Greene to Cards close

[Transmogrified Tiger]

who did the cardinals even have at SS last year? khalil might have only cost them a win or two with his sub-600 ops

 

This is why it's a good move for them, they don't have anything to lose. They're giving up a fungible asset and they have nothing to live up to from last year.

 

On the other hand, the "this is why the Cards win championships" stuff is really overblown. You can make the argument that Greene isn't great defensively(or at the very least not consistently good), and it's a very easy argument that he's a gamble to be an asset with the bat. It could pay off in both aspects, one, or backfire in both and they get no improvement at all. It's a risk worth taking with their current SS situation and what they had to give up for him, but make no mistake it's a gamble nonetheless.

[CUBZ99]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

 

No need to argue stats. Cards made move = better move than Cubs.

 

It doesn't even matter who they traded.

[Mephistopheles]

who did the cardinals even have at SS last year? khalil might have only cost them a win or two with his sub-600 ops

 

The Cards had a bum that only put up a .690(ish) Ops. Now they got a guy that put up a .599 for almost 3X the cost. Good move.

 

You're completely lost here. What they got doesn't matter. What Greene did doesn't matter.

 

This is why it has always been pointless to argue with you. The magic Mepho dust says that a .599 OPS at $6.5MM is a good bargain for unknown players. Now you can see why most people don't take you seriously, or even bother to reply to your posts.

 

I am pretty sure that whenever I talk baseball, everyone here takes me seriously. They may not agree with what I am saying, but they certainly take whatever my point is seriously. The "magic Mepho dust" does not say that a .599 OPS at $6.5M is a good bargain. What I said is that what they got out of shortstop in 2008 and what Greene did does not matter.

 

What exactly is it about Greene that you think he can have such a turn around? He has never hit for a high average, OBP, OPS, SLG and he K's a ton. Is it just the fact the Cardinals got him and they seem to have a knack for turning mediocre, at best, players into studs?

 

I understand you're new around here. Read this for my thoughts on Khalil Greene. It's a year old, but hey it doesn't really change much despite the struggles of Greene last season.

[NonProfitCow]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

[UMFan83]

I'm really going to enjoy seeing how Greene does this year. This might completely validate Meph's theories, or it might ruin them forever.

[cubsfan26]

I have only been posting here for a few months, but are Meph predictions ever right? I just remember reading him getting bashed alot for being wrong, but I could be mistaken. As for this trade, It's pretty meaningless to me. Greene might be better, but he's not a star in the waiting. I don't see Greene moving from Petco to Busch making a big enough difference to change him from a 740s OPS guy to a 800 plus OPS guy, but thats just my opinion. I think we can all agree that if Greene hits like he did last year, it won't matter what ballpark he plays in. Edited December 4, 2008 by cubsfan26

[CUBZ99]

who did the cardinals even have at SS last year? khalil might have only cost them a win or two with his sub-600 ops

 

This is why it's a good move for them, they don't have anything to lose. They're giving up a fungible asset and they have nothing to live up to from last year.

 

On the other hand, the "this is why the Cards win championships" stuff is really overblown. You can make the argument that Greene isn't great defensively(or at the very least not consistently good), and it's a very easy argument that he's a gamble to be an asset with the bat. It could pay off in both aspects, one, or backfire in both and they get no improvement at all. It's a risk worth taking with their current SS situation and what they had to give up for him, but make no mistake it's a gamble nonetheless.

 

TT the problem is that even if the trade did happen, what did the Cards trade to get Greene? The Pads were asking for Olson from the O's at the trade deadline last year. The story doesn't name who the players are. Without knowing who was traded how can any person say that it was a "good move" for them? Maybe after we know who was actually involved in the trade we can make an assessment of the trade, but until we know the players it is a little premature.

 

It would be equivalent to saying the Cubs traded to the Marlins for Gregg and only had to give up 1 relief prospect. Kinda relevant who that relief prospect is, isn't it?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

Before this year, Greene.

 

Now, Theriot.

[imb]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

ryan theriot for like 500k or khalil greene for $6.5mil? Uhhh, neither?

