fewest games not getting on base?

[wrigley23]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

[Vanilla Ice]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

not even going to touch this because its going nowhere

 

but just curious

were you the sliding into first guy?

[CubColtPacer]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

not even going to touch this because its going nowhere

 

but just curious

were you the sliding into first guy?

 

No, he was not.

 

There's a huge difference between the Cubs lineup as perceived in March and now though. The lineup in March had two perceived black holes (Theriot/Pie) and a lack of a true 5 hitter. While I admittedly did not support Soriano as a #5 even then (mostly due to his splits), there was a potential need in the middle of the order.

 

Now, there is no such need. The Cubs have plenty of middle of the order hitters. Lee, Ramirez, Soto, Edmonds is perfectly fine as a 3,4,5,6.

 

So you've filled the middle. Now you have 4 players left. Soriano, Fukudome, DeRosa, and Theriot. The least productive player should go in the 8 spot. As well as he's played this year, that's Theriot.

 

Soriano is your most productive player left. So you wouldn't want to put him down all the way at #7. Add to that his splits, and it makes much more sense to put him at #1 than #2. Plus, if Fukudome was in the #1 spot, that would mean managers would put in tough left-handers late in the game to handle the 9 and 1 spot, knowing the Cubs don't have much good right-handed hitting on the bench. Soriano in the 1 spot makes it harder for them to put in a left-hander to counter Ward pinch-hitting. Plus, it gives the better player in Soriano a few more at-bats over the course of a season.

 

Then, Fukudome or DeRosa could go #2 or #7. They're very similar players, so it doesn't really matter which one you put in which place.

 

There really are far more benefits keeping Soriano at #1 getting your most productive players the most at-bats, lineup balance, and the benefit of keeping Soriano comfortable where he's shown to be productive.

[nilodnayr]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

 

Just because its a question about baseball, doesn't mean that a scout should be the authority on the correct answer.

 

Just because your sell computers for CDW, doesn't mean you know how to run a company.

[BigbadB]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

 

Just because its a question about baseball, doesn't mean that a scout should be the authority on the correct answer.

 

Just because your sell computers for CDW, doesn't mean you know how to run a company.

 

Agreed. Scouts aren't paid to determine where a player best fits into a line up card. Separating scouts for a minute with major league managers, I don't think the "good ole boy" network always makes the best decisions on line ups, either.

 

My comments aren't meant to bastardize Theriot. I will give credit where it is due. He's having a great year at the plate and I'm happy to say so. My comments are fact based (right out of the Cub stat books). If you want to score the most amount of runs possible, Theriot just isn't the guy to look at to start off a game. If the Cubs didn't have Lee, Ramirez, Soto, Fukudome and Edmonds in the heart of the order, then I might lean your way and go with Theriot at the top of the line up with Soriano hitting 3rd. Soriano is a difference maker at the top of the order.

 

How much do I like having a difference maker batting first? A whole heck of a lot. I like Jimmy Rollins batting first. I like Curtis Granderson batting first. Neither of these guys are OBP studs, but when they bat first, they make poop happen.

 

If we didn't have Soriano and it was 2005 again and Dusty was our manager, I'd be screaming for Theriot to bat at the top of the order. OBP is no longer a problem with this team, however, as there is a great balance of OBP all the way through the line up. With that said, look very closely at Soriano's production at the top of the line up and show me how many other lead off guys are more productive than him over the course of a season. The answer. Not many.

 

I know we went around with this discussion back when Roberts was a potential add-on, but if they did land Roberts, I'd still have Soriano leading off and Roberts hitting 2nd.

 

One of my favorite things about Soriano leading off is when the bottom of the order gets a few runners on, you don't have to hope that the line up gets all the way to Lee for something to happen. Soriano can make it happen a few spots ahead of Lee. And when I say "something to happen", I'm referring to XBH's.

[David]

david & big...i appreciate the discussion. That is refreshing opposed to some of the rest which are no more than personal attacks/digs. This all started when I went to spring training & spoke to several scouts from different teams. I coach baseball so I'm always interested in seeking out info beyond that of a casual fan. I hated Soriano at the top last year & asked their opinions on the Cubs in general. This was right around the BRob to Chicago furor & nearly to a man...each brought up the whole waste of a leadoff hitter in Soriano. I just find it funny that major league scouts whose job it is to follow baseball collectively are wrong & a handful of message board posters have it right.

 

 

Yet, at the same time, you think Lou has it wrong and you have it right.

 

 

It's funny, because before, when you insisted that Lou wanted Sori out of the leadoff spot, you used the same argument you're using now, but that time it was Lou & Hendry vs. a bunch of message board posters.

[Derwood]

scouts who believe that lead-off is a position aren't good scouts

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

I'm going to side with wrigley23, to balance the debate out.

[Derwood]

I'm going to side with wrigley23, to balance the debate out.

