MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[inari]

too back those bloody diamondbacks got haren...he would have been a SWEET addition to our roster

 

Haren's good, but I don't think he would've been worth the price.

[RammyFanny]

I remember when the first Roberts thread was started and it was something like: "Finally, a real rumor: Brian Roberts", and it was all completely just an idea, and people (including myself were bashing the poster because it wasn't actually a rumor. I can't imagine reading through this entire thread...

 

idea: Roberts to Cubs -> Cubs interested in Roberts -> Cubs/O's discussing Roberts -> Roberts named in Mitchell Report -> Cubs interest in Roberts not effected by Mitchell report -> deal should be done after the new year -> deal should be done by the end of the week -> deal should be by tonight -> O's insider loses insider status... it was all leak-baiting -> deal still could happen -> deal is awaiting Angelo's approval -> Deal is in MLB officies -> DEAL IS DONE per O's Hangout ("multiple sources") -> MacPhail denies it -> Deal fell through -> O's want Pie/Hill/Marmol? -> Deal still possible -> Indians offer better package -> 0% chance of deal being done.

 

What a waste of time.

 

Well, there was the actual article saying the teams were in serious discussions, followed by Bruce coming on and saying "This one has legs". And I don't know exactly what Levine said. Someone said 0% chance, so I put that, but then I also read that Levine just said that the Orioles aren't trading him now (duh, probably Bedard first so they know what they need in a package), and that they might like the Indians offer better.

[RynoHawk23]

You guys are right. Regular season numbers don't translate all of the time - good or bad. And 5 game series are crap shoots. I agree.

 

But! If I had to take my chances I would choose Sabathia and Carmona everytime over Z/Lilly. That's me though. I guess I gravitate towards the hard throwing guys.

 

And to correct myself, Lilly wasn't "hittable" in the sense that he gets rocked around. That's not what I meant to imply. He had a great WHIP because he didn't walk guys - so the larger portion of his whip is getting hit around. Which in the playoffs, when he's facing solid lineups he's going to be weakened. Especially if he's off - like we saw in the playoff game - then his pitches are even more hittable.

 

He had his best statistical season last year - right? But before last year, most would agree that he was a #3 pitcher at best. The guy had never had a winning season right? But overall, don't get me wrong, Lilly is a great player and a pitcher we need on this team.

 

As for Hill, you can spit all of the stats at me that you want - I know what I see watching him pitch. He's a head case. He pouts when he gets hit. He loses composure. He crumbles under pressure. He is NOT a big game pitcher. He can be great, but at this point, the only team that he might be a #1 on would be the Nationals who have a joke of a pitching staff.

 

I think I am severly off the topic of Brian Roberts.

[inari]

You guys are right. Regular season numbers don't translate all of the time - good or bad. And 5 game series are crap shoots. I agree.

 

But! If I had to take my chances I would choose Sabathia and Carmona everytime over Z/Lilly. That's me though. I guess I gravitate towards the hard throwing guys.

 

And to correct myself, Lilly wasn't "hittable" in the sense that he gets rocked around. That's not what I meant to imply. He had a great WHIP because he didn't walk guys - so the larger portion of his whip is getting hit around. Which in the playoffs, when he's facing solid lineups he's going to be weakened. Especially if he's off - like we saw in the playoff game - then his pitches are even more hittable.

 

He had his best statistical season last year - right? But before last year, most would agree that he was a #3 pitcher at best. The guy had never had a winning season right? But overall, don't get me wrong, Lilly is a great player and a pitcher we need on this team.

 

As for Hill, you can spit all of the stats at me that you want - I know what I see watching him pitch. He's a head case. He pouts when he gets hit. He loses composure. He crumbles under pressure. He is NOT a big game pitcher. He can be great, but at this point, the only team that he might be a #1 on would be the Nationals who have a joke of a pitching staff.

 

I think I am severly off the topic of Brian Roberts.

 

You can't expect to keep your credibility after saying something like that.

[RynoHawk23]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

[Keener98]

You guys are right. Regular season numbers don't translate all of the time - good or bad. And 5 game series are crap shoots. I agree.