 

i would be really upset if we were going into 2009 with khalil greene pegged as our starting short stop. im not enthused about having theriot there with no back up plan, but at least if it crashes and burns it doesn't cost us almost 7 million dollars.

[OleMissCub]

Of the 71 players that BP lists as playing SS last year, Greene is 61st with a whopping -7.1 (yes, negative) VORP. Our li'l bitty gritty Riot was 10th out of 71 with a 27.9 rating.

[Mephistopheles]

I have only been posting here for a few months, but are Meph predictions ever right? I just remember reading him getting bashed alot for being wrong, but I could be mistaken. As for this trade, It's pretty meaningless to me. Greene might be better, but he's not a star in the waiting. I don't see the Petco to Busch make a big enough difference to change him from a 740s OPS guy to a 800 plus OPS guy, but thats just my opinion. I think we can all agree that if Greene hits like he did last year, it won't matter what ballpark he plays in.

 

I dunno, I called like every pick in the draft in 2007. I also shadowed a few of the drafts. Right now we'd have Travis Snider, Jason Heyward, Michael Burgess, and Isaac Galloway if it were up to me.

[NonProfitCow]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

Before this year, Greene.

 

Now, Theriot.

Really? One year sways your opinion that much?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

who did the cardinals even have at SS last year? khalil might have only cost them a win or two with his sub-600 ops

 

This is why it's a good move for them, they don't have anything to lose. They're giving up a fungible asset and they have nothing to live up to from last year.

 

On the other hand, the "this is why the Cards win championships" stuff is really overblown. You can make the argument that Greene isn't great defensively(or at the very least not consistently good), and it's a very easy argument that he's a gamble to be an asset with the bat. It could pay off in both aspects, one, or backfire in both and they get no improvement at all. It's a risk worth taking with their current SS situation and what they had to give up for him, but make no mistake it's a gamble nonetheless.

 

TT the problem is that even if the trade did happen, what did the Cards trade to get Greene? The Pads were asking for Olson from the O's at the trade deadline last year. The story doesn't name who the players are. Without knowing who was traded how can any person say that it was a "good move" for them? Maybe after we know who was actually involved in the trade we can make an assessment of the trade, but until we know the players it is a little premature.

 

It would be equivalent to saying the Cubs traded to the Marlins for Gregg and only had to give up 1 relief prospect. Kinda relevant who that relief prospect is, isn't it?

 

To an extent it matters, but as long as it's not the best of the best the Cards have offer in that department(like Perez + McClellan) it doesn't really matter. They'll be giving up something(unproven relief arms without big-time upside) that is not hard to find to take a chance on something that is very hard to find(a strong hitting SS that is anywhere from average to very good with the glove). Furthermore, that SS is going to impact the team much more than that relief prospect(s) will, especially when considering it's likely what the Cards gave up weren't going to spend much time in the MLB pen this year.

[CUBZ99]

I have only been posting here for a few months, but are Meph predictions ever right? I just remember reading him getting bashed alot for being wrong, but I could be mistaken. As for this trade, It's pretty meaningless to me. Greene might be better, but he's not a star in the waiting. I don't see Greene moving from Petco to Busch making a big enough difference to change him from a 740s OPS guy to a 800 plus OPS guy, but thats just my opinion. I think we can all agree that if Greene hits like he did last year, it won't matter what ballpark he plays in.

 

He is from the school of "if you say it bold or loud enough" some people will just believe it.

[imb]

oh man jr towles to the cardinals now let's just give up see you guys in 2010

[Mephistopheles]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

ryan theriot for like 500k or khalil greene for $6.5mil? Uhhh, neither?

 

i would be really upset if we were going into 2009 with khalil greene pegged as our starting short stop. im not enthused about having theriot there with no back up plan, but at least if it crashes and burns it doesn't cost us almost 7 million dollars.

 

the way things are going with the market right now it seems as if we either spend those 7 mil or we dont. in other words sure it costs 7 mil, but it's just some fat cats money. if we didnt get greene, im not so sure we're spending those 7 mil elsewhere.

