MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[inari]

This is disappointing. We are basically bringing back the same team as last year with more dependency on unproven players like Pie and Soto. (although it probably isn't very hard to outperform our '07 catching situation) Fukudome at best replaces the production we got from Jones/Floyd. Theriot is still a starting player. (I'm praying for Ronny Cedeno to have a ridiculous spring training)

 

I think you can hope for improvement from Soriano, Lee and Ramirez. But we already saw what this team can do in the playoffs - not much without a legitimate #1a/#2 starter.

 

Basically we are resigned to try to win the NL Central again and even that is questionable and not saying much league wide.

 

Even if we brought Roberts, we'd still be relying on Pie and Soto. Fukudome is going to be much better than Jones/Floyd.

 

And again with needing a #1a/#2 starter? We've got Rich Hill, Carlos, Zambrano, and Ted Lilly. We don't need starters for the front of the rotation. We need some for the back.

[RynoHawk23]

The point being that there is no measurable gain from Fukudome and Jones/Floyd. Maybe defense, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Well if Levine didn't completely shut the door, then I'll step back from the ledge a little.

 

So, you're telling me there's a chance.

[RammyFanny]

The point being that there is no measurable gain from Fukudome and Jones/Floyd. Maybe defense, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Well if Levine didn't completely shut the door, then I'll step back from the ledge a little.

 

So, you're telling me there's a chance.

Or there's always the chance that we could acquire another effective player who's name isn't Brian Roberts.

[inari]

The point being that there is no measurable gain from Fukudome and Jones/Floyd. Maybe defense, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

Well if Levine didn't completely shut the door, then I'll step back from the ledge a little.

 

So, you're telling me there's a chance.

 

But there is going to be a measurable gain in offense and there's no reason to think there won't be.

[Keener98]

This is disappointing. We are basically bringing back the same team as last year with more dependency on unproven players like Pie and Soto. (although it probably isn't very hard to outperform our '07 catching situation) Fukudome at best replaces the production we got from Jones/Floyd. Theriot is still a starting player. (I'm praying for Ronny Cedeno to have a ridiculous spring training)

 

I think you can hope for improvement from Soriano, Lee and Ramirez. But we already saw what this team can do in the playoffs - not much without a legitimate #1a/#2 starter.

 

Basically we are resigned to try to win the NL Central again and even that is questionable and not saying much league wide.

 

 

Getting production from the catchers spot will be a huge upgrade from last season. Also being able to stop singles from automatically being doubles will help also. Fukudome should top the production form Jones/Floyd. Hopefully like you said Cedeno tears up spring, and can overtake Theriot.

 

The playoffs are a crap shoot. Our pitching was one of the tops in the league last year, but they struggled when it mattered most. Our offense was basically horrible all year, and it continued in the playoffs. Our 1-3 starters have just as good as chance at shutting somebody down as most other teams 1-3, dont look into that series with the DBacks too much.

 

Going into every season every team is trying to win, and nothing is a guarantee. As it stands right now, the Brewers and us are the favorites for the division, and both teams should be near the top of the NL.

[Mephistopheles]

Fuku is a significant upgrade from our RF production last year.

[wrigley23]

our offense is horrible because it is a lineup full of free swingers & bad baserunners. We helped our plate discipline by the addition of fukodome. If that is the only offensive improvement then that will not be enough. The Red Sox are a team based on patient hitters that work the count in order to tap the other teams bullpen. We are built to keep the starter in the game. Until that changes, we will go nowhere again. Soriano leading off is a selfish move on his part just like his at bats are. To go from Roberts to Lieber & Byrd is a joke.

[RammyFanny]

Fuku is a significant upgrade from our RF production last year.

In terms of defense and some slugging, yes. However, people are raving about how much we need his dose of OBP when last year our RF'ers put up an OBP of .373 IIRC. I don't think we can expect Fuku to blow that out of the water, but yes, he does bring other improvements that I think have gone little unnoticed.

[RynoHawk23]

Sorry to harp on the #1a/#2 starter. Did you actually watch Lilly and Hill pitch against Arizona? ARIZONA! I can't even imagine what Boston's lineup would have done to them. Hell the Rockies would have crushed them. Plus, who would have pitched a game 4? Marquis?!? The reason we were 5 outs away from a World Series, were Kerry Wood & Mark Prior - two #1's. That allowed for Zambrano to be a #3 and Clement to be a #4.

 

The only team (of recent history - 2000's) that I can think of that didn't have top 2 starters and win a World Series, was St. Louis.

 

I guess its what I've seen that is tried and true. Pitching wins. But, you need a lineup that can beat the other guys pitching. I thought Roberts would be the right move for us. Allows Lou to use DeRosa/Theriot at SS/MI. Bench is deeper. More versatility. More speed. All star caliber player. Allows for real consideration to move Soriano down in the lineup.

 

Just very disappointing. But I realize we need more pitching than hitting.