 

But! If I had to take my chances I would choose Sabathia and Carmona everytime over Z/Lilly. That's me though. I guess I gravitate towards the hard throwing guys.

 

And to correct myself, Lilly wasn't "hittable" in the sense that he gets rocked around. That's not what I meant to imply. He had a great WHIP because he didn't walk guys - so the larger portion of his whip is getting hit around. Which in the playoffs, when he's facing solid lineups he's going to be weakened. Especially if he's off - like we saw in the playoff game - then his pitches are even more hittable.

 

He had his best statistical season last year - right? But before last year, most would agree that he was a #3 pitcher at best. The guy had never had a winning season right? But overall, don't get me wrong, Lilly is a great player and a pitcher we need on this team.

 

As for Hill, you can spit all of the stats at me that you want - I know what I see watching him pitch. He's a head case. He pouts when he gets hit. He loses composure. He crumbles under pressure. He is NOT a big game pitcher. He can be great, but at this point, the only team that he might be a #1 on would be the Nationals who have a joke of a pitching staff.

 

I think I am severly off the topic of Brian Roberts.

 

 

You can't expect to keep your credibility after saying something like that.

 

That whole post might just have every cliche possible when talking about pitchers.

 

Lilly has never had a winning season till last year? Big deal. Lilly and Sabathia had the exact same whip last year.

[RammyFanny]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

Who cares?

 

We're arguing that he's an already good pitcher with the chance to get better, not a bonafide staff ace.

[wrigley23]

like i said, sori does not have the mental approach to be a leadoff hitter nor the baserunning skills. He has the mentality of a 3-5 hitter. He was put into a position that does not fit his mental approach. Why? because we did not have a good leadoff option. If we get one & then move sori down then our offense gets much better imo...especially w/ the addition of a lefty in fuko.

[RynoHawk23]

Nothin quite like comparing pitchers in two completely different leagues.

[inari]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

 

Teams that he would be the best or pretty much as good as their number one starter?

 

Washington (best)

Florida (best)

Kansas City (best)

St. Louis (best)

Texas (best)

Mets (best, assuming Pedro isn't healthy)

Baltimore (whether Bedard is there or not, they're pretty comparable)

San Francisco (We don't really know what to expect from Lincecum right now. He's on the same level as Cain at the moment)

Pittsburgh (As good as Snell)

Oakland (depending on the health of Harden)

 

And of course

 

The Cubs. He was probably our best pitcher last year.

 

Now I'd love to hear you tell me the teams he would be the 4th best starter on, since I believe it was you that called him a #4 starter.

Edited January 12, 2008 by inari

[Keener98]

like i said, sori does not have the mental approach to be a leadoff hitter nor the baserunning skills. He has the mentality of a 3-5 hitter. He was put into a position that does not fit his mental approach. Why? because we did not have a good leadoff option. If we get one & then move sori down then our offense gets much better imo...especially w/ the addition of a lefty in fuko.

 

 

How do you know what Sorianos mentallity is? You called Soriano selfish for no reason at all. He posted a near 900 OPS, Soriano was not a problem.

[wrigley23]

my opinion was that he was for the reasons stated above. that is my opinion & that is what matters to me.

[inari]

like i said, sori does not have the mental approach to be a leadoff hitter nor the baserunning skills. He has the mentality of a 3-5 hitter. He was put into a position that does not fit his mental approach. Why? because we did not have a good leadoff option. If we get one & then move sori down then our offense gets much better imo...especially w/ the addition of a lefty in fuko.

 

You're as qualified as I am to discuss Soriano's mental approach to the game. He put up the numbers, that's all I care about. I'd prefer he batted fifth, but it's not the end of the world if he leads off again.

[RynoHawk23]

"Lilly or Hill would be #1's on a lot of staffs around baseball." - Tomy 23

 

That's who is arguing that point and said I lost all credibility by saying that Hill might be a #1 on the Nationals - and that's pushing it.

 

So i asked which teams he would be the #1 pitcher and anchor of the staff. Fair question. Prove me wrong.

[Keener98]

Nothin quite like comparing pitchers in two completely different leagues.

