LaRussa-The Substance Abuse Enabler

[daske17]

I may be misremembering, but didn't Canseco claim to shoot up McGwire in the Oakland clubhouse when they were both A's? If so, don't you think that Larussa would have some kind of domain over what's going on in there? Not to mention that McGwire had andro clearly visible in his locker in 98. You can use the "it wasn't banned" argument, but at the same time that doesn't make it right.

 

And wasn't part of the reason that the Cardinals eliminated booze from the clubhouse because of Hancock's death? Again, you would think that Larussa would have a hand in keeping an eye on his players while they're "at work."

 

I'm not sure I would call him an enabler, but he certainly doesn't seem to concern himself with the health or well-being of his players so long as the team is winning.

[Soul]

I may be misremembering, but didn't Canseco claim to shoot up McGwire in the Oakland clubhouse when they were both A's? If so, don't you think that Larussa would have some kind of domain over what's going on in there? Not to mention that McGwire had andro clearly visible in his locker in 98. You can use the "it wasn't banned" argument, but at the same time that doesn't make it right.

 

And wasn't part of the reason that the Cardinals eliminated booze from the clubhouse because of Hancock's death? Again, you would think that Larussa would have a hand in keeping an eye on his players while they're "at work."

 

I'm not sure I would call him an enabler, but he certainly doesn't seem to concern himself with the health or well-being of his players so long as the team is winning.

 

But that *is* an enabler, IMO. If you're pretty sure there's a problem and you just ignore it, that's enabling. Sure, he's not responsible for what others do, but the idea isn't that he should be held culpable, just that he likely knows it is happening and pretty much actively decides to do nothing about it. At least, not until someone dies.

[seanimal]

I may be misremembering, but didn't Canseco claim to shoot up McGwire in the Oakland clubhouse when they were both A's? If so, don't you think that Larussa would have some kind of domain over what's going on in there? Not to mention that McGwire had andro clearly visible in his locker in 98. You can use the "it wasn't banned" argument, but at the same time that doesn't make it right.

 

What exactly would you have liked him to do? Wrestle the needle from Jose's hands and give him a lecture on the dangers of using a substance he probably wasn't even aware existed? This is so ridiculous.

 

And wasn't part of the reason that the Cardinals eliminated booze from the clubhouse because of Hancock's death? Again, you would think that Larussa would have a hand in keeping an eye on his players while they're "at work."

 

No, they eliminated it because a bunch of idiot fans think that the reason Josh Hancock is dead is because there was beer in the clubhouse.

 

I'm not sure I would call him an enabler, but he certainly doesn't seem to concern himself with the health or well-being of his players so long as the team is winning.

 

That's what the medical staff is for. He's there to make sure the team is winning. Period.

[daske17]

But that *is* an enabler, IMO. If you're pretty sure there's a problem and you just ignore it, that's enabling. Sure, he's not responsible for what others do, but the idea isn't that he should be held culpable, just that he likely knows it is happening and pretty much actively decides to do nothing about it. At least, not until someone dies.

 

Okay, you convinced me. He's an enabler! :good:

[seanimal]

THIS IS SO RIDICULOUS.

 

Do you not see how incredibly hypocritical you are? Have you ever taken an aspirin for a headache during the workday? Take a pharmaceutical for psychological condition? Any number of things we do to enhance our ability to do something beyond our natural means?

 

FREAKING CHEATER

[daske17]

What exactly would you have liked him to do? Wrestle the needle from Jose's hands and give him a lecture on the dangers of using a substance he probably wasn't even aware existed? This is so ridiculous.

 

Steroids were not a new invention in the late 80s. In fact, they were still illegal in the U.S. for nonprescription use (and still are). Turning a blind eye to needle use of any kind in your clubhouse is even more ridiculous.

 

No, they eliminated it because a bunch of idiot fans think that the reason Josh Hancock is dead is because there was beer in the clubhouse.

 

So you don't see any correlation between people prone to heavy drinking with free access to liquor and potential drunk driving. Huh, interesting.

 

That's what the medical staff is for. He's there to make sure the team is winning. Period.

 

If he's only there to win, he should enable steroid and other PED use because that will increase the chance of winning. The well being of his team and its image doesn't matter.

[seanimal]

What exactly would you have liked him to do? Wrestle the needle from Jose's hands and give him a lecture on the dangers of using a substance he probably wasn't even aware existed? This is so ridiculous.

 

Steroids were not a new invention in the late 80s. In fact, they were still illegal in the U.S. for nonprescription use (and still are). Turning a blind eye to needle use of any kind in your clubhouse is even more ridiculous.