[Keener98]

Fuku is a significant upgrade from our RF production last year.

 

Agreed, and Soto should be a pretty big upgrade over Kendall. Pie is the biggest question mark on this team, and if Cedeno could beat out Theriot and produce anywhere near his AAA numbers, we can live with Pies struggles.

[inari]

our offense is horrible because it is a lineup full of free swingers & bad baserunners. We helped our plate discipline by the addition of fukodome. If that is the only offensive improvement then that will not be enough. The Red Sox are a team based on patient hitters that work the count in order to tap the other teams bullpen. We are built to keep the starter in the game. Until that changes, we will go nowhere again. Soriano leading off is a selfish move on his part just like his at bats are. To go from Roberts to Lieber & Byrd is a joke.

 

Bad baserunners? Our offense isn't great, but that has nothing to do with it. Who is a bad base runner? Soriano? For like a month at the beginning of the season. I wish we took more pitches, but this is not a terrible offense. There's one guy in it who is a terrible hitter, and he'd be in the lineup whether we got Roberts or not. And for as much as you talk about taking pitches, Roberts would be replacing the guy who took the most pitches on the Cubs last year.

[RammyFanny]

our offense is horrible because it is a lineup full of free swingers & bad baserunners. We helped our plate discipline by the addition of fukodome. If that is the only offensive improvement then that will not be enough. The Red Sox are a team based on patient hitters that work the count in order to tap the other teams bullpen. We are built to keep the starter in the game. Until that changes, we will go nowhere again. Soriano leading off is a selfish move on his part just like his at bats are. To go from Roberts to Lieber & Byrd is a joke.

Name me all of these "bad baserunners" that drag our offense to being horrible, when in fact, it's not.

[inari]

[/b]Sorry to harp on the #1a/#2 starter. Did you actually watch Lilly and Hill pitch against Arizona?[/b] ARIZONA! I can't even imagine what Boston's lineup would have done to them. Hell the Rockies would have crushed them. Plus, who would have pitched a game 4? Marquis?!? The reason we were 5 outs away from a World Series, were Kerry Wood & Mark Prior - two #1's. That allowed for Zambrano to be a #3 and Clement to be a #4.

 

Did you actually watch them the rest of the season? I'd have to assume no.

[Keener98]

our offense is horrible because it is a lineup full of free swingers & bad baserunners. We helped our plate discipline by the addition of fukodome. If that is the only offensive improvement then that will not be enough. The Red Sox are a team based on patient hitters that work the count in order to tap the other teams bullpen. We are built to keep the starter in the game. Until that changes, we will go nowhere again. Soriano leading off is a selfish move on his part just like his at bats are. To go from Roberts to Lieber & Byrd is a joke.

 

 

Our lineup as it stands right now is not horrible. Please tell me why Soriano leading off is a selfish move? There has been no proof that Soriano was unwilling to move down in the lineup. Soriano has done what Lou has asked him to do since he got here, and anyways, Soriano leading off last year wasnt really the problem with the Cubs offense.

[Keener98]

[/b]Sorry to harp on the #1a/#2 starter. Did you actually watch Lilly and Hill pitch against Arizona?[/b] ARIZONA! I can't even imagine what Boston's lineup would have done to them. Hell the Rockies would have crushed them. Plus, who would have pitched a game 4? Marquis?!? The reason we were 5 outs away from a World Series, were Kerry Wood & Mark Prior - two #1's. That allowed for Zambrano to be a #3 and Clement to be a #4.

 

Did you actually watch them the rest of the season? I'd have to assume no.

 

 

Their 1 start in the playoffs means more than the rest of the year, duh.

[wrigley23]

yeah it was. he does not show the patience needed, working the count, smart baserunning needed of leadoff hitters. Also, he has more of a 3-5 hitter swing as he is an aggressive hitter. There was a reason why fuko was added & we were chasing roberts & now a possible figgins. This team lacks patient hitters up & down the lineup. Another year of Soriano leading off by swinging at the first pitch, flailing at high strikes, outside strikes ala shawn dunston & pulling hammy's, running through stop signs...means another one & out for the Cub.

[Schwarber Fan]

I remember when the first Roberts thread was started and it was something like: "Finally, a real rumor: Brian Roberts", and it was all completely just an idea, and people (including myself were bashing the poster because it wasn't actually a rumor. I can't imagine reading through this entire thread...

 

idea: Roberts to Cubs -> Cubs interested in Roberts -> Cubs/O's discussing Roberts -> Roberts named in Mitchell Report -> Cubs interest in Roberts not effected by Mitchell report -> deal should be done after the new year -> deal should be done by the end of the week -> deal should be by tonight -> O's insider loses insider status... it was all leak-baiting -> deal still could happen -> deal is awaiting Angelo's approval -> Deal is in MLB officies -> DEAL IS DONE per O's Hangout ("multiple sources") -> MacPhail denies it -> Deal fell through -> O's want Pie/Hill/Marmol? -> Deal still possible -> Indians offer better package -> 0% chance of deal being done.

