What if the Cubs never traded for Sutcliffe and Williams?

[CuseCubFan69]

What if the Cubs kept Carter, Hall, Tabler and Raffy...would that have been better than one season of Sutcliffe and Williams?

[biittner77]

Sutcliffe was a big part of 2 division championships. Was that worth Joe Carter? Hard to say considering how much 1984 helped change expectations for the franchise.

 

Williams was not worth Palmeiro.

[RynoRules]

Sutcliffe was a big part of 2 division championships. Was that worth Joe Carter? Hard to say considering how much 1984 helped change expectations for the franchise.

 

Williams was not worth Palmeiro.

 

The Suttcliffe trade won the division title in 84'. He won 19 more (IIRC) in 89'.

 

Williams was never as valuable and trading Palmeiro to get him was short-sighted. That said, someone had to get him off of Ryno's wife.

[Little Slide Rooter]

What if the Cubs never traded Ivan DeJesus for Ryne Sandberg? What if the CUbs never traded Jose Hernandez for Aramis Ramirez? What if the Cubs never traded Hee Sop Choi fo Derrek Lee? You win some, you lose some.

[NCCubFan]

The trade that really hurt the Cubs was trading Lee Smith for Calvin Schiraldi. If that trade isn't made the Williams trade would have been unnecessary. I think the Sutcliffe trade was good and the Williams trade bad.

[Clem Fandango]

If you ignore Carter's HR and RBI totals, his numbers really aren't that spectacular. They're not bad, but they're not as great as his world series HR would lead you to believe.

 

Career:

.770 OPS

105 OPS+

.306 OBP,

 

He was a slugger and he could run a bit in his prime no doubt, but that's about all he was. I don't understand why people regret getting rid of him. Even during a 9 year stretch between 1986 and 1994 when he was most productive, his OPS+ was an acceptable 112. Nothing remarkable.

[Tracer Bullet]

I googled the palmeiro/williams trade and found a story in the NYT. Murray Chass wasn't any better in 1988 than he is now.

 

Jim Frey, the Chicago Cubs' general manager, thought he might have to trade Shawon Dunston, his good young shortstop, to get the closing relief pitcher he desperately wanted. But today Frey acquired that pitcher, Mitch Williams, and retained Dunston.

 

In doing so, however, Frey gave up another good young player, Rafael Palmeiro, the Cubs' left fielder, whose .307 batting average was the second best in the National League this year but who had no game-winning runs batted in.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I remember when GWRBI was an official stat. even as a small boy I remembered thinking how useless of a statistic it was

[CuseCubFan69]

What if the Cubs never traded Ivan DeJesus for Ryne Sandberg? What if the CUbs never traded Jose Hernandez for Aramis Ramirez? What if the Cubs never traded Hee Sop Choi fo Derrek Lee? You win some, you lose some.

 

I realize that LLF. I was just thinking how it would have been if the Cubs kept their core of young guys together back in the day.

[champaignchris]

We certainly got more than one year of Sutcliffe.

 

He won 82 games with the Cubs from '84 to '91 and was our top pitcher on two division champ teams.

 

Carter was only on Cleveland until '89 and they never made the post-season with him. They did get Sandy Alomar and Carlos Baerga from the Padres when they traded him, though.

 

I'll certainly concede that the Mitch Williams deal was horrible. Don't forget that in addition to giving up Palmeiro we also gave up Jamie Moyer in that deal, without getting anything else of consequence from the Rangers.

 

That Williams deal was in the midst of a four or five year spree of bad closer moves.

 

In '87 we gave up Lee Smith (298 more saves before retirement) for Calvin Schiraldi and Al Nippur (both out of baseball by 1992).

 

Also in '87, we gave up Dennis Eckersley (387 more saves before retirement) for three whodats, none of whom ever played an inning in the bigs.

 

In '88, we signed Rich Gossage to be our closer. 289 saves prior to signing, 21 saves with six different teams after signing.

 

Then the Williams deal in '88. Only on the team for two seasons before being traded for Bob Scanlon and Chuck McElroy, neither of whom were on the Cubs for more than 3 seasons.

 

Then we signed Dave Smith in '90. 199 saves prior to signing, 17 saves after signing. Out of baseball in 1992.

