Hall of Fame & Steroids/PEDs

[Derwood]

In 1991, the comish declared all illegal/controlled drugs against the rules. He specifically mentioned steroids and all controlled substances (HGH being something covered by this)

 

Interesting. I had no idea Vincent did that. Why did Selig seemingly have to start from scratch? Something about Vincent's notice/memo must have been solid enough, otherwise Selig could have just used it as precedent.

 

Does anyone have an asnwer for this? I'm not tryin to pick a fight...it really doesn't make any sense to me why Vincent's memo wouldn't hae been used as some kind of precedent.

 

wasn't the disconnect that while the league said PED's were against the rules, the MLBPA wouldn't budge on testing for it, basically making the rule unenforceable?

 

So does that mean Vincent's memo was basically moot and meaningless?

 

i'm sure it was well-intentioned. i don't know the history of the commissionership (word?) well enough to know who let the union have so much power

 

I'm really curious about this now since it seems like such a action would have meant a lot more over the last 10 years, but this is the first I've heard of it.

 

a quick perusal of Vincent's wikipedia page doesn't shed any light on the PED thing, but boy, the owners sure hated that guy. and oh look, it was Selig, Pohlad and Reinsdorf who led the charge to get him booted as commissioner.

[Clem Fandango]

Also, they were against the law

 

OK, then nobody who has ever broken the law can get into the HOF.

 

Whoops.

 

In your face, Tony LaRussa

[Jehrico]

One big problem with the steroids/breaking the law/cheating and the Hall argument is definition. What exactly constitutes a steroid? HGH isn't steroids. So do you call anything that has any kind of chemical impact? What about ephedra use in the 90s? McGwire was caught red handed with Andro, which wasn't illegal at the time. If you put a blanket statement against anything that can be injected or injested that enhances performance to catch all of that, then crap, anyone who ever drank a red bull should be kept out. Where exactly do you draw that hard line? The still-unregulated supplement market has really created a huge blurred line that's hard to define.

 

I'm curious to see what happens with Sammy. You could say there was no evidence he ever cheated on one hand, but then the haters could come back with the broken bat. That never kept Perry or Niekro out of the HOF though. There's going to be some double standards applied over the next 5-10 years.

[Sammy Sofa]

One big problem with the steroids/breaking the law/cheating and the Hall argument is definition. What exactly constitutes a steroid? HGH isn't steroids. So do you call anything that has any kind of chemical impact? What about ephedra use in the 90s? McGwire was caught red handed with Andro, which wasn't illegal at the time. If you put a blanket statement against anything that can be injected or injested that enhances performance to catch all of that, then crap, anyone who ever drank a red bull should be kept out. Where exactly do you draw that hard line? The still-unregulated supplement market has really created a huge blurred line that's hard to define.

 

Exactly. The more you look at it, the more the Vincent memo looks meaningless.

[haltz]

Cocaine was seen as a bigger issue and there was no steroid hysteria yet. Vincent himself said they didn't really think about it. Steroids (and prescription drugs) are mentioned in passing here for clarity I think (and apparently Faye also said it was mentioned because of rumors surrounding Jose Canseco). It's basically just some sort of policy reiteration, and of course there's the union issue with testing. I don't know, here's the memo.

 

EDIT: OK, here's the timeline:

 

1991: Faye memo

1997: Selig reissues the memo

2001, 2002: same thing

2002: new CBA implements steroid testing

 

And also he made sure there was a drug policy and testing for non-player personnel.

[wade]

prescription drugs, '...including steroids for which one does not have a prescription.'

 

A good number of steroid and HGH users get their stuff thru prescriptions from doctors who are 'doing them a favor'. Pettite would have had an out when the first memo came around. :D

[CubinNY]

No offense to Bruce Miles, but the BWAA sometimes behave like middle school girls. They see themselves as the gatekeepers, but they sometimes act like jilted lovers. I think they send a message to all the sluggers who put up good enough numbers for consideration and not vote them in for awhile. They should probably do the same thing to all the pitchers too, but they won't.

