Detroit Tigers offense

[OleMissCub]

Is this the best offensive starting lineup ever?

 

I averaged out the last season stats of who are supposed to be their starting nine: Pudge, Guillen, Renteria, Polanco, Miggy, Maggs, Granderson, Jones, and Sheffield, and came up with

 

.309/.370/.491, 15 HR, 85 RBI, 124 OPS+, 8.4 WARP3

 

That's pretty damn solid.

[sneakypower]

Their bench is too weak to expect they'll break the runs scored record. It's Raburn and scrubs. When they lose any of the several injury prone players they have, there will be a significant dropoff in production. But if it's just the starting lineup, they're definitely on the short list of most talented lineups in recent memory. Isn't this question brought up every year about the Yankees?

 

Much of their team will not put up as good of numbers as last year, specifically Magglio, Polanco, Renteria, Granderson. And why are you listing warp3 when talking about offense??

[OleMissCub]

And why are you listing warp3 when talking about offense??

 

Because I think that is a good assessment stat for comparing players and their overall influence on a game, especially as regards history. The question posed is whether they are the best in history. So I thought it was a good stat to include.

[Mephistopheles]

Re*******regression.

[Mephistopheles]

Anyways there's no chance in hell the '08 Tigers' offense are better than the '30 Yankees offense. Everyone with at least 150 PAs had an OBP over .350. For crying out loud they had a pitcher hitting .374/.415/.596 and scored 1062 runs in a 154 game season with no DH.

[sneakypower]

Well then the question is dramatically different than what you initially asked. Nobody can really presume to know which team of hitters/fielders had the most pronounced cumulative positive effect on games for a certain year. Using warp3 to try to ascertain this would draw no useful conclusions or produce any reliable results other than to delude yourself with misinformation.

[OleMissCub]

Anyways there's no chance in hell the '08 Tigers' offense are better than the '30 Yankees offense. Everyone with at least 150 PAs had an OBP over .350. For crying out loud they had a pitcher hitting .374/.415/.596 and scored 1062 runs in a 154 game season with no DH.

 

Awesome. I'm glad you pointed that out the 1930 Yankees, because I wasn't sure what other teams were out there comparable numbers.

 

I have no doubt that they will regress as well, they are full of aging ballplayers. I guess I should have phrased the question "best starting lineup on paper at the start of a season".

[sneakypower]

Anyways there's no chance in hell the '08 Tigers' offense are better than the '30 Yankees offense. Everyone with at least 150 PAs had an OBP over .350. For crying out loud they had a pitcher hitting .374/.415/.596 and scored 1062 runs in a 154 game season with no DH.

most of those guys could barely hack it in the minor leagues if they played today...

[BigbadB]

I'd rank them up there with some of the better offenses, but there are quite a few concerns:

 

Cabrera adjusting to a new league

Renteria adjusting to a new league (look at what he did in Boston)

Rodriguez will be 36 behind the dish and his numbers are declining

Maggs '07 season: Derrek Lee '05 or easily repeated?

Sheffield: Injuries are slowing him down and another year older

 

Will some of them defy age and league switches? Probably. They all benefit from a stronger line up all the way through.

[OleMissCub]

I actually think Cabrera will improve this year. He seemed to have little motivation in Florida. While I'd expect most athletes to give their utmost regardless of their situation, that just isn't realistic. I think the oft stated "change of scenery" cliche/argument actually has warrant as regards Miggy moving to a contender (and an awesome ballpark to boot).

[Mephistopheles]

Anyways there's no chance in hell the '08 Tigers' offense are better than the '30 Yankees offense. Everyone with at least 150 PAs had an OBP over .350. For crying out loud they had a pitcher hitting .374/.415/.596 and scored 1062 runs in a 154 game season with no DH.

 

Awesome. I'm glad you pointed that out the 1930 Yankees, because I wasn't sure what other teams were out there comparable numbers.

 

I have no doubt that they will regress as well, they are full of aging ballplayers. I guess I should have phrased the question "best starting lineup on paper at the start of a season".

 

That still isn't true. On paper they're not that great.

 

Anyways there's no chance in hell the '08 Tigers' offense are better than the '30 Yankees offense. Everyone with at least 150 PAs had an OBP over .350. For crying out loud they had a pitcher hitting .374/.415/.596 and scored 1062 runs in a 154 game season with no DH.

most of those guys could barely hack it in the minor leagues if they played today...

 

Neither could Babe Ruth. So can we assume that Corey Patterson is better than Babe Ruth?

[sneakypower]

with Babe Ruth it isn't so clearly obvious that he'd be an utter failure in the majors if he played today. he'd probably more resemble Matt Stairs than an all-time elite slugger.

[OleMissCub]

with Babe Ruth it isn't so clearly obvious that he'd be an utter failure in the majors if he played today. he'd probably more resemble Matt Stairs than an all-time elite slugger.