 

Seriously. Two dudes went out of their way to obtain something that they knew had side-effects and was illegal to obtain without a prescription (even though they very well might have obtained one somehow), and you're blaming the guy who makes the lineup.

 

No, they eliminated it because a bunch of idiot fans think that the reason Josh Hancock is dead is because there was beer in the clubhouse.

 

So you don't see any correlation between people prone to heavy drinking with free access to liquor and potential drunk driving. Huh, interesting.

 

Not really, seeing as how the heavy drinking was occurring after he left the stadium. Continue to twist the realities of the situation to fit your witch hunt. Josh Hancock died because he was a moron, not because there were free Budweisers in the clubhouse.

 

That's what the medical staff is for. He's there to make sure the team is winning. Period.

 

If he's only there to win, he should enable steroid and other PED use because that will increase the chance of winning. The well being of his team and its image doesn't matter.

 

Like I said in another thread, all this is is fans (in this case you) tossing around clumsy moral judgments because it makes you feel superior to those who are involved in difficult situations where the "right" course of action isn't necessarily clear.

 

Just admit that the only reason you go around accusing TLR of being an enabler is because he manages a baseball team that you hate.

 

Hmm... I just thought of something. What would you call the millions of fans who spent billions of dollars to see these players who were obviously inflating their bodies somehow? Innocent bystanders? That's convenient.

Edited February 26, 2008 by seanimal

[DenverCubs]

earth2sean, you need to wise-up man...you're totally enabling this thread.

[daske17]

You're completely wrong on everything you said

 

You're absolutely right. How can I have been so blind to your argument. Tony Larussa has never done a bad thing in his managerial career and holds no accountability to his team. Thank you for clearing this up for me. :roll:

 

Whatever, I'm done.

[MPrior]

It's absurd to call TLR a substance abuse enabler just because players around him have had problems with substance abuse. I mean, maybe - MAYBE - there's something to it, but there's no way you can reasonably claim that there is without a much closer look at the way he runs his clubhouse, which none of us really have. Until then, it's a pretty silly thing to say.

 

All that said, calling TLR a baseball genius because some people claim that his teams have overperformed is also silly. For one, the evidence is biased and anecdotal, and two, even if his teams HAVE overperformed, it would still just be correlative.

[seanimal]

All that said, calling TLR a baseball genius because some people claim that his teams have overperformed is also silly. For one, the evidence is biased and anecdotal, and two, even if his teams HAVE overperformed, it would still just be correlative.

 

I was trying to point out the irony of Cubs fans complaining en masse that cardinals teams in recent history have been "overperforming", while on the other hand attempting to claim Tony LaRussa is a bad manager. it just doesn't square up logically. I wasn't saying that either perception is true or false, just that they don't jive when held together. I just didn't didn't do a very good job of explaining that.

 

That being said, "genius" is a bit of an overstatement. But I think when held against the field, he's certainly one of the smarter guys in the game.

[NonProfitCow]

Please everyone, try to remember that these are grown men. If a bunch of guys on a team are caught cheating on their wives, does that make the manager an infidelity enabler? No, it means that these men did this on their own time. Men do things, with their own time that managers don't know about, it's common like any other job. Why is this so hard to understand?

[BudHouse]

LaRussa as a manager has the responsibility for what goes on the field and in the clubhouse. Those who think otherwise are wrong. He is by all accounts quite intelligent and a micro-manager. He was the first one I can remember that used notecards, etc.. to record stats, etc.. But yet he turned a blind eye to the bloated bodies of McGwire, Canseco and others over the years, claiming they just grew larger by working out extra hard. What exercises do you do to make your hat size increase so dramatically? Or what work regime forces you to wear long sleeves in 95 degree heat in July in St. Louis? LaRussa knew what was going on and chose to keep it at arm's length. Dusty did the same thing, to what degree I don't know.

 

LaRussa 'enabled' because he knew and did nothing. LaRussa 'enabled' because he could have stopped it but encouraged it.

[TruffleShuffle]

Just curious, what was my point?

 

i'm not sure, but i find myself asking that question frequently.

 

I think it's pretty clear what my point is. Blaming LaRussa for the deaths of players and for steroid use is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard.

 

Hence, the McDonalds analogy. If these players are behaving dangerously outside of TLR's realm of responsibility, then there's really nothing he can do about it.