 

Nothing like making comments about a pitchers mental state, which you have no idea what it is. Hill was in his first full season in the majors, and was a top 30 pitcher in the entire ML's. If you dont think thats good then I dont know what to tell you.

[inari]

Nothin quite like comparing pitchers in two completely different leagues.

 

Nothing like making comments about a pitchers mental state, which you have no idea what it is. Hill was in his first full season in the majors, and was a top 30 pitcher in the entire ML's. If you dont think thats good then I dont know what to tell you.

 

You said it much better than I did.

[RammyFanny]

like i said, sori does not have the mental approach to be a leadoff hitter nor the baserunning skills. He has the mentality of a 3-5 hitter. He was put into a position that does not fit his mental approach. Why? because we did not have a good leadoff option. If we get one & then move sori down then our offense gets much better imo...especially w/ the addition of a lefty in fuko.

Jim Hendry, ladies and gentlemen.

 

Have you ever noticed Soriano's splits when not batting leadoff? He, for whatever reason, is a notoriously bad hitter whenever he bats out of the leadoff spot, and it's a pretty decent sample size to draw these conclusions on.

my opinion was that he was for the reasons stated above. that is my opinion & that is what matters to me.

So what's the point of discussing anything if you don't consider it and give it the chance to influence you?

[Keener98]

"Lilly or Hill would be #1's on a lot of staffs around baseball." - Tomy 23

 

That's who is arguing that point and said I lost all credibility by saying that Hill might be a #1 on the Nationals - and that's pushing it.

 

So i asked which teams he would be the #1 pitcher and anchor of the staff. Fair question. Prove me wrong.

 

 

Why dont you prove Hill cant handle pressure situations, and is mentally weak?

 

Rich Hill

Runners on 1st and 3rd-hitters had a .449 OPS A pressure situation

Runners in scoring position hitters had a .680 OPS A pressure situation

Close and late situation hitters had a .438 OPS A pressure situation

Runner on 3rd base hitters had a .443 OPS A pressure situation

Innings 7-9 hitters had a .536 OPS A pressure sitation

 

So show me your proof

[inari]

"Lilly or Hill would be #1's on a lot of staffs around baseball." - Tomy 23

 

That's who is arguing that point and said I lost all credibility by saying that Hill might be a #1 on the Nationals - and that's pushing it.

 

So i asked which teams he would be the #1 pitcher and anchor of the staff. Fair question. Prove me wrong.

 

 

Why dont you prove Hill cant handle pressure situations, and is mentally weak?

 

Rich Hill

Runners on 1st and 3rd-hitters had a .449 OPS A pressure situation

Runners in scoring position hitters had a .680 OPS A pressure situation

Close and late situation hitters had a .438 OPS A pressure situation

Runner on 3rd base hitters had a .443 OPS A pressure situation

Innings 7-9 hitters had a .536 OPS A pressure sitation

 

So show me your proof

 

He looked flustered too much and I didn't like his facial expressions!

[RynoHawk23]

Boston - 5th

NYY - 4th

Tigers - 4th

Cleveland - 3rd

Anaheim - 3rd or 4th

Arizona - 4th

Brewers - 3rd

 

Weird how my teams are the playoff/WS series contenders and your's are the crap teams of the national league or AL teams with no chance.

 

Rich Hill can be great. I hope he is great. But if you want to win the World Series, you need more and better pitchers than Rich Hill.

 

As for arguing his mental state - its a real thing if you've seen him pitch.

[UMFan83]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

 

Teams that he would be the best or pretty much as good as their number one starter?

 

Washington (best) Agree

Florida (best) Agree

Kansas City (best) Agree

St. Louis (best) Wainwright

Texas (best) Agree

Mets (best, assuming Pedro isn't healthy) Very debatable

Baltimore (whether Bedard is there or not, they're pretty comparable) Bedard is much better than Lilly

San Francisco (We don't really know what to expect from Lincecum right now. He's on the same level as Cain at the moment) No no no no no. Are we talking about Lilly?? Better than Lincecum and Cain??

Pittsburgh (As good as Snell) Disagree

Oakland (depending on the health of Harden) Like you said depending.