 

I pray to Allah that this is sarcasm.

[BigbadB]

with Babe Ruth it isn't so clearly obvious that he'd be an utter failure in the majors if he played today. he'd probably more resemble Matt Stairs than an all-time elite slugger.

 

You do realize that Ruth didn't just casually finish ahead of other players in his era in several statistical categories, but blew their doors off, right?

 

First in home runs 12 times. 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 8th in his final season.

 

Take a look at 1920. Ruth hit 54 home runs, which was more than every American League team. His 54 home runs was more than Boston and Detroits combined team home runs.

 

His nearest HR competitor doesn't have as many home runs as Ruth if you multiplied his home run total by 3.

 

And that's only a few stats from 1920. He had a lengthy career. There is no way you can convince me that he's nothing more than a Matt Stairs in this era.

[frostwyrm]

Still no word on whether the Tigers are bringing Neifi back.

[OleMissCub]

There is no way you can convince me that he's nothing more than a Matt Stairs in this era.

 

I doubt Matt Stairs could go 94-46 with a 2.28 ERA as well.

[sneakypower]

Babe Ruth wouldn't have a 2.28 ERA in this era either.

 

I'm not going to anoint him because his contemporaries were talentless. He was great by comparison in his days, he'd be left in the dust if he played with today's players. I don't know how this could be disputed.

[OleMissCub]

I'm not going to anoint him because his contemporaries were talentless. He was great by comparison in his days, he'd be left in the dust if he played with today's players. I don't know how this could be disputed.

 

 

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4442/siscovk0.gif

[Ender]

I'd take even money on a bet that they aren't the best offense in baseball in 2008, much less ever. I of course would be taking the field not picking a specific team.

 

Yeah they have a lot of good hitters but Pudge is regressing fast, Ordonez won't come anywhere near repeating last year and I'm not a believer in Granderson or Polanco repeating last year either. Guillen is on the wrong side of 29, it wouldn't surprise me if Sheffield played less than half a season and I'm not sure Renteria is much of an upgrade over what they got at 1B last year.

[rawaction]

Is this Tigers offense any better "on paper" than recent Yankees, Red Sox or Mets teams? What about the 05 Yankees specifically?

 

 

C Posada/Pudge

1B TMartinez/ Guillen

2B Cano/Polanco

SS Jeter/ Renteria

3B Arod/ Cabrera

RF Sheffield/ Ordonez

LF Matsui/ Jones

CF B. Williams/ Granderson

DH Giambi/ Sheffield

 

Tino was the only weak spot on paper, but probably very similar to what Jacque Jones is expected to provide this year for the Tigers. Bernie had a horrible year in 05, but was coming off of a .360 OBP and 108 OPS+. The 05 Yanks were clearly better at C, SS, and LF. The Tigers are clearly better at 1B and maybe CF. I'd give the Yanks a slight edge also at DH and 3B, with RF being a toss up.

[Mephistopheles]

It's okay, CroMagnon will make something up soon.

[mcgoobs]

Babe Ruth wouldn't have a 2.28 ERA in this era either.

 

I'm not going to anoint him because his contemporaries were talentless. He was great by comparison in his days, he'd be left in the dust if he played with today's players. I don't know how this could be disputed.

 

This is just a question, but what percentge of offensive players today do you think would put up better numbers than Ruth if they were put in a time machine and shipped back to the 20s?

 

I'm just trying to get a sense of your view of the difference between the eras.

[frostwyrm]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

[OleMissCub]

I actually agree with CroMag about Ruth, to some degree. Ruth used a huge 46 oz. bat. There's no human alive who could use a 46 oz. bat against today's pitchers.

 

42 ounces, actually (still heavy as god knows).

 

But, do you really think pitchers in the 20's and 30's threw that much slower? When I was playing in high school, the average pitcher we faced was throwing in the low to mid 80's and the good ones could get it into the 90's. These are 16-17 year olds with no real conditioning and no real training. So, a 2008 teenager >>>>>>> 1925 grown man that is a professional athlete?

[BigbadB]

Is this Tigers offense any better "on paper" than recent Yankees, Red Sox or Mets teams? What about the 05 Yankees specifically?

 

 

C Posada/Pudge

1B TMartinez/ Guillen

2B Cano/Polanco

SS Jeter/ Renteria

3B Arod/ Cabrera

RF Sheffield/ Ordonez

LF Matsui/ Jones

CF B. Williams/ Granderson

DH Giambi/ Sheffield

 

Tino was the only weak spot on paper, but probably very similar to what Jacque Jones is expected to provide this year for the Tigers. Bernie had a horrible year in 05, but was coming off of a .360 OBP and 108 OPS+. The 05 Yanks were clearly better at C, SS, and LF. The Tigers are clearly better at 1B and maybe CF. I'd give the Yanks a slight edge also at DH and 3B, with RF being a toss up.

 

Tino Martinez was still playing in '05? ugh.