what now,

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm not throwing him under the bus..I'm just stating fact..when was the last time you saw Z get out of a jam that included poor defensive plays??

 

In game two, it was Z that gave up the run scoring double to Martin. I realize the guys on base were as the result of poor defense.. but again..a pitcher has to prevent the snowball from turning into an avalanche..he didn't do it in game two and has rarely, if ever, shown the ability TO do it.

 

I've probably researched and made this post just about every year, and I'm not going to bother now being at work. Regardless, the point is Zambrano doesn't allow any more unearned runs than the average pitcher does. Something you'd expect from somebody who melts down at the first sight of an error.

[David]

Damnit, Z. I don't care how many errors they make behind you, you'd better not give up a hit at any point.

[jersey cubs fan]

Do you think you can get enough on the trade market though for DeRosa to compensate for a year at his 2007 levels (I doubt he can hit at his 2008 levels again) and then a potential 2 draft picks when he leaves? I'm not sure his trade value is high enough to make up for both of those which would make me lean towards keeping him and hoping to pocket the picks after the year. I agree with you that signing him to an extension is the worst option of the 3.

 

I don't know, but part of the motivation would be to save $5.5m toward improvements elsewhere. I feel like Fontenot and Theriot/Cedeno could come close to duplicating what DeRosa is likely to bring. However, if the market is practically nil, then maybe you just hang onto him.

 

 

As for Theriot, I agree with the overall point but disagree with some of the finer points. It's probably semantics..but he hits plenty of hard hit balls. It's not like he's trying to find holes with weakly hit balls most of the time. He hit more no doubt line drive singles than probably any other hitter in the league this year. The question becomes if somebody can keep up a line drive rate like that with his swing pattern. I'm not sure if he can, and even if he does his upside is so limited because his swing prevents him from getting a lot of extra base hits. I think the next couple years will have him bouncing between a .690 and .750 OPS before he declines and fades right out of the league. A medium priority to upgrade that would be higher if there were more options available.

 

I've seen balls classified as "line drive" that are hardly hard hit balls. The Jeter bloop to right center and right was Theriot's specialty, and he had 13 XBH, he did not hit the ball hard. He's physically incapable.

[David]

I'm not throwing him under the bus..I'm just stating fact..when was the last time you saw Z get out of a jam that included poor defensive plays??

 

In game two, it was Z that gave up the run scoring double to Martin. I realize the guys on base were as the result of poor defense.. but again..a pitcher has to prevent the snowball from turning into an avalanche..he didn't do it in game two and has rarely, if ever, shown the ability TO do it.

 

I've probably researched and made this post just about every year, and I'm not going to bother now being at work. Regardless, the point is Zambrano doesn't allow any more unearned runs than the average pitcher does. Something you'd expect from somebody who melts down at the first sight of an error.

 

BS. He obviously does because he gets really pissed off and getting pissed off obviously = giving up runs or something.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not throwing him under the bus..I'm just stating fact..when was the last time you saw Z get out of a jam that included poor defensive plays??

 

In game two, it was Z that gave up the run scoring double to Martin. I realize the guys on base were as the result of poor defense.. but again..a pitcher has to prevent the snowball from turning into an avalanche..he didn't do it in game two and has rarely, if ever, shown the ability TO do it.

 

Ab-freaking-surd.

 

He got 3 DB ground balls. This wasn't a case of the defense giving the offense one extra out and Zambrano falling apart. He gave up one hit after 3 misplayed ground balls. There isn't a pitcher in baseball that will successfully get out of an inning unscathed when the defense failed to pick up 5-6 potential outs.

[jaxxradio]

David..it's called picking your team up..he doesn't do it..having said that, I wouldn't trade him unless I got good value in return. I'd deal him for Peavy without blinking twice..as well as Hamels, Billingsley, Beckett and Webb.

[David]

David..it's called picking your team up..he doesn't do it..having said that, I wouldn't trade him unless I got good value in return. I'd deal him for Peavy without blinking twice..as well as Hamels, Billingsley, Beckett and Webb.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

[David]

THEY MADE THREE FREAKING ERRORS... ALL WERE BALLS THAT SHOULD HAVE LIMITED OR ENDED THE DODGERS SCORING CHANCES

 

AM I REALLY HAVING THIS RIDICULOUS ARGUMENT?

[SouthSideRyan]

David..it's called picking your team up..he doesn't do it..having said that, I wouldn't trade him unless I got good value in return. I'd deal him for Peavy without blinking twice..as well as Hamels, Billingsley, Beckett and Webb.

 

So you'd trade him for one of the best pitchers in baseball? That's just common sense. None of those trades are happening because those pitchers are better than Zambrano. And not because they keep their composure.

[jaxxradio]

A pitcher is supposed to be able to keep his cool and get out of trouble when his infield or outfield has screwed up. Now I will admit that Zambrano had horrible defense behind him in game two, but he had an opportunity to get out of trouble and couldn't do it because he let his emotions get the best of him.

 

Z's emotions have always gotten the better of him when things don't go as planned in the field, and as a result the inning gets longer and more runs score.

[SouthSideRyan]

So who do you think allowed more unearned runs this year.

 

Zambrano or Webb?

 

Zambrano or Peavy?

 

Zambrano or Hamels?

 

Zambrano or Billingsley?

[jersey cubs fan]

A pitcher is supposed to be able to keep his cool and get out of trouble when his infield or outfield has screwed up. Now I will admit that Zambrano had horrible defense behind him in game two, but he had an opportunity to get out of trouble and couldn't do it because he let his emotions get the best of him.

 

Z's emotions have always gotten the better of him when things don't go as planned in the field, and as a result the inning gets longer and more runs score.

 

This is so incredibly stupid.

