Dusty Hates Young Players

[BigbadB]

poor reds44. he's just like a lot of us were in 2003. some giants fans tried to warn us, but dusty talked a pretty good game and came with a good career record.

I remember that from the cubs.com board. I'm one of those who thought the Giants fans were all wet. I soon saw the error of my ways. Reds44 will too.

 

Yeah, I am guilty as well. I fell into the "he's a player's manager" and "everybody loves to play for Dusty" hype. Little did I know that it was just the crappy players who loved playing for Dusty, because he actually gave crappy players plenty of playing time. I suppose the guys who like to swing away like Dusty as well, because he wasn't bashful about giving everyone a green light to do just that. Furthermore, there really wasn't any lockdown evidence that he abused pitchers, at least not enough to convince me that he would hurt the team more than he would help the team.

[XZero771679666304]

Here's a story from ESPN.com about being cautious about picking young cincy players in fantasy ball because of Dusty.

 

LINK

[cheapseats]

Based on spring numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if Hatteberg becomes the first baseman and Votto could be in AAA.

 

I'm surprised you thought spring numbers would have any influence. I never thought Votto had a chance of starting more than once or twice a week anyway.

[indifferent]

Oh, Baker likes young pitchers. We won't argue with you there. He liked Prior so much that he left him out there inning after inning after inning after inning, infinity.

 

Prior was a rookie in 2002. He pitched 59 innings in the minors and 116 for the Cubs. 2003 was his first full season in the majors. All told, Prior threw 211 innings in the regular season at the ripe young age of 22. If 211 innings isn't bad enough, let's add 23 more during the 2003 playoffs.

 

At age 22, Prior threw 234 innings.

 

Now let's look at his 2003 game log.

 

130 pitches or more- 3 games

120-129 pitches- 6 games

111-119 pitches- 10 games

101-110 pitches- 7 games

99 or less pitches- 4 games

 

A lot of folks gave up on Mark Prior with this team. A lot of people called him a wuss. A lot of people got very frustrated that he always seems like he's hurt.

 

Truth be told, Dusty Baker beat the hell out of Prior in 2003, and he never recovered.

 

Let's look at my favorite game from 2003:

 

On September 1st, the Cubs had a 7-0 lead on St. Louis after 6 innings. Prior ended up pitching 8 innings and throwing 131 pitches. Brilliant!

 

Not to be outdone, Zambrano threw 232 innings in 2003 at the age of 23. Wood threw 241 innings in 2003. Kerry had a 141 pitch outing on May 10th.

 

The game logs from 2003 say it all. Someone else can post the PAP numbers from the Dusty era in Chicago. Cubs starters were at or near the top every year Dusty was in charge. I want to say that all three (Prior, Wood and Zambrano) were in the top 5 for pitcher abuse in 2003.

 

Thanks, BBB. This is a good synopsis of PAP compliments of Dusty. I have a lot of family from Cincy. This is what they have to look forward to.

[inari]

This is the year that I think we'll find out if Z survived Dusty. If his decline continues, it's pretty obvious that his arm has been destroyed too.

[Derwood]

with any luck i'll be able to see Votto, Bruce and Bailey when the Riverbats play the Clippers in May

[sneakypower]

Bailey should be there for awhile, and it's not because of Dusty.

[wade]

http://redlegnation.com/2008/03/24/fantasyland/

 

Dusty 'babies' young pitchers, according to him.

[XZero771679666304]

http://redlegnation.com/2008/03/24/fantasyland/

 

Dusty 'babies' young pitchers, according to him.

 

:lol:

[BigbadB]

Oh, Baker likes young pitchers. We won't argue with you there. He liked Prior so much that he left him out there inning after inning after inning after inning, infinity.

 

Prior was a rookie in 2002. He pitched 59 innings in the minors and 116 for the Cubs. 2003 was his first full season in the majors. All told, Prior threw 211 innings in the regular season at the ripe young age of 22. If 211 innings isn't bad enough, let's add 23 more during the 2003 playoffs.

 

At age 22, Prior threw 234 innings.

 

Now let's look at his 2003 game log.

 

130 pitches or more- 3 games

120-129 pitches- 6 games

111-119 pitches- 10 games

101-110 pitches- 7 games

99 or less pitches- 4 games

 

A lot of folks gave up on Mark Prior with this team. A lot of people called him a wuss. A lot of people got very frustrated that he always seems like he's hurt.

 

Truth be told, Dusty Baker beat the hell out of Prior in 2003, and he never recovered.

 

Let's look at my favorite game from 2003:

 

On September 1st, the Cubs had a 7-0 lead on St. Louis after 6 innings. Prior ended up pitching 8 innings and throwing 131 pitches. Brilliant!

 

Not to be outdone, Zambrano threw 232 innings in 2003 at the age of 23. Wood threw 241 innings in 2003. Kerry had a 141 pitch outing on May 10th.