 

We live in a society that, in general, is pretty cavalier about drug/pharmaceutical/alcohol use. This is going to be reflected in any enterprise our society is going to engage in, regardless as to whether or not we glorify those people or the things they're doing. Being shocked that these players were injecting themselves with whatever to attempt to get ahead or partying hard after games strikes me as not only completely ignorant and unrealistic, it's DUMB.

 

Furthermore, blaming Tony LaRussa for decisions made by the players in an environment/league/industry/society where NO ONE WAS DOING ANYTHING OR TELLING ANYONE IT WAS A BAD IDEA is just monumentally idiotic. It's ignoring context in a situation where context determined everything. Plus, the heaving of clumsy moral judgments kind of reminds me of monkeys in the zoo tossing around their crap. It's a display to let the other monkeys know you're around, but ultimately you're just taking a dump in your hand and trying to hit something with it.

 

Kind of like following me around, failing to comprehend my sentences, and then calling them stupid.

 

people don't look to a mcdonald's manager like baseball players look to their manager for guidance. it's a dumb analogy. there are a lot of examples of baseball players taking cues from their manager. like the patriots, they talk about "team" a lot more and don't get carried away with individual accolades, even though they have a lot of great players. or the cubs under dusty, they seemed to make a lot of excuses for their mistakes and failed to have much in the way of accountability.

 

i'm not saying that larussa is responsible for people using steroids or for josh hancock going out and getting drunk. but there have been a lot of stories about how this behavior was pretty common for hancock. maybe if the manager set a better example by not driving drunk himself, or by having a chat with his player when he shows up hung over the the ballpark, that the player might have shown better judgment himself.

 

i guess some will say that it is completely random, but i think it is not a coincidence that certain universities' athletic programs, and certain professional organizations, are consistently embroiled in legal problems, while others are not. a lot of it comes from the example set by those high up in the organization, and the type of behavior that they preach to those whom they lead.

[seanimal]

people don't look to a mcdonald's manager like baseball players look to their manager for guidance. it's a dumb analogy.

 

I would be willing to wager that only the youngest players actually "revere" their managers.

 

there are a lot of examples of baseball players taking cues from their manager. like the patriots

 

What?

 

they talk about "team" a lot more and don't get carried away with individual accolades, even though they have a lot of great players.

 

Umm, it's quite plausible that the Patriots ran up scores for the sole reason of carrying away individual accolades.

 

i'm not saying that larussa is responsible for people using steroids or for josh hancock going out and getting drunk. but there have been a lot of stories about how this behavior was pretty common for hancock. maybe if the manager set a better example by not driving drunk himself, or by having a chat with his player when he shows up hung over the the ballpark, that the player might have shown better judgment himself.

 

If Tony LaRussa would have not been found sleeping in his car, or if he would have had a 'chat' with Josh Hancock, that player might not have gotten blitzed and plowed into a tow truck on the highway? COME THE [expletive] ON

 

You do realize that suspending or otherwise seriously disciplining Josh Hancock for showing up at the ballpark hungover had at least a 50/50 chance of making the situation worse, right? Cause, all of the sudden a person with a very serious disease now has a whole lot of free time and a bunch of disappointment and anger swirling around in his head.

 

That doesn't mean there was nothing that could or should have been done. I'm just trying to point out the fact that this essentially amounts to monday morning quarterbacking, in addition to being holier-than-thou garbage.

[UK1679666180]

LaRussa as a manager has the responsibility for what goes on the field and in the clubhouse. Those who think otherwise are wrong. He is by all accounts quite intelligent and a micro-manager. He was the first one I can remember that used notecards, etc.. to record stats, etc.. But yet he turned a blind eye to the bloated bodies of McGwire, Canseco and others over the years, claiming they just grew larger by working out extra hard. What exercises do you do to make your hat size increase so dramatically? Or what work regime forces you to wear long sleeves in 95 degree heat in July in St. Louis? LaRussa knew what was going on and chose to keep it at arm's length. Dusty did the same thing, to what degree I don't know.

 

LaRussa 'enabled' because he knew and did nothing. LaRussa 'enabled' because he could have stopped it but encouraged it.

 

That means more than likely every manager over the last 20 years is an enabler, I doubt there is a manager who did not have at least one player on his roster using steriods/HGH.

 

Most clubhouses provide alcohol and plenty of athletes have made many bad decisions as far as driving while intoxicated.

[TruffleShuffle]

people don't look to a mcdonald's manager like baseball players look to their manager for guidance. it's a dumb analogy.

 

I would be willing to wager that only the youngest players actually "revere" their managers.

 

i didn't say "revere"

 

 

Umm, it's quite plausible that the Patriots ran up scores for the sole reason of carrying away individual accolades.