 

He did get out of it. 3 freaking times. How do you get out of such a jam? You strike people out and/or get ground balls. That is exactly what he did, and his defense screwed up.

[jaxxradio]

South Side.. I am not talking about just unearned runs.. this isn't a black and white issue. I am talking about prolonging an inning because of emotion. Z does that more than any other pitcher in the game.

 

Unearned runs are the result of poor defense. The Cubs played pretty solid defense this season, so Z probably didn't give up a ton of unearned runs.. but I will guarantee you that he prolonged a number of innings when the defense made an error.. because he can't forget about the mistake and concentrate on getting the next batter out.

[wekse]

quit arguing with him...maybe he'll take his awful argument and go away.

[David]

A pitcher is supposed to be able to keep his cool and get out of trouble when his infield or outfield has screwed up. Now I will admit that Zambrano had horrible defense behind him in game two, but he had an opportunity to get out of trouble and couldn't do it because he let his emotions get the best of him.

 

Z's emotions have always gotten the better of him when things don't go as planned in the field, and as a result the inning gets longer and more runs score.

 

This is so incredibly stupid.

 

He did get out of it. 3 freaking times. How do you get out of such a jam? You strike people out and/or get ground balls. That is exactly what he did, and his defense screwed up.

 

 

My favorite is how the reason Martin got a hit there after the 3 errors is because Z's emotions got the best of him. Not because Russell Martin is a pretty good hitters and because pitchers give up hits sometimes. Because his emotions got the best of him. If they didn't, he'd get everyone out every time.

Edited October 6, 2008 by David

[David]

Forget it, if we can trade him for Peavy, Billingsley, Webb or some other great pitcher, we should do it.

 

Great point made.

[jaxxradio]

David.. I'm not saying he would "retire" everybody if he didn't show emotion.. I'm just saying that Zambrano needs to be better poised on the mound when things don't go his way.

[C.C.]

David.. I'm not saying he would "retire" everybody if he didn't show emotion.. I'm just saying that Zambrano needs to be better poised on the mound when things don't go his way.

 

That had nothing to do with what happened on Thursday.

[David]

David.. I'm not saying he would "retire" everybody if he didn't show emotion.. I'm just saying that Zambrano needs to be better poised on the mound when things don't go his way.

 

I don't know what point you're trying to make because it makes no sense.

 

He literally did his part to get out of it 2-3 times but his defense didn't do their job.

[SouthSideRyan]

South Side.. I am not talking about just unearned runs.. this isn't a black and white issue. I am talking about prolonging an inning because of emotion. Z does that more than any other pitcher in the game.

 

Unearned runs are the result of poor defense. The Cubs played pretty solid defense this season, so Z probably didn't give up a ton of unearned runs.. but I will guarantee you that he prolonged a number of innings when the defense made an error.. because he can't forget about the mistake and concentrate on getting the next batter out.

 

Being a broadcaster, you realize that unearned runs don't only happen on plays when errors are made. Every 2 out run that scores after an error(or 1 out+ run that scores after 2 errors, etc.) counts as an unearned run. If Z had these meltdowns you mention where all he has to do is get the next batter and he doesn't, then he'd be giving up unearned runs in these situations. He clearly is not. He gave up 3 all season. 5 last year. He hasn't given up a more than usual amount of unearned runs since '03, his first full season.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If Z wasn't poised out there, what would it look like if he was? The worst thing he did during that sequence of errors was smile and stick out his tongue, and maybe hop with excitement as the first one was being fielded(loose usage of the term). Then he went back to striking guys out and getting ground balls.

[fromthestretch]

David.. I'm not saying he would "retire" everybody if he didn't show emotion.. I'm just saying that Zambrano needs to be better poised on the mound when things don't go his way.

 

That had nothing to do with what happened on Thursday.

 

Bingo.

 

I'll agree that Zambrano lets his emotions get the best of him at times, but he should have been out of that inning three times and the defense let him down. Three times he did his job and the guys behind him didn't. In one inning. All things considered, he handled that inning much better than a lot of pitchers would have.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Ted Lilly would have killed somebody

[CubColtPacer]

A pitcher is supposed to be able to keep his cool and get out of trouble when his infield or outfield has screwed up. Now I will admit that Zambrano had horrible defense behind him in game two, but he had an opportunity to get out of trouble and couldn't do it because he let his emotions get the best of him.

 

Z's emotions have always gotten the better of him when things don't go as planned in the field, and as a result the inning gets longer and more runs score.

 

I've got a quick question.

 

Your premise is that when the defense makes an error, Zambrano lets the emotion get the best of him and prolongs an inning. You're then using the double by Martin as evidence of that premise.

 

My question is..what about the at-bats by Kemp, DeWitt, Blake, and Billingsley? There was already a poor play defensively in the inning before any of those 4 players stepped to the plate. If Z had let the emotions get the best of him after that poor play, wouldn't he have thrown bad pitches and not gotten these 4 out? That didn't happen though. Z continued to make good pitches.

 

So why did Z suddenly blow up emotionally against Martin, but not against these previous batters? What about the situation changed?

 

And to recap the inning. Before the Martin double, Z struck out 2 batters in the inning. He also had 3 ground balls right to where his infielders were playing..including 2 that could have easily been double plays. His defense recorded exactly 0 outs in that inning.

 

And I can point to other times where the defense struggled and Z fought through it. One was when these Dodgers were in town and Z had to throw 130 pitches because his defense failed him twice in a row in the 8th inning. Zambrano battled back and got the next hitter to end the inning and keep the game close. That's just one example to show good faith.

[Guest]

How was Z not keeping his cool? He sure looked calm out there.

 

I want to see how well Hamels or Peavy or Billingsley or Webb would do if they had to get 8 outs an inning.