 

that would make it 2 against roughly 417. not quite balanced yet

[BigbadB]

I'm going to side with wrigley23, to balance the debate out.

 

Got any data to back up your claim?

[CubbieBum]

I'm going to side with wrigley23, to balance the debate out.

 

Got any data to back up your claim?

 

He heard through a friend that a couple of scouts think Soriano as a leadoff hitter isn't good.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Not really regarding Soriano @ leadoff..but isn't a goal to get your best hitters the most PA's? Therefore isn't it possible to "sabotage" a lineup by putting your best hitters further down in the order?

[Amazing_Grace]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Theriot started hitting horribly everytime he's been moved into the leadoff spot. This was tried a few times last year and it didn't work. It didn't work when it was tried earlier this year. Theriot has been a very pleasant surprise and is giving great production considering what he's being paid and the position he plays. Still, there's no way I'd move Soriano out of the spot where he feels most comfortable in order to put Theriot at leadoff. His numbers don't justify getting more ABs than anyone else on the team. I would do Soriano/Fukudome in either order one and two, but I'd lean towards putting Soriano at leadoff because he's always hit better there.

 

I like Theriot as an 8 hitter. He's smart enough and patient enough to do well with the pitcher hitting behind him. Free swingers will get themselves out a lot in the 8 hole swinging at bad pitches. Also, his speed makes it a lot easier for him to be bunted over, and the SB is probably more useful here than anywhere else in the lineup.

[MasterBlaster]

IMO, leadoff isn't really an important thing to discuss, unless you think overwhelmingly that the 1st inning is the quintessential climax of the game. Otherwise, I'm happy to know that my 900 ops guy is getting more at bats than everyone else.

 

For something equally unimportant, we can discuss the merits of number designations for SP. Is Pitcher X a 1? How about a 2, 3 or 4? That's so important to know.

[David]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Theriot started hitting horribly everytime he's been moved into the leadoff spot. This was tried a few times last year and it didn't work. It didn't work when it was tried earlier this year. Theriot has been a very pleasant surprise and is giving great production considering what he's being paid and the position he plays. Still, there's no way I'd move Soriano out of the spot where he feels most comfortable in order to put Theriot at leadoff. His numbers don't justify getting more ABs than anyone else on the team. I would do Soriano/Fukudome in either order one and two, but I'd lean towards putting Soriano at leadoff because he's always hit better there.

 

I like Theriot as an 8 hitter. He's smart enough and patient enough to do well with the pitcher hitting behind him. Free swingers will get themselves out a lot in the 8 hole swinging at bad pitches. Also, his speed makes it a lot easier for him to be bunted over, and the SB is probably more useful here than anywhere else in the lineup.

 

 

Actually, some of his best numbers last year were when he was hitting leadoff when Soriano was hurt, and this year he has done pretty well there despite his early season struggles when they moved him there. All that said, lineup splits are pretty dumb and mean little to nothing in terms of predictive value.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Theriot started hitting horribly everytime he's been moved into the leadoff spot. This was tried a few times last year and it didn't work. It didn't work when it was tried earlier this year. Theriot has been a very pleasant surprise and is giving great production considering what he's being paid and the position he plays. Still, there's no way I'd move Soriano out of the spot where he feels most comfortable in order to put Theriot at leadoff. His numbers don't justify getting more ABs than anyone else on the team. I would do Soriano/Fukudome in either order one and two, but I'd lean towards putting Soriano at leadoff because he's always hit better there.

 

I like Theriot as an 8 hitter. He's smart enough and patient enough to do well with the pitcher hitting behind him. Free swingers will get themselves out a lot in the 8 hole swinging at bad pitches. Also, his speed makes it a lot easier for him to be bunted over, and the SB is probably more useful here than anywhere else in the lineup.

 

 

Actually, some of his best numbers last year were when he was hitting leadoff when Soriano was hurt, and this year he has done pretty well there despite his early season struggles when they moved him there. All that said, lineup splits are pretty dumb and mean little to nothing in terms of predictive value.

 

2007......

 

Theriot            AB    R    H   2B   3B   HR   TB  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS  BABIP
batting 1st       150   30   45   13    1    1   63   11   10   16  0.300  0.342  0.420  0.762  0.331
batting 2nd       277   37   70   11    1    1   86   20   29   26  0.253  0.324  0.310  0.634  0.276
batting 4th         2    1    1    0    0    0    1    0    0    1  0.500  0.500  0.500  1.000  1.000
batting 5th         1    1    1    0    0    0    1    0    1    0  1.000  1.000  1.000  2.000  1.000
batting 6th         4    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000  0.000
batting 7th        35    3    9    3    0    0   12    3    5    3  0.257  0.350  0.343  0.693  0.281
batting 8th        46    5   13    2    0    0   15    8    3    2  0.283  0.314  0.326  0.640  0.295
batting 9th        18    3    3    1    0    1    7    2    0    2  0.167  0.167  0.389  0.556  0.133

All spots         533   80  142   30    2    3  185   44   48   50  0.266  0.325  0.347  0.672  0.290

 

.... and 2008......