 

What a waste of time.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Rondon Fan

[RynoHawk23]

Did you watch the rest of the season? Lilly was great, but very hittable. Hill is a head case and very inconsistent from start to start. Marquis had his moments but largely unreliable. Marshall has potential but didn't come up big in pressure situations, thus being untrustworthy by Lou.

 

I know we had the best starters during the regular season, but you can hide marginal starters during the course of a full season because of matchups. The Playoffs are a different animal, the matchups - for the most part - is your best guy vs their best guy and on down. Please remember we had the best starters in the National League, by far right now the weaker division.

 

I'm talking in terms of winning a championship. If you are content with winning a subpar division and possibly lucking out in a 5 game series and then losing in the NLCS, then yes, we can take our chances with the team we have.

 

I'd like to compete with Boston, NYY, Tigers, and Cleveland.

[inari]

yeah it was. he does not show the patience needed, working the count, smart baserunning needed of leadoff hitters. Also, he has more of a 3-5 hitter swing as he is an aggressive hitter. There was a reason why fuko was added & we were chasing roberts & now a possible figgins. This team lacks patient hitters up & down the lineup. Another year of Soriano leading off by swinging at the first pitch, flailing at high strikes, outside strikes ala shawn dunston & pulling hammy's, running through stop signs...means another one & out for the Cub.

 

So he should completely change his approach because he's the leadoff hitter? Otherwise he's selfish? His OPS was right near .900 last year. He's fine. And he's done absolutely everything Lou asked him to.

[Keener98]

Did you watch the rest of the season? Lilly was great, but very hittable. Hill is a head case and very inconsistent from start to start. Marquis had his moments but largely unreliable. Marshall has potential but didn't come up big in pressure situations, thus being untrustworthy by Lou.

 

I know we had the best starters during the regular season, but you can hide marginal starters during the course of a full season because of matchups. The Playoffs are a different animal, the matchups - for the most part - is your best guy vs their best guy and on down. Please remember we had the best starters in the National League, by far right now the weaker division.

 

I'm talking in terms of winning a championship. If you are content with winning a subpar division and possibly lucking out in a 5 game series and then losing in the NLCS, then yes, we can take our chances with the team we have.

 

I'd like to compete with Boston, NYY, Tigers, and Cleveland.

 

 

You are looking wayyyyyy to much into the series against Arizona. Let me ask you this, how many of those games do we win if our starters only give up 3 runs? Offense was the problem not the pitching. Playoffs and short series are crap shoots, thats it.

[inari]

Did you watch the rest of the season? Lilly was great, but very hittable. Hill is a head case and very inconsistent from start to start. Marquis had his moments but largely unreliable. Marshall has potential but didn't come up big in pressure situations, thus being untrustworthy by Lou.

 

I know we had the best starters during the regular season, but you can hide marginal starters during the course of a full season because of matchups. The Playoffs are a different animal, the matchups - for the most part - is your best guy vs their best guy and on down. Please remember we had the best starters in the National League, by far right now the weaker division.

 

I'm talking in terms of winning a championship. If you are content with winning a subpar division and possibly lucking out in a 5 game series and then losing in the NLCS, then yes, we can take our chances with the team we have.

 

I'd like to compete with Boston, NYY, Tigers, and Cleveland.

 

Lilly was very hittable? His WHIP was 1.14. He didn't allow a lot of hits and he didn't allow a lot of walks. So no, he wasn't very hittable. Hill was among the league leaders in strikeouts and also put up an outstanding WHIP. And we're not talking about Marquis and Marshall. You said we needed "#2 starters." Lilly or Hill would be #1's on a lot of staffs around baseball. And they'd be #2's on almost all of them. Lilly will probably regress, but there's absolutely no reason to think Hill won't get better.

 

And no, what happened in the playoffs isn't relevant and it doesn't discount their accomplishments during the regular season. They picked bad times to have rough starts and it's as simple as that.

[anabiono]

god, i hope this thread doesn't mirror the upcoming season or even the rest of the offseason for that matter...

 

lots of action and nothing to show for it

[Keener98]

Damn, Cleveland better go out and find a new number 1 starter, because Sabathia sucked in the playoffs.

[WilcoFan]

 

I'm talking in terms of winning a championship. If you are content with winning a subpar division and possibly lucking out in a 5 game series and then losing in the NLCS, then yes, we can take our chances with the team we have.

 

I'd like to compete with Boston, NYY, Tigers, and Cleveland.

 

You realize that both Lilly and Hill were at least statistically equivalent, if not superior, to the #2s on each one of those teams except Cleveland, right? And Carmona had a 16.50 ERA in the ALCS last year. Apparently, being a "solid #2" doesn't always translate in a seven game series.

 

Most playoff series are won with luck. Lilly and Hill are fine where they are.

[anabiono]

too back those bloody diamondbacks got haren...he would have been a SWEET addition to our roster