 

And of course

 

The Cubs. He was probably our best pitcher last year.

 

Now I'd love to hear you tell me the teams he would be the 4th best starter on, since I believe it was you that called him a #4 starter.

 

Seriously, Ted Lilly? He was great last year I agree. But c'mon, 4.46 ERA and 1.33 Career WHIP. You really think he put it together finally at age 31 in his 9th season?

[Keener98]

Boston - 5th

NYY - 4th

Tigers - 4th

Cleveland - 3rd

Anaheim - 3rd or 4th

Arizona - 4th

Brewers - 3rd

 

Weird how my teams are the playoff/WS series contenders and your's are the crap teams of the national league or AL teams with no chance.

 

Rich Hill can be great. I hope he is great. But if you want to win the World Series, you need more and better pitchers than Rich Hill.

 

As for arguing his mental state - its a real thing if you've seen him pitch.

 

 

Well Rich Hill isnt this teams number 1 starter. Good luck finding more and better pitchers, who are making what Rich Hill is, and are available. Rich Hill was one of the top 30 pitchers last year in all of MLB.

[inari]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

 

Teams that he would be the best or pretty much as good as their number one starter?

 

Washington (best) Agree

Florida (best) Agree

Kansas City (best) Agree

St. Louis (best) Wainwright

Texas (best) Agree

Mets (best, assuming Pedro isn't healthy) Very debatable

Baltimore (whether Bedard is there or not, they're pretty comparable) Bedard is much better than Lilly

San Francisco (We don't really know what to expect from Lincecum right now. He's on the same level as Cain at the moment) No no no no no. Are we talking about Lilly?? Better than Lincecum and Cain??

Pittsburgh (As good as Snell) Disagree

Oakland (depending on the health of Harden) Like you said depending.

 

And of course

 

The Cubs. He was probably our best pitcher last year.

 

Now I'd love to hear you tell me the teams he would be the 4th best starter on, since I believe it was you that called him a #4 starter.

 

Seriously, Ted Lilly? He was great last year I agree. But c'mon, 4.46 ERA and 1.33 Career WHIP. You really think he put it together finally at age 31 in his 9th season?

 

Er. That as supposed to be about Hill.

[inari]

Boston - 5th

NYY - 4th

Tigers - 4th

Cleveland - 3rd

Anaheim - 3rd or 4th

Arizona - 4th

Brewers - 3rd

 

Weird how my teams are the playoff/WS series contenders and your's are the crap teams of the national league or AL teams with no chance.

 

Rich Hill can be great. I hope he is great. But if you want to win the World Series, you need more and better pitchers than Rich Hill.

 

As for arguing his mental state - its a real thing if you've seen him pitch.

 

Real things are quantified by statistics. If his body language doesn't allow runs I don't really care.

[UMFan83]

Tell me which teams he would legitamitely be a the #1 starter and anchor of a staff.

 

Teams that he would be the best or pretty much as good as their number one starter?

 

Washington (best) Agree

Florida (best) Agree

Kansas City (best) Agree

St. Louis (best) Wainwright

Texas (best) Agree

Mets (best, assuming Pedro isn't healthy) Very debatable

Baltimore (whether Bedard is there or not, they're pretty comparable) Bedard is much better than Lilly

San Francisco (We don't really know what to expect from Lincecum right now. He's on the same level as Cain at the moment) No no no no no. Are we talking about Lilly?? Better than Lincecum and Cain??

Pittsburgh (As good as Snell) Disagree

Oakland (depending on the health of Harden) Like you said depending.

 

And of course

 

The Cubs. He was probably our best pitcher last year.

 

Now I'd love to hear you tell me the teams he would be the 4th best starter on, since I believe it was you that called him a #4 starter.

 

Seriously, Ted Lilly? He was great last year I agree. But c'mon, 4.46 ERA and 1.33 Career WHIP. You really think he put it together finally at age 31 in his 9th season?

 

Er. That as supposed to be about Hill.

 

Oh haha. Well my comments in quotes still stand. I cannot agree that Rich Hill is better than Cain, Lincecum, Wainwright, Snell, etc.