2, 8.2 IP (NYM)

Sept. 21: 131 pitches, W, 4-1, 7.2 IP (PIT)

Sept. 27: 133 pitches, W, 4-2, 6.2 IP (PIT)

 

Prior fanned 37 over those final three starts. Most of the games were close, the team's bullpen wasn't great (4.17 season ERA) and the Cubs needed to win every game. What would you have done?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

One, most of those games weren't close.

 

Two, I would have pulled him out of the superexpletive-ing game, just like most of us were screaming for at the time.

[Sammy Sofa]

So you can only not be mediocre by throwing a ton of pitches according to Sutter?

 

Idiot.

[wade]

Some idiot at baseballdailydigest.com has been writing about pitch counts lately. 8-[

 

Here are the links to those-

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/06/30/pitcher-abuse/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/09/pap/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/16/pap-ii/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/27/watching-a-pitchers-workload/

 

The conclusion that's coming in the next few days will find Baker not guilty (if you can believe that) in the past couple of years, but arguing that he didn't run Prior (and Wood and Zambrano) in the ground 6 years ago is a little harder. O.K., a lot harder.

[Derwood]

Some idiot at baseballdailydigest.com has been writing about pitch counts lately. 8-[

 

Here are the links to those-

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/06/30/pitcher-abuse/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/09/pap/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/16/pap-ii/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/27/watching-a-pitchers-workload/

 

The conclusion that's coming in the next few days will find Baker not guilty (if you can believe that) in the past couple of years, but arguing that he didn't run Prior (and Wood and Zambrano) in the ground 6 years ago is a little harder. O.K., a lot harder.

 

Haven't Harang, Volquez and Arroyo been among the league leaders in pitches/start under Dusty's tenure?

[wade]

Some idiot at baseballdailydigest.com has been writing about pitch counts lately. 8-[

 

Here are the links to those-

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/06/30/pitcher-abuse/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/09/pap/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/16/pap-ii/

 

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/07/27/watching-a-pitchers-workload/

 

The conclusion that's coming in the next few days will find Baker not guilty (if you can believe that) in the past couple of years, but arguing that he didn't run Prior (and Wood and Zambrano) in the ground 6 years ago is a little harder. O.K., a lot harder.

 

Haven't Harang, Volquez and Arroyo been among the league leaders in pitches/start under Dusty's tenure?

 

I guess you'll have to see the next article and find out. :D

 

I will say that based on PAP, Harang was in the top 5 'most abused' three straight years before Dusty got there, with Arroyo 6th in back to back years in '06 and '07. Reds pitchers have fared a little better PAP-wise since the 2008 season started, when Baker took over. The difference may not be stark, but Baker is better than Narron in this regard, and seemingly handling his staff differently than he did with the Cubs, when he had at least one pitcher in the top 5 every year.

 

Of course, that doesn't tell the whole story at all. Roy Halladay the past few years has ranked as very abused by PAP, but I wouldn't pick him for falling off a cliff perormance-wise any time soon.

[Guest]

 

Of course, that doesn't tell the whole story at all. Roy Halladay the past few years has ranked as very abused by PAP, but I wouldn't pick him for falling off a cliff perormance-wise any time soon.

It's never a good idea to use exceptions as examples. For every Doc there are dozens of Priors.

 

I kind of like the idea of limiting pitch counts for young pitchers, but I suspect that it's not that pitches per start that is the key. It is the pitches per inning, especially later in the start (e.g., from the 3rd inning on).

[jersey cubs fan]

New age rules suggest a pitcher's arm will fall off his body if his pitch count passes 100.

 

I hate idiots that say this crap. No, people don't suggest your arm will fall off if you throw 100. It's not even close to that. You can't have conversations with these people.

[wade]

 

Of course, that doesn't tell the whole story at all. Roy Halladay the past few years has ranked as very abused by PAP, but I wouldn't pick him for falling off a cliff perormance-wise any time soon.

It's never a good idea to use exceptions as examples. For every Doc there are dozens of Priors.

 

I kind of like the idea of limiting pitch counts for young pitchers, but I suspect that it's not that pitches per start that is the key. It is the pitches per inning, especially later in the start (e.g., from the 3rd inning on).

 

The last article I linked was from a coach that talked specifically about that. Guys may have a decent total pitch count in a game, but a couple of 35 pitch innings sprinkled in amongst relatively easy ones may be harder on guys than spreading it out over the outing.

 

Moderation is the key, I guess.

[wade]

 

Of course, that doesn't tell the whole story at all. Roy Halladay the past few years has ranked as very abused by PAP, but I wouldn't pick him for falling off a cliff perormance-wise any time soon.

It's never a good idea to use exceptions as examples. For every Doc there are dozens of Priors.

 

Plus, I wanted to add that this exception is a knock against PAP- I wasn't using it to prove anything- my opinion of PAP is that it is a viable tool, even though it has some drawbacks and shouldn't be used as the only factor in trying to judge if a guy is overworked.

[wade]

New age rules suggest a pitcher's arm will fall off his body if his pitch count passes 100.

 

I hate idiots that say this crap. No, people don't suggest your arm will fall off if you throw 100. It's not even close to that. You can't have conversations with these people.

 

It reminds me of the consensus among some that it is more 'manly' to swing at bad pitches with men on to try and drive them in instead of taking a walk.

[SouthSideRyan]

Firm pitch counts are necessary becuase managers are dumb and too interested in the short term. You create a hard cap for them, and it's easy enough for them to follow. You tell them that it's a case by case basis based on whether his mechanics are falling down, whether he's visually laboring, what kind of distribution of pitches he's had, and you'll get buffoons like Dusty that tell you the pitcher looked good out there, or he told me he could go one more.

 

None of this is to say there aren't severe flaws with giving the same idiots a # to work with.

[jersey cubs fan]

Firm pitch counts are necessary becuase managers are dumb and too interested in the short term. You create a hard cap for them, and it's easy enough for them to follow. You tell them that it's a case by case basis based on whether his mechanics are falling down, whether he's visually laboring, what kind of distribution of pitches he's had, and you'll get buffoons like Dusty that tell you the pitcher looked good out there, or he told me he could go one more.

 

None of this is to say there aren't severe flaws with giving the same idiots a # to work with.

 

I still remember the supposedly very smart Joe Girardi talking about, I believe Lieber, saying that he noticed he looked hurt out there several pitches, and possibly an entire inning, before he came out of a game hurt. These guys are too concerned with the immediate need to win today's game to be counted on to navigate the nuances of potential signs of injury.

[wade]

Firm pitch counts are necessary becuase managers are dumb and too interested in the short term. You create a hard cap for them, and it's easy enough for them to follow. You tell them that it's a case by case basis based on whether his mechanics are falling down, whether he's visually laboring, what kind of distribution of pitches he's had, and you'll get buffoons like Dusty that tell you the pitcher looked good out there, or he told me he could go one more.

 

None of this is to say there aren't severe flaws with giving the same idiots a # to work with.

 

I still remember the supposedly very smart Joe Girardi talking about, I believe Lieber, saying that he noticed he looked hurt out there several pitches, and possibly an entire inning, before he came out of a game hurt. These guys are too concerned with the immediate need to win today's game to be counted on to navigate the nuances of potential signs of injury.

 

The exact thing the coach I interviewed said coach's had to stay away from- in a losing streak, say, you might really pressure yourself to win today's game and like you said above, that could influence your decision-making negatively in regard to pitcher health.

[wade]

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/08/04/putting-on-the-white-wig/

 

This is my lukewarm conclusion to the series on pitch counts referenced above.