 

The game logs from 2003 say it all. Someone else can post the PAP numbers from the Dusty era in Chicago. Cubs starters were at or near the top every year Dusty was in charge. I want to say that all three (Prior, Wood and Zambrano) were in the top 5 for pitcher abuse in 2003.

 

Thanks, BBB. This is a good synopsis of PAP compliments of Dusty. I have a lot of family from Cincy. This is what they have to look forward to.

 

You are welcome, however, the information wasn't complete. Here is what Prior did in the playoffs that year.

 

132 pitches and a complete game in the NLDS, 115 pitches 5 days later in his first start in the NLCS and 119 pitches in his final start in the NLCS.

[cheapseats]

 

You are welcome, however, the information wasn't complete. Here is what Prior did in the playoffs that year.

 

132 pitches and a complete game in the NLDS, 115 pitches 5 days later in his first start in the NLCS and 119 pitches in his final start in the NLCS.

 

For those with Baseball Prospectus subscriptions, this is a scarily prescient article:

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2054

 

Basically, just three months into the 2003 season, Gary Huckaby predicted that Baker's misuse of Prior would cause permanent damage that would show up within his next 44 starts (so before the 2005 season).

 

Nate Silver's thoughts:

 

"As a Cubs fan, I'm actually hoping that the team overpays for middle-relief help just so it discourages Baker from doing stuff like this...Prior does have beautiful mechanics, but that just mitigates the risk, not eliminates it. I try not to be a total fascist about this stuff, and I can see an argument for pushing a guy once or twice a year in the perfect situations, but Baker has done it indiscriminately."

[TruffleShuffle]

i resent dusty for a lot of things, but his ruining of mark prior makes me far more angry than anything else he did. we had a future hall of fame pitcher, a guy who could've mentioned in the same breath as roger clemens as the best pitcher as the best pitcher of a generation, and dusty drove him into the ground. thank God he's gone, but i feel bad for the arms on the reds that he will systematically ruin.

[JGalt73]

Joe Posnanski weighs in on Dusty's 2003 arm shredding:

 

In 2003, under Dusty, Mark Prior threw 120-plus pitches nine different times — five of those in September alone (he finished the year throwing 131 pitches at Pittsburgh, and 133 more at home against Pittsburgh). That same year, Kerry Wood threw 120+ pitches 13 times, including four after August 27 (he also had a 141 pitch outing against St. Louis). Remember that Wood was only 26 and had already dealt with arm problems, and Prior was only 22 and pitching his first full year in the Majors.

 

Here’s what strikes me about it: This was only five years ago. And yet, the landscape has changed so much that something like that happening now (even with Dusty back as manager) seems almost unimaginable — 2003 looks almost like the days before child labor laws or something. Heck, these days a manager gets crucified and has to explain himself for allowing throwing a young pitcher 120-plus pitches even ONCE (and if ANYONE let a young pitcher throw 141 pitches, he would get taken away in a straitjacket).

 

Take a quick look at the 25 and under pitchers from last season:

 

Fausto Carmona (23): Threw 120+ pitches once (in a 9 inning shutout)

Justin Verlander (24): Threw 120+ pitches twice.

Oliver Perez (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Cole Hamels (23): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

King Felix (21): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Adam Wainwright (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Tom Gorzelanny (24): Threw 120+ pitches twice.

Jered Weaver (24): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

Scott Kazmir (23): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

Dustin McGowan (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

 

This is not to say that Dusty Baker was wrong (though I think he was) or that the current way of handling things will keep young pitchers healthier (which we don’t know yet). The point is that in just five years, perceptions have changed immensely. I think that, yes, even in 2003, everyone thought Dusty was abusing his pitchers. Now, though, it looks absolutely monstrous.

[CubinNY]

Joe Posnanski weighs in on Dusty's 2003 arm shredding:

 

In 2003, under Dusty, Mark Prior threw 120-plus pitches nine different times — five of those in September alone (he finished the year throwing 131 pitches at Pittsburgh, and 133 more at home against Pittsburgh). That same year, Kerry Wood threw 120+ pitches 13 times, including four after August 27 (he also had a 141 pitch outing against St. Louis). Remember that Wood was only 26 and had already dealt with arm problems, and Prior was only 22 and pitching his first full year in the Majors.

 

Here’s what strikes me about it: This was only five years ago. And yet, the landscape has changed so much that something like that happening now (even with Dusty back as manager) seems almost unimaginable — 2003 looks almost like the days before child labor laws or something. Heck, these days a manager gets crucified and has to explain himself for allowing throwing a young pitcher 120-plus pitches even ONCE (and if ANYONE let a young pitcher throw 141 pitches, he would get taken away in a straitjacket).

 

Take a quick look at the 25 and under pitchers from last season:

 

Fausto Carmona (23): Threw 120+ pitches once (in a 9 inning shutout)

Justin Verlander (24): Threw 120+ pitches twice.

Oliver Perez (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Cole Hamels (23): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

King Felix (21): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Adam Wainwright (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

Tom Gorzelanny (24): Threw 120+ pitches twice.