[abuck1220]

i haven't seen the term GWRBI since the last time i looked at the back of a 1987 topps.

[NCCubFan]

That Williams deal was in the midst of a four or five year spree of bad closer moves.

 

In '87 we gave up Lee Smith (298 more saves before retirement) for Calvin Schiraldi and Al Nippur (both out of baseball by 1992).

 

Also in '87, we gave up Dennis Eckersley (387 more saves before retirement) for three whodats, none of whom ever played an inning in the bigs.

 

In '88, we signed Rich Gossage to be our closer. 289 saves prior to signing, 21 saves with six different teams after signing.

 

Then the Williams deal in '88. Only on the team for two seasons before being traded for Bob Scanlon and Chuck McElroy, neither of whom were on the Cubs for more than 3 seasons.

 

Then we signed Dave Smith in '90. 199 saves prior to signing, 17 saves after signing. Out of baseball in 1992.

Even though it was a couple years later I think the signing of Mel Rojas also belongs in this list.

[bhogg]

i haven't seen the term GWRBI since the last time i looked at the back of a 1987 topps.

 

 

 

'88 Topps, if I recall :) I think the Hawk led the league with 16 GWRBI and I thought it was cool. . . . . I was 10 years old.

[BDWeav71]

i haven't seen the term GWRBI since the last time i looked at the back of a 1987 topps.

 

 

 

'88 Topps, if I recall :) I think the Hawk led the league with 16 GWRBI and I thought it was cool. . . . . I was 10 years old.

 

 

 

I don't care how pointless of a stat it is, its still frickin cool if the Hawk is involved.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Sarge led the league in 84 with 19. Dawson had 16 in 87, tied with 5 others for 5th best in MLB

[RynoRules]

I love The Sarge.

[biittner77]

GWRBI was dumb. The criteria was the run that put the team ahead to stay. It often went like this: Dernier would get on first, Sandberg would get a hit moving Dernier to 3rd, Matthews would ground into a FC and drive in what would be considered the GWRBI when the Cubs eventually win 5-4. Nevermind the 3 run HR by Moreland that actually gave them the margin of victory.

[biittner77]

The trade that really hurt the Cubs was trading Lee Smith for Calvin Schiraldi. If that trade isn't made the Williams trade would have been unnecessary. I think the Sutcliffe trade was good and the Williams trade bad.

 

Worst trade from an era of bad trades. This was worse than any trade made by Hendry.

[CuseCubFan69]

I love The Sarge.

 

I forgot how the Cubs got him from Philly? Geeze, the Phillies help the Cubs a lot...Ryno, Mathews, Bowa. Fergie (earlier I know) too but that's just me lovin number 31!

[NCCubFan]

I love The Sarge.

 

I forgot how the Cubs got him from Philly?

Trade near the end of Spring Training in 1984. The Cubs got Sarge along with Bob Dernier and Porfi Altamirano for Bill Campbell and Mike Diaz.

[CuseCubFan69]

I love The Sarge.

 

I forgot how the Cubs got him from Philly?

Trade near the end of Spring Training in 1984. The Cubs got Sarge along with Bob Dernier and Porfi Altamirano for Bill Campbell and Mike Diaz.

 

Oh yeah, Dernier, how could I forget that? Dal really put one past his ex employer.

[NCCubFan]

I love The Sarge.

 

I forgot how the Cubs got him from Philly?

Trade near the end of Spring Training in 1984. The Cubs got Sarge along with Bob Dernier and Porfi Altamirano for Bill Campbell and Mike Diaz.

 

Oh yeah, Dernier, how could I forget that? Dal really put one past his ex employer.

And Green had already stolen Sandberg from the Phillies. As much as people have joked about Hendry's trading with Pittsburgh, Green did just as much (if not more) with Philadelphia back then. I remember thinking of the Cubs as Philadelphia West back then.

[biittner77]

Ivan DeJesus was a pretty decent SS and the trade got rid of Larry Bowa who was pretty much finished. Sandberg was a little hitting, couldn't hack it at SS, infielder. Matthews was pretty mcuh finsihed by 86. Dernier was never that good after 84. These moves are not why we should remember Dallas Green. He started rebuilding the minor leagues.