 

disagree.

 

If Tony LaRussa would have not been found sleeping in his car, or if he would have had a 'chat' with Josh Hancock, that player might not have gotten blitzed and plowed into a tow truck on the highway? COME THE **** ON

 

disagree

 

You do realize that suspending or otherwise seriously disciplining Josh Hancock for showing up at the ballpark hungover had at least a 50/50 chance of making the situation worse, right? Cause, all of the sudden a person with a very serious disease now has a whole lot of free time and a bunch of disappointment and anger swirling around in his head.

 

i don't know that josh hancock was an alcoholic. just that he went out and partied a lot.

[seanimal]

people don't look to a mcdonald's manager like baseball players look to their manager for guidance. it's a dumb analogy.

 

I would be willing to wager that only the youngest players actually "revere" their managers.

 

i didn't say "revere"

 

I know you didn't, but I don't really see how it means anything different from what you're suggesting (unless I'm grossly misunderstanding what you're suggesting). In fact, I see a lot of baseball players get mad when their managers 'cross' them. To say that managers wield enormous influence over the players like a father figure or even leader seems pretty detached from reality. Sometimes it may be the case, but usually guidance and leadership comes from teammates, and not from the guy who is usually hanging out in his office.

[BudHouse]

You do realize that suspending or otherwise seriously disciplining Josh Hancock for showing up at the ballpark hungover had at least a 50/50 chance of making the situation worse, right? Cause, all of the sudden a person with a very serious disease now has a whole lot of free time and a bunch of disappointment and anger swirling around in his head.

 

Do you realize that Hancock killed himself in a rental SUV, because he was drunk and wrecked his own car 3 days earlier at 5:30AM? He was late for the Thursday day game, claiming he overslept because he had a new mattress and LaRussa merely fined him $500. Way to fix the problem, LaRussa.

[seanimal]

You do realize that suspending or otherwise seriously disciplining Josh Hancock for showing up at the ballpark hungover had at least a 50/50 chance of making the situation worse, right? Cause, all of the sudden a person with a very serious disease now has a whole lot of free time and a bunch of disappointment and anger swirling around in his head.

 

Do you realize that Hancock killed himself in a rental SUV, because he was drunk and wrecked his own car 3 days earlier at 5:30AM? He was late for the Thursday day game, claiming he overslept because he had a new mattress and LaRussa merely fined him $500. Way to fix the problem, LaRussa.

 

Yeah, he should have fined him $750!

[The Voice of Reason]

ESPN following NSBB's lead once again.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=quinn_tj&id=3270983

 

Despite Jose Canseco's declaration that he injected McGwire with steroids, despite a New York Daily News article that showed a list of steroids given to McGwire by a convicted drug dealer, and despite McGwire's legendary testimony before Congress in which he refused "to talk about the past," LaRussa says he believes McGwire's bulk came strictly from the weight room, not from a needle.

 

"He still says McGwire worked himself into that shape," says a veteran baseball executive who has been friends with LaRussa for 30 years. "It's incredible."

 

Tony LaRussa still isn't pointing fingers at any alleged steroid users. In the wake of George Mitchell's report on doping in baseball, LaRussa's professed ignorance about what went on around him in Oakland and St. Louis has marked him as one of the steroid era's enablers.

[cbbryan]

Main Entry: en·abler

Pronunciation: i-'nA-b(&-)l&r

Function: noun

: one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by helping that individual avoid the consequences of such behavior

[mul21]

e2s, question for you. I'm just curious to know what kind of envorinment you work in. I'm wondering what kind of background leads you to the opinions you've got on how leadership does/doesn't work. I'm not trying to be critical, just looking for a little insight and understanding.

[Soul]

ESPN following NSBB's lead once again.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=quinn_tj&id=3270983

 

Despite Jose Canseco's declaration that he injected McGwire with steroids, despite a New York Daily News article that showed a list of steroids given to McGwire by a convicted drug dealer, and despite McGwire's legendary testimony before Congress in which he refused "to talk about the past," LaRussa says he believes McGwire's bulk came strictly from the weight room, not from a needle.

 

"He still says McGwire worked himself into that shape," says a veteran baseball executive who has been friends with LaRussa for 30 years. "It's incredible."

 

Tony LaRussa still isn't pointing fingers at any alleged steroid users. In the wake of George Mitchell's report on doping in baseball, LaRussa's professed ignorance about what went on around him in Oakland and St. Louis has marked him as one of the steroid era's enablers.

 

Hahha.