Jered Weaver (24): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

Scott Kazmir (23): Threw 120+ pitches zero times.

Dustin McGowan (25): Threw 120+ pitches once.

 

This is not to say that Dusty Baker was wrong (though I think he was) or that the current way of handling things will keep young pitchers healthier (which we don’t know yet). The point is that in just five years, perceptions have changed immensely. I think that, yes, even in 2003, everyone thought Dusty was abusing his pitchers. Now, though, it looks absolutely monstrous.

Dusty will pay no attention to what others are doing and do what he's always done. He's impervious to reason. He's probably the closest thing to what Joe Morgan would be like as a manager.

[inari]

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but I haven't seen anyone's answer. Putting yourself back into 2003, would you sacrifice a chance at the playoffs by putting Prior and ensuring his long-term health?

[wade]

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but I haven't seen anyone's answer. Putting yourself back into 2003, would you sacrifice a chance at the playoffs by putting Prior and ensuring his long-term health?

 

I see what you're saying and its not a simple call. However, there were probably opportunities (especially up 7 runs like that one game BBB mentioned) where you could watch him a little.

 

I remember this, the Tigers flat out skipped Verlander two years ago in the middle of a pennant race, (though they had the wildcard as a back up). I know that he was coddled though, and it was during an important stretch of the season.

[cheapseats]

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but I haven't seen anyone's answer. Putting yourself back into 2003, would you sacrifice a chance at the playoffs by putting Prior and ensuring his long-term health?

 

No.

 

It was a stupid short-term strategy, too, as there's a pretty strong correlation between high pitch counts in game A and poor performance in game B.

[TruffleShuffle]

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but I haven't seen anyone's answer. Putting yourself back into 2003, would you sacrifice a chance at the playoffs by putting Prior and ensuring his long-term health?

 

No.

 

It was a stupid short-term strategy, too, as there's a pretty strong correlation between high pitch counts in game A and poor performance in game B.

 

plus prior did not have to throw as many innings or rack up the pitch counts he did. our bullpen wasn't bad that year, and there were numerous examples of dusty inexplicably leaving prior in when the cubs had a big lead. the cubs could've pitched prior that year without abusing him the way they did; dusty is completely incompetent, so it didn't happen the way it should have.

[radarluv1]

i remember the bullpen being pretty shaky in 03. veres, for instance.

 

priors PC in the game before game 6 was an abomination

[cheapseats]

 

plus prior did not have to throw as many innings or rack up the pitch counts he did. our bullpen wasn't bad that year, and there were numerous examples of dusty inexplicably leaving prior in when the cubs had a big lead.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2392

 

Around the fifth inning, I realized that I was wrong about something. "Antonio Alfonseca" is the correct answer to the question, "Who should pitch the last four innings of this game?" After all, the Cubs had a huge lead, and Mark Prior had thrown 133 pitches in each of his last two starts, plus many, many more in the 29 preceding those...

 

Prior had completed five innings using just 73 pitches. He walked off the mound with an 8-0 lead and scheduled to bat fourth in the bottom of the frame. I really couldn't see an argument for letting him bat, although it seemed too optimistic to hope that his night would be over. Sure enough, he laid down a sacrifice bunt, and 15 minutes later, took the mound with an 11-0 lead. Ten pitches into the sixth, the score was 11-2, and Prior seemed like a lock for the showers. He got out of the inning having reached a pitch count of 94 and having shown some mortality. Due up fourth again in the sixth, I figured we'd see a pinch-hitter.

 

Prior batted. Up 12-2, now...I was more than a little surprised that Prior would still be in the game. A 10-run lead with three innings to play was a gift from the gods to Dusty Baker, a chance to give his overworked right-hander a well-earned short night. Besides, Prior had just given up two home runs and had his longest inning of the game. Everything pointed to the bullpen.

 

This is, of course, the same Dusty Baker who sent Russ Ortiz out to the mound with an 11-run lead in the sixth inning, when Ortiz had just given up four runs in the fifth. Cowboy up, indeed.

 

Prior came out for the seventh, and I started drinking. Mercifully, it was a 10-pitch, 1-2-3 inning that pushed Prior's pitch count, on what should have been a light night, to 104...

 

Baker had Troy O'Leary bat for Moises Alou in the bottom of the seventh. That's good, because it's very important to protect your immobile left fielder from overuse...

 

Finally, FINALLY, after Prior walks Mark Redman on nine pitches to start the eighth and Randall Simon makes an error behind him, Baker walks to the mound. I flipped to the other game, but came back a couple of minutes later. After all, it could have just been a pep talk. No, Dave Veres was pitching. Ish. Prior was done after 116 pitches.

[TruffleShuffle]

that, plus the marlins game, really made me irate toward dusty. i had been giving him a chance most of that year. when he left prior in for way too many pitches in game two, i was done with him.

[CubinNY]

"Baker had Troy O'Leary bat for Moises Alou in the bottom of the seventh. That's good, because it's very important to protect your immobile left fielder from overuse..."

 

That's awesome!