 

that being said im probably taking the cubs budget as softer than it really is. I'd rather gamble on greene with 7 mil than dempster with 13 or w/e he makes next year (and the next four years) - easy. its not that we dont gamble, we do, we just like to gamble with high risk, low payouts.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Mephistopheles

[imb]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

ryan theriot for like 500k or khalil greene for $6.5mil? Uhhh, neither?

 

i would be really upset if we were going into 2009 with khalil greene pegged as our starting short stop. im not enthused about having theriot there with no back up plan, but at least if it crashes and burns it doesn't cost us almost 7 million dollars.

 

the way things are going with the market right now it seems as if we either spend those 7 mil or we dont. in other words sure it costs 7 mil, but it's just some fat cats money. if we didnt get greene, im not so sure we're spending those 7 mil elsewhere.

 

i would love to blow our trade-deadline cash for someone that can't even outhit ryan "singles" theriot

[Transmogrified Tiger]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

Before this year, Greene.

 

Now, Theriot.

Really? One year sways your opinion that much?

 

It's a combination of Greene (emphatically) whiffing on opportunities for the breakout he could have(surprisingly, he's 2 months older than Theriot), and Theriot setting a standard for his play(above average OBP, no slugging, steady if only average at best defense because of range/arm limitations).

[NonProfitCow]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

ryan theriot for like 500k or khalil greene for $6.5mil? Uhhh, neither?

 

i would be really upset if we were going into 2009 with khalil greene pegged as our starting short stop. im not enthused about having theriot there with no back up plan, but at least if it crashes and burns it doesn't cost us almost 7 million dollars.

 

the way things are going with the market right now it seems as if we either spend those 7 mil or we dont. in other words sure it costs 7 mil, but it's just some fat cats money. if we didnt get greene, im not so sure we're spending those 7 mil elsewhere.

 

i would love to blow our trade-deadline cash for someone that can't even outhit ryan "singles" theriot

The only year Greene failed to outhit Theriot was last year. So Theriot is a better hitter?

[OleMissCub]

-7.1 VORP, 1.5 WARP3. At least his OPS+ wasn't in the negatives...

[Mephistopheles]

IMB!'s just jerking our chain. He'd rather have Greene than Theriot by a large margin if Greene didn't cost 6.5m more.

[Mephistopheles]

-7.1 VORP, 1.5 WARP3. At least his OPS+ wasn't in the negatives...

 

Keep trying to console yourself. It's not going to change the fact that he's probably going to be the best shortstop in the division immediately, if not the entire league.

[imb]

his slugging percentage was lower than ryan theriot's, sure here's $6 million

Be honest. Taking park factors, defense and careers into account, who would you rather have?

 

ryan theriot for like 500k or khalil greene for $6.5mil? Uhhh, neither?

 

i would be really upset if we were going into 2009 with khalil greene pegged as our starting short stop. im not enthused about having theriot there with no back up plan, but at least if it crashes and burns it doesn't cost us almost 7 million dollars.

 

the way things are going with the market right now it seems as if we either spend those 7 mil or we dont. in other words sure it costs 7 mil, but it's just some fat cats money. if we didnt get greene, im not so sure we're spending those 7 mil elsewhere.

 

i would love to blow our trade-deadline cash for someone that can't even outhit ryan "singles" theriot

The only year Greene failed to outhit Theriot was last year. So Theriot is a better hitter?

 

no, he's a pretty safe bet to hit worse than greene next year, but is he going to be $6 million worse? i'm going to go ahead and doubt that.

[imb]

-7.1 VORP, 1.5 WARP3. At least his OPS+ wasn't in the negatives...

 

Keep trying to console yourself. It's not going to change the fact that he's probably going to be the best shortstop in the division immediately, if not the entire league.

 

now truffle's gonna get all jack wilson on us

[OleMissCub]

I'm increasingly convinced this Greene infatuation by Meph is some clever farce much like MurtonFan's stated belief that Nickelback is better than The Beatles.