 

Theriot            AB    R    H   2b   3b   HR  RBI   BB   SO     BA    OBP    SLG    OPS  BABIP  P/PA   IsoD   RBI%
batting 1st        49    4   16    0    0    0    3    3    5  0.327  0.365  0.327  0.692  0.364  3.58  0.039  0.200
batting 2nd       248   39   81   12    1    1   21   32   21  0.327  0.406  0.395  0.802  0.354  3.67  0.080  0.200
batting 7th        11    1    5    0    0    0    0    1    1  0.455  0.500  0.455  0.955  0.500  3.31  0.045  0.000
batting 8th        29    3    6    0    0    0    0    3    5  0.207  0.281  0.207  0.488  0.250  4.72  0.074  0.000
batting 9th        10    4    3    0    0    0    0    2    1  0.300  0.417  0.300  0.717  0.333  3.92  0.117  0.000

All spots         347   51  111   12    1    1   24   41   33  0.320  0.394  0.369  0.763  0.351  3.74  0.074  0.161

[17 Seconds]

Oh look, wrigley23 has turned this into another Soriano debate. I'm stunned.

[Jehrico]

Count me into the crowd that really cares less what order guys bat in as long as our best hitters are getting plenty of looks. That said, I do realize that some players aren't as mentally strong as others, and may need to be placed in less than optimal positions in the lineup to get the most production out of them because that is where they are "comfortable."

 

If a guy produces well in a slot, then good. Don't fix it.

[wrigley23]

Add Jerico to dexter as the ones who post smartass remarks after the argument slows down to discussion only to get things stirred up again. They just come back w/ the personal attacks as that is their style. For those doubting major league scouts did not say these things then I don't know what to tell you. Soriano does put up numbers but they tend to come in bunches rather than a consistent flow. To me, that is not what you want out of your leadoff hitter. He bigtime tanked in the playoffs last year & the offense slowed to a crawl as a result. Is Soriano a great hitter IMO? No. Is he one of the best when he is streaky? Yes. We've discussed the reasons why lou puts him there. They are the same as why he didn't pull him in the last innings when he cost us ballgames through his fielding debauchery. He now gets pulled in the late innings, but that took a lot of courage for lou to do it. Soriano's psyche is fragile & lou handles him w/ kid gloves as a result. That's why I've made the comment about this being the Chicago Soriano's in lieu of the Cubs.

[David]

What on Earth in Jehrico's post can be considered a smartass remark?

[David]

I vote we call the Cubs the "Sorianos" in every game thread.

[Jehrico]

Add Jerico to dexter as the ones who post smartass remarks after the argument slows down to discussion only to get things stirred up again. They just come back w/ the personal attacks as that is their style. For those doubting major league scouts did not say these things then I don't know what to tell you. Soriano does put up numbers but they tend to come in bunches rather than a consistent flow. To me, that is not what you want out of your leadoff hitter. He bigtime tanked in the playoffs last year & the offense slowed to a crawl as a result. Is Soriano a great hitter IMO? No. Is he one of the best when he is streaky? Yes. We've discussed the reasons why lou puts him there. They are the same as why he didn't pull him in the last innings when he cost us ballgames through his fielding debauchery. He now gets pulled in the late innings, but that took a lot of courage for lou to do it. Soriano's psyche is fragile & lou handles him w/ kid gloves as a result. That's why I've made the comment about this being the Chicago Soriano's in lieu of the Cubs.

If you want to put me in the smartass crowd, at least give me the opportunity to post something worthy. All I simply did in that post was put in my $0.02 on the argument without denigrating anyone else. I put forth absolutely no effort to rebuke any of your opinions in that post. There wasn't anything personal in that post whatsoever. Apparently, you are in serious need of some reading comprehension skills. If you're somehow linking me adding my opinion in that post to being a smartass, then you're either a) an idiot, or b) you're way too sensitive to post on any board on the internet as you can't tolerate anyone who disagrees with you. If you fall in category a, then just say so and we'll all start ignoring you instead of riling you up. If you're in category b, then you need to stay away from the internet for the sake of your own stress level and well-being as you obviously can't handle it.

[David]

I think he just has a hard time recognizing who posted what, because earlier in the thread he referenced me positively contributing to the discussion (calling it "refreshing").

 

That couldn't be further from the truth.

[Derwood]

you know who else tanked in the playoffs last year?

 

EVERYONE

[Sammy Sofa]

They are the same as why he didn't pull him in the last innings when he cost us ballgames through his fielding debauchery.

 

Damn Soriano and his late-inning outfield orgies.