 

I think it would be fitting to wait and put all of the steroid era players in at one time and have a special section of the Hall for them. If Smoltz, Glavin, and Maddux retire this year that will pretty much be everyone from that era.

 

Bonds

Sammy

Mac

Palmerio

Clemens

Glavin

Piazza

Maddux

Smoltz

---------

 

It sucks that everybody gets tarred with the same brush but I believe they all knew what was going on, so many are accessories. The only other person I can think of who is worthy from that era is Jeff Kent, but I'm sure I'm missing some (Jr. Griffee and Visquel). People like A-Rod and Jeter kind of fall in the middle and will have to play significant time outside of that era.

[bukie]

No offense to Bruce Miles, but the BWAA sometimes behave like middle school girls. They see themselves as the gatekeepers, but they sometimes act like jilted lovers. I think they send a message to all the sluggers who put up good enough numbers for consideration and not vote them in for awhile. They should probably do the same thing to all the pitchers too, but they won't.

 

I think it would be fitting to wait and put all of the steroid era players in at one time and have a special section of the Hall for them. If Smoltz, Glavin, and Maddux retire this year that will pretty much be everyone from that era.

 

Bonds

Sammy

Mac

Palmerio

Clemens

Glavin

Piazza

Maddux

Smoltz

---------

 

It sucks that everybody gets tarred with the same brush but I believe they all knew what was going on, so many are accessories. The only other person I can think of who is worthy from that era is Jeff Kent, but I'm sure I'm missing some (Jr. Griffee and Visquel). People like A-Rod and Jeter kind of fall in the middle and will have to play significant time outside of that era.

 

Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Trevor Hoffman, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling probably also fall into "that era" of people worthy of being in the HOF.

[CubinNY]

No offense to Bruce Miles, but the BWAA sometimes behave like middle school girls. They see themselves as the gatekeepers, but they sometimes act like jilted lovers. I think they send a message to all the sluggers who put up good enough numbers for consideration and not vote them in for awhile. They should probably do the same thing to all the pitchers too, but they won't.

 

I think it would be fitting to wait and put all of the steroid era players in at one time and have a special section of the Hall for them. If Smoltz, Glavin, and Maddux retire this year that will pretty much be everyone from that era.

 

Bonds

Sammy

Mac

Palmerio

Clemens

Glavin

Piazza

Maddux

Smoltz

---------

 

It sucks that everybody gets tarred with the same brush but I believe they all knew what was going on, so many are accessories. The only other person I can think of who is worthy from that era is Jeff Kent, but I'm sure I'm missing some (Jr. Griffee and Visquel). People like A-Rod and Jeter kind of fall in the middle and will have to play significant time outside of that era.

 

Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Trevor Hoffman, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling probably also fall into "that era" of people worthy of being in the HOF.

Curt Schilling should only get into the HOF if he buys a ticket. The rest of them, yes.

[Vanilla Ice]

bloody sock

[Ski]

bloody sock

I hope you're not implying that he should get in simply because he pitched well in a dramatic postseason game.

[Jehrico]

bloody sock

I hope you're not implying that he should get in simply because he pitched well in a dramatic postseason game.

No, but I think he's implying that said game will hold far more weight with the people who get a vote than it should.

[Vanilla Ice]

bloody sock

I hope you're not implying that he should get in simply because he pitched well in a dramatic postseason game.

No, but I think he's implying that said game will hold far more weight with the people who get a vote than it should.

bingo

[TruffleShuffle]

bloody sock

I hope you're not implying that he should get in simply because he pitched well in a dramatic postseason game.

No, but I think he's implying that said game will hold far more weight with the people who get a vote than it should.

 

he might deserve to be in anyway. top 10 in ERA+ 10 times, top 6 in whip 11 times, top 5 in strikeouts 8 times. plus that 10-2, 2.23 ERA in the playoffs (with 3 rings) doesn't hurt.

 

he's more or less the definition of a borderline candidate. you may think that he will get extra credit for the bloody sock, but i think that some in the media will not vote for him simply because he's a loudmouth who says some controversial things.